Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
- May 14, 2012
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You write it off as allegory. It really isn't. But you're free to do that, sir.
Read Isaiah 40 in its entirety. Then tell me it's not allegory.
You write it off as allegory. It really isn't. But you're free to do that, sir.
Read Isaiah 40 in its entirety. Then tell me it's not allegory.
Why didn't you respond to the part about evidence of a creator?
The Hebrew implies nothingness,
What evidence is that?.
There are an estimated 10 quadrillion of these nanomachines at work in the human body turning over your body weight (and much more depending on what you're doing) in ATP everyday until you die.
How is it that an unintelligent, random process can create such a marvel, when our most brilliant minds could not even dream of doing so?
To understand it, you have to be able to look beyond the "I have to see it to believe it" attitude. If you can't/won't, it will NEVER make an ounce of sense to you.
Rob, you're the one trying to claim there's science in there, not me.
Carfax: Lack of understanding of a natural process is not evidence of a supernatural one. There was a time nobody understood things that today we take for granted.
I agree, the Bible isn't a scientific text -- but the comments it has made scientifically, has been accurate.
The comments seem that way to you due to cherry-picking and favorable interpretation, as well as ignoring all of the passages that are clearly and wholly unscientific (of which there are hundreds).
It's not. Prophetic? Sure.
To understand it, you have to be able to look beyond the "I have to see it to believe it" attitude. If you can't/won't, it will NEVER make an ounce of sense to you.
Carfax: Lack of understanding of a natural process is not evidence of a supernatural one. There was a time nobody understood things that today we take for granted.
I can't speak for Charles but I'm from Missouri; you do have to "Show Me"! Just kidding.
The Earth being round (or somewhat pear-shaped) isn't an idea that's unique to the Bible; the ancient Greeks had that idea as well. There may indeed be other ancient civilizations (Sumeria, etc.) whose scholars thought that the Earth was round. Who's to say?
:thumbsup:
I hear that. But the Bible stated it as fact, though. It didn't say things like "maybe".. or "possibly" or "ideally". There was massive speculation that it was flat back then. But.. I hear what you mean, though.
If you want, you can show me some.
What natural process? You first have to identify the natural process that you think is responsible for the things I listed..
But there is no natural process capable of such things, and for obvious reasons.
That lifeless matter can spontaneously self organize into far more complex structures and become living creatures endowed with consciousness is even more absurd than the example I listed above with the pile of aluminum, steel, rubber etc turning into a car or an airplane after 10 million years..
It's also apparent that you have "faith" that Science will eventually find a natural process capable of creating such amazing and complex structures.
What natural process? You first have to identify the natural process that you think is responsible for the things I listed..
But there is no natural process capable of such things, and for obvious reasons.
If you take some aluminum, steel, rubber, oil, glass etc and place them in a pile together and leave it for a 10 million years, will you get a car or an airplane?
Of course not, but thats essentially what you're saying in a way, except with living creatures it's far worse because they are a million times more complex than any machine humans have made..
That lifeless matter can spontaneously self organize into far more complex structures and become living creatures endowed with consciousness is even more absurd than the example I listed above with the pile of aluminum, steel, rubber etc turning into a car or an airplane after 10 million years..
It's also apparent that you have "faith" that Science will eventually find a natural process capable of creating such amazing and complex structures.
Jesus' birth almost certainly didn't coincide with Saturnalia or other midwinter festivals. Just as one of the Popes used his authority as G-d's vicar on Earth to transfer the holiness of the Sabbath to the first, early Christians co-opted many pagan holidays and festivals. If you want to get converts, it helps to be available when they aren't working. Plus, once they are nominally converts, you can keep an eye on what they are doing during those holidays.I can't speak for Charles but I'm from Missouri; you do have to "Show Me"! Just kidding.
The Earth being round (or somewhat pear-shaped) isn't an idea that's unique to the Bible; the ancient Greeks had that idea as well. There may indeed be other ancient civilizations (Sumeria, etc.) whose scholars thought that the Earth was round. Who's to say?
