Dad wants a (used) Luxury Sedan

[alimoalem]

**CLIFFS AT BOTTOM**

Some background: he's in his mid-40's, high level engineer for a big company, hasn't ever spent too much money on a car aside from our 2001 Sienna (bought new). Second most expensive car was a Camry back in like 1990 for ~$10k, also new. all other cars were cheaper and used.

I'm guessing he's thinking "I'm in my 40's, I get paid well, and I want to have a car with a name that has some luxury."

Price range: $30k and lower (I think preferably $27k and lower but he'll go higher if it's a good deal).
Year/Miles: No specifics but we've been looking at 2004+ and cars still under warranty (40k miles is the high we've been looking at.)
MPG: Same as the Sienna (19/24), better if possible.
Doors: 4 door (NO COUPES before anyone recommends one. We have a baby and coupes are pretty good at pissing you off when it comes to car seats)
Transmission: Manual or Automatic (no preference)

So far he like the E320/E350 the most (E500's MPG too low) and the S430. Prefers the look of the S430, but it's more expensive.

Doesn't want an Audi, though he did like the A4 rental he was given while on business in Germany (says it's for people that can't afford a Benz). He was looking at the BMW 5 Series a while ago...not sure why he doesn't want that. I think he's fairly set on German so no Lexus.

So, is there anything wrong with an E320/E350 or S430? Any specific years to avoid?

CLIFFS:
* Dad wants a used luxury sedan.
* Wants a Benz. Other manufacturer recommendations welcome BUT refer to full post before recommending another manufacturer, please
* Likes the E320/E350 (2004+) and S430 (2004+) so far.
* Car should be <$30k (around $27k or lower would be better), 2004 or newer, <40k miles, mpg around 19/24 or higher, SEDAN. Manual or Automatic transmission (no preference)
* We have a baby (read: car seat) and a family so no crap back seat with room for half a butt cheek and leg space for an amputee.
* Anything wrong with an E320/E350 or S430? Any specific year we should avoid?

All help will be greatly appreciated. If anyone owns a Benz, what are your experiences? Are you satisfied with it?

 

[fstime]

Too bad the E350 Bluetec is too new for it to be in his price range.

Sounds like it would of been perfect.


S430 is a very big car, ask him if he is sure he wants such a large car.

The E-Class is a much more well rounded ride, not to big, not too small, better for most people.

 

[alimoalem]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
Too bad the E350 Bluetec is too new for it to be in his price range.

Sounds like it would of been perfect.


S430 is a very big car, ask him if he is sure he wants such a large car.

The E-Class is a much more well rounded ride, not to big, not too small, better for most people.

Yea I was thinking the E-Class would be better suited for him but I mean my parents alternate between a Toyota Sienna (minivan) and a Mazda Protege (compact) when going to work so should he still feel it's a large car if he drives a minivan often?

He is leaning towards the E-Class at this point, though. The S-Class is more something to consider, atm.

 

[Fenixgoon]

dude, 2004-2005 Audi A8L's are selling $30kish...could also go with 2004-2005 A6 4.2 V8's (turbo V6 should be cheaper)

i have to recommend the audis on account of fanboyism

good luck in the car hunt, though! :beer:

 

[alimoalem]

Thanks for the post Fenixgoon.

I'll tell him about the A6. I'm not sure the A8 would be his style. The only problem is his perception of the brand, but we'll see what happens

 

[DonaldC]

I had a 2003 E320 and really liked it. Still kick myself for trading it on an AMG coupe.

 

[TimeKeeper]

05+ E will be good choice, and under warranty, if not over 50K miles.
In general, he can no longer DIY when going w/ Mercedes. ( 03 or newer model)
Engine oil quality will be monitor via sensor, generally wouldn't prompt you to service until 8500 miles. (besides, there is no dipstick for you to check)

Transmission OIL is life-time sealed. (no dipstick neither)

Brake Pad/ Rotor will not be able to replace by regular machanic who does NOT have STAR tools. ( SBC need to be disable by STAR or it will trigger error code and disable ESP, and caliper continue to pressure - disable main battery will not work, secondary battery kick in. If disable both battery, then you will need STAR to bring it back to life )

Fuel pump / PSI pressure / fuel filter is also monitor by sensor. Replacing them also require STAR tools to reset or the command will prevent you further driving.

