Dad disowns his gay son in handwritten letter

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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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How do you figure? Codes tend to have specific information, that possess meaning or semantics....like a language. The information in the sequence of base pairs or codons, determines all the characteristics of a particular organism for instance, and how to built it from scratch..

I'd read up on this a bit more if I were you..
You seem to be mixing up lots of definitions there.

Are you saying that the information contained in DNA is evidence of god or that the existence of the mechanism is evidence of god?

The whole self replication thing is pretty awesome but just being awesome is no reason to throw god into the mix. Putting god into the explanation of the development of DNA just makes the whole thing more implausible from a scientific stand point. Unless you want to explain where god comes from and how his powers work in a scientific manner that is.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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You seem to be mixing up lots of definitions there.

Are you saying that the information contained in DNA is evidence of god or that the existence of the mechanism is evidence of god?

The whole self replication thing is pretty awesome but just being awesome is no reason to throw god into the mix. Putting god into the explanation of the development of DNA just makes the whole thing more implausible from a scientific stand point. Unless you want to explain where god comes from and how his powers work in a scientific manner that is.

Well god would actually make things much more plausible. Thats the point of belief. Taking something not understood, and simplifying it to understand why through the use of god whether true or not.

Plus, God would be beyond science, hence it is god. No way would you be able to prove or disprove it in a scientific manner.

Just remember. Things happen all around us that makes 0 sense unless we throw god/religion into the mix.

Example - 1yr old child falls out of an 8 story building. Survives with only a few bruises. Logic, science and gravity all dictates at the very best he should be at least badly broken because bones at that age are brittle. What was the X factor?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Well god would actually make things much more plausible...
Not really. Either you accept something without question, which you can do with or without god or you look for a plausible explanation which the idea of god is going to make very difficult.
 

JoeyP

Senior member
Aug 2, 2012
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Just because some things cannot be understood or explained, doe not make them wrong. I will always love my kids no matter what; understanding something they feel strongly about as being true will not get in the way of my love (and, hopefully, theirs).
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
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Just remember. Things happen all around us that makes 0 sense unless we throw god/religion into the mix.

Example - 1yr old child falls out of an 8 story building. Survives with only a few bruises. Logic, science and gravity all dictates at the very best he should be at least badly broken because bones at that age are brittle. What was the X factor?
Well if we're just going to explain everything that is hard to explain with God then let's go all the way.

Example - 25 year old, healthy male spontaneously has a heart attack and dies. Logic and medicine suggest someone this age, in very good health, should not have a heart attack. What was the X factor?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Just because some things cannot be understood or explained, doe not make them wrong...
I'm not saying it does. What I am saying is using the "because god" argument doesn't add to anything. If something is unexplained adding another unexplained thing to explain it is just a bit perverse really.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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The whole self replication thing is pretty awesome but just being awesome is no reason to throw god into the mix. Putting god into the explanation of the development of DNA just makes the whole thing more implausible from a scientific stand point.
I recall reading, just fyi, that researchers believe DNA (or the building block of it) may have been formed extraterrestrially in outer space.

It's not about throwing God into the mix to explain something seemingly "unexplainable"... however, it's all about trying to come to a reasonable conclusion. Humans are reasonable creatures.

Saying that there is "no chance" things were created is certainly and clearly unreasonable... especially seeing how we can create, organize, destroy etc. It's isn't beyond reason to believe that things could have been created. The things we encounter on a daily basis (even if we don't know who built/created it), we readily attribute to an intelligent designer without question.

It also can be unreasonable blaming everything on God, seeing how we make our own choice in life.. for those that have belief in a creator.

Some of you guys need to lower the hostility. Good grief.. all you are stating are opinions/beliefs, and some of you are acting like it's fact. Even scientific theory is based on what "should" happen, not undoubtedly on what "will" happen.

Kids can't control their emotions, last I checked, adults could....:rolleyes:
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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And they always say bullshit like "Something this complex must be created'
Really?

I am pretty sure that the computer you're typing on is pretty complex. But, there is not doubt in your mind it was thought about, designed, and implemented.

There is a basic truth that can't be denied..."where there is design, there is a designer"..

Or is that "bull***" to you too?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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... It's not about throwing God into the mix to explain something seemingly "unexplainable"... however, it's all about trying to come to a reasonable conclusion. Humans are reasonable creatures...
But god can never be part of a meaningful explanation as god is unexplainable. You just end up with the explanation "because god" which cuts off all further avenues.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Rest under God? No thanks. He can stay at a Red Roof Inn; it'll be kinda like going back to his birthplace. I share my bed only with my wife.
You are not the Earth.