I do think that the Bibles authors and ancient Christianity did play fast and loose with regards to the "borrowing" of concepts from other mythologies. That Jesus' "birth" coincided with and ultimately supplanted Saturnalia (the Roman festival celebrating Winter Solstice) even though scholars put his "birth date" in March because of star positions, etc.; the incorporation of elements of Celtic mythology into Christianity. To me these speak to a "takeover" of other belief systems or mythology by Christianity in order to be more acceptable to a just conquered populace. Even when Rome converted to Christianity; for a time the Roman gods and goddesses were substituted with Christian saints in the temples during the transition stage.
Christianity was the "winner" in the assimilation wars fought 2000 years ago; that doesn't necessarily make Bible true and factual.
Well when you're trying to convince people or peoples that what you say is true you generally don't use words like "maybe", "probably", etc. Besides, they weren't trying to teach people Bible-based science, they were trying to transition them from a polytheistic belief system to a monotheistic system.
Did you read the rest of my post? I'm not pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining.
I know I just looked at this thread but you've got a be trolling.1) Complex specific information encoded in DNA for which no natural process can account for.
2) Extreme fine tuning in the forces that govern and maintain the Universe and make Life possible.
3) The Universe has a cause in the event known as the Big Bang, for which Science has no explanation how and why it occurred.
4) The Existence of Consciousness which enables living creatures to perceive and experience reality.
5) The overwhelming complexity and order of living creatures, which contain nanotechnology which far surpass anything man can create by many orders of magnitude.
The example I gave before in this thread were ATP synthase, which are molecular (200,000 times smaller than a pin head) rotary machines capable of converting electrochemical energy into rotational energy, and finally into chemical energy. It can also do it in reverse.
There are an estimated 10 quadrillion of these nanomachines at work in the human body turning over your body weight (and much more depending on what you're doing) in ATP everyday until you die.
How is it that an unintelligent, random process can create such a marvel, when our most brilliant minds could not even dream of doing so?
Honestly, where to begin? I mean, even leaving aside the literally thousands of claims of miracles that violate the laws of physics, the bible is just chock full of unscientific references. From pi being equal to 3, to the earth "standing" on things, to implying that the sun goes around the earth.
Jesus' birth almost certainly didn't coincide with Saturnalia or other midwinter festivals. Just as one of the Popes used his authority as G-d's vicar on Earth to transfer the holiness of the Sabbath to the first, early Christians co-opted many pagan holidays and festivals. If you want to get converts, it helps to be available when they aren't working. Plus, once they are nominally converts, you can keep an eye on what they are doing during those holidays.
...but, we have to look beyond what we can see/understand. If you don't believe in God, you wont get passed that. And if you examine the proof beyond flawed human and scientific reasoning, it becomes easier.
Just goes to show there is nothing so pure than man cannot fuck it up.Not to mention being able to pray to G-d whenever and wherever you wanted; as well as all the other benies. Truly a common mans' deity.
Sorry, really not following you here.
Likewise, I am fascinated with outer-space, personally. And when I look deeply into it, I wonder who organized that stuff out there. I know we (humans) didn't, but I know someone did. I mean, it's just too organized (our solar system) for me to write it off as a result of nuclear chaos.
I am not good at explaining stuff, but I will try...
For instance, if you had a juicer and you were like "dang, how can it extract the juice and leave the rest of the fruit ready for disposal?" I recently brought one and am amazed by that.
Anyway, the first thing we normally think about is the person or people who designed/built the thing and give them credit for their ingenuity. We don't know how to make one of those, but we do give them credit.
Likewise, I am fascinated with outer-space, personally. And when I look deeply into it, I wonder who organized that stuff out there. I know we (humans) didn't, but I know someone did. I mean, it's just too organized (our solar system) for me to write it off as a result of nuclear chaos.
That's just how I come to conclusions...