Look at the bright side, only thing you can do when open the hood is to add Washer Fluid.
After all, we are driving luxury car to enjoy it.

p.s. W212 New E-class will debut summer of next year to replace the aging W211 ( W211 current E-class has been out since 2003, its design has been 6 years old already.)

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper
05+ E will be good choice, and under warranty, if not over 50K miles.
In general, he can no longer DIY when going w/ Mercedes. ( 03 or newer model)
Engine oil quality will be monitor via sensor, generally wouldn't prompt you to service until 8500 miles. (besides, there is no dipstick for you to check)

Transmission OIL is life-time sealed. (no dipstick neither)

Brake Pad/ Rotor will not be able to replace by regular machanic who does NOT have STAR tools. ( SBC need to be disable by STAR or it will trigger error code and disable ESP, and caliper continue to pressure - disable main battery will not work, secondary battery kick in. If disable both battery, then you will need STAR to bring it back to life )

Fuel pump / PSI pressure / fuel filter is also monitor by sensor. Replacing them also require STAR tools to reset or the command will prevent you further driving.

Look at the bright side, only thing you can do when open the hood is to add Washer Fluid.
After all, we are driving luxury car to enjoy it.

.

The transmission oil can be drained and refilled, there is simply no dipstick. I know on the older models, there is a slot where you can check the oil. You have to buy a special tool usually only used by MB techs. It looks like a very long dipstick and you only insert it to check your oil level then remove it after.

Everyone at the several MB forums says to go by the oil change calender, it is very accurate. The secret to their long oil intervals is the use of 0w-40 synthetic(unless they changed it,) and a fleece oil filter which is vastly superior to the can screw on types you get on most vehicles.

Also, if he finds the S430 has acceptable fuel mileage, he might as well go with the E500, should be around the same. Realistically, this is what your going to get with a V8 Mercedes. Around 15 mpg if you do all city and 20-24 mpg for highway cruising. What KILLS you is the ride on the highway is so forgiving that it is near impossible to stay around 55-65 so you find your self doing 75-85 which obviously hurts your mileage. I mean the car is designed for autobahn speeds, i've seen videos of passengers sleeping while doing 155 mph. Thats my personal experience.

 

[imported_K3N]

whatever happened to a FORD CROWN VICTORIA!!!1

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: K3N
whatever happened to a FORD CROWN VICTORIA!!!1

crappy v8 engine, boring exterior, definitely not going to have an interior to compare to a bmw/MB/audi, and a boat-like ride... am i missing something?

 

[alimoalem]

DonaldC: thanks for the post. it's good to hear a (previous) owner say something good about the car.

TimeKeeper: wow, i wasn't expecting that much limitation. overall it isn't totally unreliable though, right? it's just when you gotta replace something, you can't do it yourself? also, he's buying used, not new, so he won't be able to get the model coming out next year til like 4 years from now.

BouZouki: KBB had the E500 rated at 16/20 and the E500 4Matic at 17/25, which doesn't make sense. I checked Edmunds and it seems KBB had it switched. I'll let my dad know, but idk if it'll make a difference. I think the only reason he considered a V8 S-Class is that it's the smallest he could get for an S (S350's cost more than S430's where we are). we'll see though

K3N, i'm gonna have to agree with Fenixgoon

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: alimoalem

TimeKeeper: wow, i wasn't expecting that much limitation. overall it isn't totally unreliable though, right? it's just when you gotta replace something, you can't do it yourself? also, he's buying used, not new, so he won't be able to get the model coming out next year til like 4 years from now.

