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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
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Read Isaiah 40 in its entirety. Then tell me it's not allegory.
It's not. Prophetic? Sure.

To understand it, you have to be able to look beyond the "I have to see it to believe it" attitude. If you can't/won't, it will NEVER make an ounce of sense to you.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,064
868
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What evidence is that?.
1) Complex specific information encoded in DNA for which no natural process can account for.

2) Extreme fine tuning in the forces that govern and maintain the Universe and make Life possible.

3) The Universe has a cause in the event known as the Big Bang, for which Science has no explanation how and why it occurred.

4) The Existence of Consciousness which enables living creatures to perceive and experience reality.

5) The overwhelming complexity and order of living creatures, which contain nanotechnology which far surpass anything man can create by many orders of magnitude.

The example I gave before in this thread were ATP synthase, which are molecular (200,000 times smaller than a pin head) rotary machines capable of converting electrochemical energy into rotational energy, and finally into chemical energy. It can also do it in reverse.

There are an estimated 10 quadrillion of these nanomachines at work in the human body turning over your body weight (and much more depending on what you're doing) in ATP everyday until you die.

How is it that an unintelligent, random process can create such a marvel, when our most brilliant minds could not even dream of doing so?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
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There are an estimated 10 quadrillion of these nanomachines at work in the human body turning over your body weight (and much more depending on what you're doing) in ATP everyday until you die.

How is it that an unintelligent, random process can create such a marvel, when our most brilliant minds could not even dream of doing so?
This is basically it.

Nothing so orderly, intelligent, and purposeful just "comes" about.

I guess the "physically unprovable" in accredited to blind chance.

Humans need to look beyond their own abilities and understanding sometimes - which is horribly flawed (seen our political system, lately?)

I guess if they can't do it, it can't be done by someone else.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
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To understand it, you have to be able to look beyond the "I have to see it to believe it" attitude. If you can't/won't, it will NEVER make an ounce of sense to you.
Rob, you're the one trying to claim there's science in there, not me. :)

Carfax: Lack of understanding of a natural process is not evidence of a supernatural one. There was a time nobody understood things that today we take for granted.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
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Rob, you're the one trying to claim there's science in there, not me. :)

Carfax: Lack of understanding of a natural process is not evidence of a supernatural one. There was a time nobody understood things that today we take for granted.
I agree, the Bible isn't a scientific text -- but the comments it has made scientifically, has been accurate. It was written before science has become anywhere near what it is today.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I agree, the Bible isn't a scientific text -- but the comments it has made scientifically, has been accurate.
The comments seem that way to you due to cherry-picking and favorable interpretation, as well as ignoring all of the passages that are clearly and wholly unscientific (of which there are hundreds).
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
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The comments seem that way to you due to cherry-picking and favorable interpretation, as well as ignoring all of the passages that are clearly and wholly unscientific (of which there are hundreds).
Ok - that's fair.

If you want, you can show me some.

I am not closed to being wrong.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
It's not. Prophetic? Sure.

To understand it, you have to be able to look beyond the "I have to see it to believe it" attitude. If you can't/won't, it will NEVER make an ounce of sense to you.
I can't speak for Charles but I'm from Missouri; you do have to "Show Me"! Just kidding.

The Earth being round (or somewhat pear-shaped) isn't an idea that's unique to the Bible; the ancient Greeks had that idea as well. There may indeed be other ancient civilizations (Sumeria, etc.) whose scholars thought that the Earth was round. Who's to say?

I do think that the Bibles authors and ancient Christianity did play fast and loose with regards to the "borrowing" of concepts from other mythologies. That Jesus' "birth" coincided with and ultimately supplanted Saturnalia (the Roman festival celebrating Winter Solstice) even though scholars put his "birth date" in March because of star positions, etc.; the incorporation of elements of Celtic mythology into Christianity. To me these speak to a "takeover" of other belief systems or mythology by Christianity in order to be more acceptable to a just conquered populace. Even when Rome converted to Christianity; for a time the Roman gods and goddesses were substituted with Christian saints in the temples during the transition stage.

Christianity was the "winner" in the assimilation wars fought 2000 years ago; that doesn't necessarily make Bible true and factual.
 
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Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,064
868
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Carfax: Lack of understanding of a natural process is not evidence of a supernatural one. There was a time nobody understood things that today we take for granted.
What natural process? You first have to identify the natural process that you think is responsible for the things I listed..

But there is no natural process capable of such things, and for obvious reasons.

If you take some aluminum, steel, rubber, oil, glass etc and place them in a pile together and leave it for a 10 million years, will you get a car or an airplane?

Of course not, but thats essentially what you're saying in a way, except with living creatures it's far worse because they are a million times more complex than any machine humans have made..