So will Jesus return as the hippie-ish white dude with long hair that most European descendants have become accustomed to or as an dark-skinned, curly headed guy that was born in the Middle East? And will he be bringing his wife Mary Magdalene with him? And what about the twelve guys he used to hang out with an awful lot, at least more than any manly-man should or would; will they be back as well?
You pretend to not be a hater who wants rational conversations...but you are not. Exposing yourself for what you are seems to be impossible for you to avoid doing.

Sad, since I liked the guy you lied and claimed you were better than the real you.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
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Like I said, DNA is a code (specifically the sequence of base pairs) and it's both observable and quantifiable. It is singularly the greatest piece of evidence bar none in favor of a Creator.

Other evidences such as the fine tuning in the Universe don't have the same impact that DNA does, because as miraculous as they are, they cannot compare to the mind boggling complexity and specified order of a living creature...



Oh dude come on. Why is it that seemingly reasonable and intelligent people can become incredulous when faced with a fact that goes against their a priori philosophical beliefs?

Cerptin Taxt was the same way. I quoted dictionaries, encyclopedias, college text books, professors that specialize in information theory, and no matter what was said, Cerptin Taxt held to his own simple minded view of DNA....because he didn't want to believe.
If you choose to believe that DNA is evidence of a creator that's up to you. You seek to have order and explanation to life's uncertainties so you substitute belief to explain the chaos around you.

All I said was I have no opinion as to whether DNA is or isn't a code. Why does that bother you?

Cerpin Taxt prefers to use the scientific method to search for answers; that's far from simple minded. Someone who chooses not to use the scientific method and to instead ascribe a belief as explanation could be seen as having a simple minded view as well.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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As far as I know, the only Scientific attempt at explanation for the origin of Life was abiogenesis.....and that didn't turn out too well..
You are right wrt evolution - it starts with life already in existance. Nothing wrong with that, though, as all theories must start somewhere and evolution is the theory on how life changes, not starts.

However, abiogenesis has undergone a great amount of change in the last few years. One of the most exciting finds is how the even distribution of left and right handed proteins became shifted to being mostly left handed proteins.

Basically, for reasons I do not know, right handed proteins are more susceptable to destruction by solar radiation. This means that proteins found in asteroids are all left handed. A test was done and they found that if you introduce a small amount of extra proteins of a specific type into a 50-50 mix of left and right handed proteins, the entire mix rapidly shifts to that type. On Earth, several large asteroids hit which contained left handed proteins (since right handed ones were destroyed by the Sun). This caused the 50-50 mix to rapidly shift to being left handed.

That experiment alone caused the naturalistic creation of RNA to go from impossible to rather hard.

They also found a specific kind of clay which has the properties needed by RNA to reproduce itself. The problem we had was that RNA cannot reproduce with these chemicals, but currently these chemicals are created by the RNA itself. With the discovery of the clay, RNA can easily reproduce without them and then develop a way to create them by itself later when it was needed. Yes, this means life probably started in clay. Wonder if I can find any holy books which say this? :)

http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/articles/rna-origins-in-sheets-of-clay/
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
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You are not the Earth.



You pretend to not be a hater who wants rational conversations...but you are not. Exposing yourself for what you are seems to be impossible for you to avoid doing.

Sad, since I liked the guy you lied and claimed you were better than the real you.
Hey if you can quote your fantasies as to how old the world is I can ask my offbeat questions. I simply choose not to anthropomorphize the ideas and principles in the Bible. They're a good guide just as they are .

We'll try this one more time: The Bible is a collection of parables; it is not historical evidence nor is it a book of predictions. Some of it's parables are useful in guiding us through life's struggles.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
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I recall reading, just fyi, that researchers believe DNA (or the building block of it) may have been formed extraterrestrially in outer space.

It's not about throwing God into the mix to explain something seemingly "unexplainable"... however, it's all about trying to come to a reasonable conclusion. Humans are reasonable creatures.

Saying that there is "no chance" things were created is certainly and clearly unreasonable... especially seeing how we can create, organize, destroy etc. It's isn't beyond reason to believe that things could have been created. The things we encounter on a daily basis (even if we don't know who built/created it), we readily attribute to an intelligent designer without question.

It also can be unreasonable blaming everything on God, seeing how we make our own choice in life.. for those that have belief in a creator.

Some of you guys need to lower the hostility. Good grief.. all you are stating are opinions/beliefs, and some of you are acting like it's fact. Even scientific theory is based on what "should" happen, not undoubtedly on what "will" happen.