I have been through W124C, W210 and now W211 since 1988 and I really found them very reliable. I am about the age as your father, and I would think he might not want to get his hand dirty anymore? Plus, I doubt your father is going on street race, but more of comfort crusing and feeling good about himself.

 

[alimoalem]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper
I have been through W124C, W210 and now W211 since 1988 and I really found them very reliable. I am about the age as your father, and I would think he might not want to get his hand dirty anymore? Plus, I doubt your father is going on street race, but more of comfort crusing and feeling good about himself.

you pretty much got both points spot on.

as for the benz's u've owned, when did you part with them and what were the reasons?

 

[woodie1]

I owned a 2002 E320 and found it to be a fairly reliable car. One of the dash A/C vents didn't work right but no other problems. It was a great highway car. You could drive 12-14 hours a day without stress on the car or yourself.

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: alimoalem

as for the benz's u've owned, when did you part with them and what were the reasons?

I sold them just because I want fresh look after years of ownership. NOTHING wrong w/ them at all. ( Their design used to last 10 years, but now has shorten to 7 years )

Are they really more expensive to own? I honestly don't think so.
I bet many of you change cars every 3 years or less, and I am only on my 3rd car in 20 years.

 

[alimoalem]

Originally posted by: TimeKeeper

Originally posted by: alimoalem

as for the benz's u've owned, when did you part with them and what were the reasons?

I sold them just because I want fresh look after years of ownership. NOTHING wrong w/ them at all. ( Their design used to last 10 years, but now has shorten to 7 years )

Are they really more expensive to own? I honestly don't think so.
I bet many of you change cars every 3 years or less, and I am only on my 3rd car in 20 years.

i'm just curious as it doesn't matter since he'll be getting one anyway but how much does an oil change cost? and are non-dealer mechanic shops significantly cheaper?

i think my dad'll be happy with what AT has had to say

 

[caspur]

Edit- I think that was too harsh. He's still a poseur though.

 

[alimoalem]

Originally posted by: caspur
Edit- I think that was too harsh. He's still a poseur though.

um i didn't read ur unedited post...what did you say? lol

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: alimoalem

i'm just curious as it doesn't matter since he'll be getting one anyway but how much does an oil change cost? and are non-dealer mechanic shops significantly cheaper?

i think my dad'll be happy with what AT has had to say

It was really never just oil change.
Take my last FSS+ service for example, which is about little over 12 month ago. (that was the last time, my car was in service-haven't change oil since)

Oild and filter change.
Replaced Engine Air Filters,
Replaced Dust Filter
Replaced Brake Fluid,
C Campaign 024828: replace voltage regulator
D Campaign 2006040004: clean sleeves on front axle carrier and install new bolts and washer.
Total was $539.23

My next FSS schedule service is due in 582 miles.

 

[alimoalem]

so that's pretty much just the yearly cost for maintenance? it's like an every 10k miles/12 months type thing? or am i off?

and first 50k miles is free for this or does that cover other stuff?

 

[TimeKeeper]

Originally posted by: alimoalem
so that's pretty much just the yearly cost for maintenance? it's like an every 10k miles/12 months type thing? or am i off?

and first 50k miles is free for this or does that cover other stuff?

That's what I have spend since last year w/ 8500+ miles. OTHER than new set of tires ( I got those from Goodyear SVC center, not MB Dealer)

FSS service is not mileage dependent, it is Sensor reading dependent. ( many lead-foot MB member has their FSS warning only after 4500 miles.)

Unfortunately, there is no FREE service, but I heard there is free maintaince service for leasing program.

 

[alpineranger]

Why doesn't he go for a lease? You get to drive a new luxury car for a lesser cash outlay and one that's guaranteed not to leave you holding the bag if something goes terribly wrong. I think they even cover maintenance and wear and tear items. That's the thing about these high end luxury cars - they are great until stuff starts breaking and it's out of warranty. Mercedes quality isn't what it used to be and I'd be really hesitant about getting a used benz newer than one from the early-mid 90s.