That lifeless matter can spontaneously self organize into far more complex structures and become living creatures endowed with consciousness is even more absurd than the example I listed above with the pile of aluminum, steel, rubber etc turning into a car or an airplane after 10 million years..

It's also apparent that you have "faith" that Science will eventually find a natural process capable of creating such amazing and complex structures.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
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I can't speak for Charles but I'm from Missouri; you do have to "Show Me"! Just kidding.
:thumbsup:

The Earth being round (or somewhat pear-shaped) isn't an idea that's unique to the Bible; the ancient Greeks had that idea as well. There may indeed be other ancient civilizations (Sumeria, etc.) whose scholars thought that the Earth was round. Who's to say?
I hear that. But the Bible stated it as fact, though. It didn't say things like "maybe".. or "possibly" or "ideally". There was massive speculation that it was flat back then. But.. I hear what you mean, though.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
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:thumbsup:



I hear that. But the Bible stated it as fact, though. It didn't say things like "maybe".. or "possibly" or "ideally". There was massive speculation that it was flat back then. But.. I hear what you mean, though.
Well when you're trying to convince people or peoples that what you say is true you generally don't use words like "maybe", "probably", etc. Besides, they weren't trying to teach people Bible-based science, they were trying to transition them from a polytheistic belief system to a monotheistic system.

Did you read the rest of my post? I'm not pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
If you want, you can show me some.
Honestly, where to begin? I mean, even leaving aside the literally thousands of claims of miracles that violate the laws of physics, the bible is just chock full of unscientific references. From pi being equal to 3, to the earth "standing" on things, to implying that the sun goes around the earth.

What natural process? You first have to identify the natural process that you think is responsible for the things I listed..
Why do I have to identify it? It seems to me sufficient to say that we don't know right now.

A man who lived 500 years ago would have no idea how a spacecraft could take off, orbit the earth and communicate with people on the surface. But that doesn't mean that those things were not possible. Just that the understanding wasn't there yet.

But there is no natural process capable of such things, and for obvious reasons.
Sorry, but you really don't know that.

That lifeless matter can spontaneously self organize into far more complex structures and become living creatures endowed with consciousness is even more absurd than the example I listed above with the pile of aluminum, steel, rubber etc turning into a car or an airplane after 10 million years..
What I find fascinating is that you consider this beyond the realm of possibility, but you have no problem accepting an even more complex supernatural life form that came from... nowhere? Just magically popped into being?

It's also apparent that you have "faith" that Science will eventually find a natural process capable of creating such amazing and complex structures.
I never said they would. I said we don't currently know.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
What natural process? You first have to identify the natural process that you think is responsible for the things I listed..

But there is no natural process capable of such things, and for obvious reasons.

If you take some aluminum, steel, rubber, oil, glass etc and place them in a pile together and leave it for a 10 million years, will you get a car or an airplane?

Of course not, but thats essentially what you're saying in a way, except with living creatures it's far worse because they are a million times more complex than any machine humans have made..

That lifeless matter can spontaneously self organize into far more complex structures and become living creatures endowed with consciousness is even more absurd than the example I listed above with the pile of aluminum, steel, rubber etc turning into a car or an airplane after 10 million years..

It's also apparent that you have "faith" that Science will eventually find a natural process capable of creating such amazing and complex structures.
The Earth is a lot older than 10 million years.

Current thinking is that life in one form or another has existed on Earth for 3.7 billion years; that's a far cry from 10 million years.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
I can't speak for Charles but I'm from Missouri; you do have to "Show Me"! Just kidding.

The Earth being round (or somewhat pear-shaped) isn't an idea that's unique to the Bible; the ancient Greeks had that idea as well. There may indeed be other ancient civilizations (Sumeria, etc.) whose scholars thought that the Earth was round. Who's to say?

I do think that the Bibles authors and ancient Christianity did play fast and loose with regards to the "borrowing" of concepts from other mythologies. That Jesus' "birth" coincided with and ultimately supplanted Saturnalia (the Roman festival celebrating Winter Solstice) even though scholars put his "birth date" in March because of star positions, etc.; the incorporation of elements of Celtic mythology into Christianity. To me these speak to a "takeover" of other belief systems or mythology by Christianity in order to be more acceptable to a just conquered populace. Even when Rome converted to Christianity; for a time the Roman gods and goddesses were substituted with Christian saints in the temples during the transition stage.

Christianity was the "winner" in the assimilation wars fought 2000 years ago; that doesn't necessarily make Bible true and factual.
Jesus' birth almost certainly didn't coincide with Saturnalia or other midwinter festivals. Just as one of the Popes used his authority as G-d's vicar on Earth to transfer the holiness of the Sabbath to the first, early Christians co-opted many pagan holidays and festivals. If you want to get converts, it helps to be available when they aren't working. Plus, once they are nominally converts, you can keep an eye on what they are doing during those holidays.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Well when you're trying to convince people or peoples that what you say is true you generally don't use words like "maybe", "probably", etc. Besides, they weren't trying to teach people Bible-based science, they were trying to transition them from a polytheistic belief system to a monotheistic system.
They weren't trying to convince. I know it seems silly that they got their info from God, but seriously, they would not have made outstanding claims about the Earth's shape and position without knowing. Remember, they would not have ANY idea of knowing for sure.