Kids can't control their emotions, last I checked, adults could....:rolleyes:
Maybe you attribute things you can't explain to an intelligent designer, other people do not.

Discussions of faith or belief can be some of the most acrimonious; I'm more surprised when the ones I'm viewing or involved in don't descend to "shouting matches". I sometimes say or type things that may seem "belittling" but they are more a reaction to outrageous or absurd statements, e.g. being told that "Jesus did not speak of breathing air. Using your logic, we could infer that breaking was of little or no import to Jesus."

Somewhat immature of me to react in the way I do but hey, I'm a work in progress. The only person I have to be better than is the person I was five minutes ago.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Maybe you attribute things you can't explain to an intelligent designer, other people do not.

It's not about the unexplainable... it's about the order.

Like science, as far as I have read so I could be wrong, can't explain how DNA got here... but they see the order in humans and animals and how it develops living things and assign characteristics, etc.

They can "see" design and order without a doubt, though they may not attribute it to a designer.

That's what I mean. I don't know who built the lamp I use, or the steering wheel in my car. But the way it's designed shows that it's designer has intelligence.

Intelligence is manifested in the order.
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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We'll try this one more time: The Bible is a collection of parables; it is not historical evidence nor is it a book of predictions. Some of it's parables are useful in guiding us through life's struggles.
Your faith based belief is odd, even if I consider it to be wrong. You are welcome to hold an odd faith based belief, though it is good you stopped lying about yourself.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Your faith based belief is odd, evern if I consider it to be wrong. You are welcome to hold an odd faith based belief, though it is good you stopped lying about yourself.
I like Alzan, but it seems he built and defeated his own strawman...
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
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Your faith based belief is odd, evern if I consider it to be wrong. You are welcome to hold an odd faith based belief, though it is good you stopped lying about yourself.
As I consider yours odd.

I like Alzan, but it seems he built and defeated his own strawman...
Say the two who believe in a book because the book tells them to believe in it.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Say the two who believe in a book because the book tells them to believe in it.

So, you don't read books? You've never read a book and believed its contents?

Funny how you want to call out religious folks who read and believe in a book, when you do the same thing... written and published by a man or men/women for people.

And too, don't count all the mistakes and corrections in "research" that many have confessed to and you still take it as fact.

You're no different than religious Bible readers... :rolleyes:
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Your faith based belief is odd, evern if I consider it to be wrong. You are welcome to hold an odd faith based belief, though it is good you stopped lying about yourself.
I suspect you'd find fewer Christians today who believe the Bible is the literal truth dictated straight from G-d's mouth than you'd find Christians who believe as he does. Whether that is a failing of faith is something none of us will know until Judgment. Personally I'm rather agnostic about the Bible as literal truth; certainly a being powerful enough to create our universe could have done anything in the Bible, but as many of the things are contradicted by known science, I don't think believing the Bible is a collection of parables is entirely unreasonable, whether you believe those parables came from G-d or simply from people recognized for wisdom. I'd also point out that there is nothing mankind can't fuck up, so believing that the Bible is the literal word of G-d is also believing that over thousands of years G-d made sure no one was allowed to change His word in the slightest, whether intentionally or accidentally. For instance, Catholics and Protestants and Mormons all have different Bibles, and for the first two there are numerous translations which are not always in agreement. And some other books were considered for inclusion and rejected in the face of opposition. I have no problem believing that those early Christians were solemn, honest men with the best of intentions, or that they were divinely inspired. I have a bit more problem believing that those early Christians were infallible and that their own preferences and cultural mores never crept in.

Honor the man who seeks to know G-d's will; fear the man who says he knows it. The Bible is G-d's lesson collection for us; understanding that does not require belief in its literal truth. And even the deepest faith in the Bible as literal truth does not tell you which parts should take precedence, or how much to weight each requirement, or what to do in every situation. Which is as it should be - what use is a G-d who allows no personal decisions?
 

RocksteadyDotNet

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2008
3,152
1
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Really?

I am pretty sure that the computer you're typing on is pretty complex. But, there is not doubt in your mind it was thought about, designed, and implemented.

There is a basic truth that can't be denied..."where there is design, there is a designer"..

Or is that "bull***" to you too?
Facepalm.

Err, computers can't self replicate. They didn't evolve on their own.

I can actually talk to the guys that designed the parts inside the computer. I can go to the factor and watch people assemling computers.

Get god on the phone and let him tell me how he created man.

Even if we hadn't built computers, and one fell from the sky, if we pulled it apart and studied it, everything about would point to the fact that it was created by a higher life.

Everything about the human body indicates that we evolved over time.
 

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