In a few years, mainstream cars will probably have the same level of luxury as luxury models do today, and the prestige that goes along with the name will have dulled some. I'm not a fan of leases and would probably never get one myself but this is one of the few cases where it seems like a good idea.

more info:
your dad might want to take a closer look at the fuel economy numbers. According to epa estimates www.fueleconomy.gov a 2004 2wd sienna (17/25) does better than a 2004 2wd e320 (17/24) and s430 (16/24). Additionally the toyota takes regular while the others need premium. I believe premium is a requirement for every mercedes.

I'd make sure your dad is fully aware of the costs involved in running the sort of car he's looking for. Your description of him makes it seem like he's very cost conscious and these sort of points would bother him. Figure additional costs for insurance and seemingly simple things like tires (compared to an older camry or sienna, figure perhaps twice or three times as much), along with all the other miscellaneous maintenance and repair costs and I think the argument for a lease becomes that much stronger - you know ahead of time what you're going to have to pay and you won't be caught by surprise.

 

[alimoalem]

thanks for the detailed post alpineranger.

the current lease deal for the E350 is for 27 months and comes out to $19,818 total by the end of the lease, according to the site. so for a little over 2 years of use, and only 10k miles a year (15k miles would be a minimum for us), he'll pay over 2/3rd the cost of a used one. it doesn't really come out as a good deal for him in the end.

i had forgotten that site's name (fueleconomy.gov) so thanks for reminding me . i checked and the according to the site, the annual fuel cost of the E320 and E350 is $2475 using premium fuel and that of the Sienna is $2422. we have a 2001 sienna (apparently it gets worse gas mileage than the 2004?). the S430 is estimated to cost $2604 per year in fuel. that's almost a 10% difference, so that may make a difference for my dad.

about the costs, i'm trying to figure out how much roughly it'll cost per year. tires we don't won't worry too much about (unless they're 18") 'cause our uncle has a mechanic shop (doesn't do benz's but tires are tires) and he gets them a lot cheaper than tirerack.com. according to other AT posters, though, tires seem to be the only thing we can really change so if anyone knows what parts aside from general wear items go out first, your help would be appreciated.

 

[alimoalem]

i don't think we've had a car for less than 150k miles so if people could give some info on what'll start going out after warranty through 175k miles and the costs of services/brakes/other wear items, that'd be appreciated.

 

[alpineranger]

well, if you can do all the service yourself or have a friend/relative do it for you then the cost differential becomes much less. But another issue with these newer MB cars is they really go to great lengths to discourage anyone but the dealer to do any work on them (MB is not alone in this). I'm sure it's a huge profit generator for the dealerships.

Like I said, I'm generally against leases. Reason why is because for leasing just an average, everyday car to get around you pay a lot for no equity and you have stupid things like mileage limits. I just need a reliable vehicle that will give me the freedom to go wherever I want and do whatever I want for the lowest cost. That definitely does not describe a lease. Your dad's situation is different. He wants the prestige and luxury of a newer luxury car, but he's concerned about costs. With a lease you keep the costs under control whereas if you buy, get out of warranty and stuff starts breaking you could be in for a big bill (caveat: unless you do the work yourself, as I mentioned before). So you get a new car, with maximum "utility" vis a vis status and luxury, and much fewer of the downsides that go along with it. Sure you're paying for depreciation, but you'll get hit with that even with purchasing a late model used car - you just don't see it right away. Based on the value of somewhat older E series cars I think that the future will not be kind.

That brings up another possibility: why not get a mid 90's E series. They still look reasonably modern and if you don't mind a high mileage example you can get one for a fraction of the $30k budget. For $8-10k you can get a 98-00 E class. Sure it will have high miles but if it were me the price difference would be too compelling - only 4-6 years older but 1/3 the price. Of course the car won't be under warranty but then again, you have very little warranty left on a 04-06 and the statistical likelihood that something will break before it expires is small.