Did you read the rest of my post? I'm not pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining.
I was getting some information together on Jesus' birthday. Sorry, I still am.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,947
8,642
146
1) Complex specific information encoded in DNA for which no natural process can account for.

2) Extreme fine tuning in the forces that govern and maintain the Universe and make Life possible.

3) The Universe has a cause in the event known as the Big Bang, for which Science has no explanation how and why it occurred.

4) The Existence of Consciousness which enables living creatures to perceive and experience reality.

5) The overwhelming complexity and order of living creatures, which contain nanotechnology which far surpass anything man can create by many orders of magnitude.

The example I gave before in this thread were ATP synthase, which are molecular (200,000 times smaller than a pin head) rotary machines capable of converting electrochemical energy into rotational energy, and finally into chemical energy. It can also do it in reverse.

There are an estimated 10 quadrillion of these nanomachines at work in the human body turning over your body weight (and much more depending on what you're doing) in ATP everyday until you die.

How is it that an unintelligent, random process can create such a marvel, when our most brilliant minds could not even dream of doing so?
I know I just looked at this thread but you've got a be trolling.

Actually if you really believe this.... ROLFLMAO!
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Honestly, where to begin? I mean, even leaving aside the literally thousands of claims of miracles that violate the laws of physics, the bible is just chock full of unscientific references. From pi being equal to 3, to the earth "standing" on things, to implying that the sun goes around the earth.
Still, those things are un-conceivable from a human standpoint. Humans are flawed and won't understand those things. That's a given.

...but, we have to look beyond what we can see/understand. If you don't believe in God, you wont get passed that. And if you examine the proof beyond flawed human and scientific reasoning, it becomes easier.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Jesus' birth almost certainly didn't coincide with Saturnalia or other midwinter festivals. Just as one of the Popes used his authority as G-d's vicar on Earth to transfer the holiness of the Sabbath to the first, early Christians co-opted many pagan holidays and festivals. If you want to get converts, it helps to be available when they aren't working. Plus, once they are nominally converts, you can keep an eye on what they are doing during those holidays.
Not to mention being able to pray to G-d whenever and wherever you wanted; as well as all the other benies. Truly a common mans' deity.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
...but, we have to look beyond what we can see/understand. If you don't believe in God, you wont get passed that. And if you examine the proof beyond flawed human and scientific reasoning, it becomes easier.
Sorry, really not following you here.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
Not to mention being able to pray to G-d whenever and wherever you wanted; as well as all the other benies. Truly a common mans' deity.
Just goes to show there is nothing so pure than man cannot fuck it up.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Sorry, really not following you here.
I am not good at explaining stuff, but I will try...

For instance, if you had a juicer and you were like "dang, how can it extract the juice and leave the rest of the fruit ready for disposal?" I recently brought one and am amazed by that.

Anyway, the first thing we normally think about is the person or people who designed/built the thing and give them credit for their ingenuity. We don't know how to make one of those, but we do give them credit.

Likewise, I am fascinated with outer-space, personally. And when I look deeply into it, I wonder who organized that stuff out there. I know we (humans) didn't, but I know someone did. I mean, it's just too organized (our solar system) for me to write it off as a result of nuclear chaos.

That's just how I come to conclusions...
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Likewise, I am fascinated with outer-space, personally. And when I look deeply into it, I wonder who organized that stuff out there. I know we (humans) didn't, but I know someone did. I mean, it's just too organized (our solar system) for me to write it off as a result of nuclear chaos.
I wonder about space all the time as well. But why does it have to have been "put there" by anyone?

You have complex systems all around you that developed over time and were not put into place as part of any grand design. So why find it so hard to accept?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,947
8,642
146
I am not good at explaining stuff, but I will try...

For instance, if you had a juicer and you were like "dang, how can it extract the juice and leave the rest of the fruit ready for disposal?" I recently brought one and am amazed by that.

Anyway, the first thing we normally think about is the person or people who designed/built the thing and give them credit for their ingenuity. We don't know how to make one of those, but we do give them credit.

Likewise, I am fascinated with outer-space, personally. And when I look deeply into it, I wonder who organized that stuff out there. I know we (humans) didn't, but I know someone did. I mean, it's just too organized (our solar system) for me to write it off as a result of nuclear chaos.

That's just how I come to conclusions...
Not to be offensive but this is an appeal to ignorance and lazy thinking. You may not understand it but others do.
 

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