Current illegal immigrant inflow - good or bad?

[RandomWords]

Here is the condition from what first hand knowledge I have from people who actually work the border:

A.) there is so many that the facilities can't handle the inflow
B.) Family units are surrendering in mass amounts - they have an order to appear in 3 years but until then are given a free bus or plane ticket to anywhere in the U.S. they want to go.
C.) The children are not starving - they are being fed but many (like children do) are refusing to eat because they "don't like" the food they are given... that sounds like they aren't hungry enough to me.
D.) There is no stopping the inflow and no effort to do so because it is just too vast - the majority of people working the border are there to take the people to be processed and get their bus/plane ticket.


There are many views out there including the following:
A.) These poor people are being mistreated
B.) Many are clueless about the actual process going on
C.) Some think it is a good thing; let them stay - we can't send them back from where they came from; it is saving lives; America was built on immigration; they have every right to be here; etc.
D.) Some think it is a bad thing - ie: our economy can't handle the citizens we have; the extra abuse on the welfare / other system it will create; that they have no respect for American values and have no loyalty, pride, or honor; they expect America to change to accommodate them; they do not pay their share of taxes - etc.
E.) Some are conspiracy theory believers that think they are coming to silently take us over.

I'm curious... What are YOUR views and what have YOU heard about the immigration issue?

Keep in mind that what I posted above about the condition is directly from the source and not some biased news report that is fed to the public.

 

[Caravaggio]

I'm curious... What are YOUR views and what have YOU heard about the immigration issue.

You say you are close to those who know about this issue 'first hand', so there is a good chance that you are better-informed than me about the specific issue of illegal immigration into the southern US.

So I will take the broader view, if I may.
Immigration happens when poor people having a bad time wish to go to join rich people having a good time.
Sometimes this suits the rich people really well. It supplies cheap labour, suppresses the wage demands of those already in the 'rich land' and secures bigger profits for the share holders of global businesses. In extreme cases it can reduce manufacturing cots so rapidly that some enterprises repatriate jobs once sent to China, Vietnam and the Philippines.

There is an inevitable difficulty in the process if it happens rapidly. The previous 'settled population', the locals, feel challenged and fearful for their futures. This can be exacerbated by racism but can be independent of that.

The USA acts as an immigrant magnet for people from unstable states to the south, while Western Europe acts in the same way for Africans and those fleeing violence in the Middle East and Asia.

What can be done?

The state of first destination can attempt to send the immigrants back or put them in holding camps. Australia has tried this but has been widely criticised.

The state of first destination can accept the immigrants and send them to other countries, as Italy sends Somali and Ethiopian arrivals 'up the chain' to England and Germany. This is having a radical effect on UK attitudes, where the anti-immigrant party is now a serious contender in politics. But that party can never win an outright majority because it is a 'single-issue' one trick pony.

Ultimately the immigrants will get through, either by repeated attempts or because human rights legislation prevents removal before the immigrant settles and produces offspring in the 'new land'. After that, removal seems draconian.

In terms of the yet wider picture of 'evolutionary biology', the long-term winner will be the group which produces the most viable offspring reaching breeding age. That phase might be very many years away. But inter-breeding will, by then, make immigrant groups less distinctive.

The danger is that these trends might eventually destroy all welfare societies as welfare provision is obviously too easy to exploit, if we consider long 'evolutionary' time scales.

But by then, there will be a clamour to employ eugenic practices to stop the world from being over-run by humans fighting for dwindling resources.

Celebrate the fact that you lived in the 'easy-times'. And give thanks that you were not on the MS St. Louis, which was turned back to Germany from the US in 1939.

 

[C1]

Havent you heard? There is no water now here in California to take on anymore people.

Typical: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...-thirsty-as-drought-burns-5-billion-hole.html

 

[RandomWords]

So I will take the broader view, if I may.

You have a very good view on immigration as a whole - in the end there isn't much people can do - it is something that happens. What can and should be done though, is an overhaul of welfare so we don't end up supporting all the new immigrants as well as the current welfare people. The working class can't support that many people.

The main issues I run across with the non-acceptance of immigrants are A.) the welfare issue; and B.) that they refuse to learn to speak English and expect someone in whatever business to speak their language. C.) A LOT of immigrants (from Mexico especially) are racist against whites- and especially blacks - better to be white. D.) They usually come with the same mentality that made their place horrible in the first place.

A. - of course I already covered
Granted - B. isn't a bad thing... but I think it is more of a respect issue on their part. Most fail to even try to learn.
C. and D. you can see if you go to any border towns in the south. You have a culture that is rising up that is just like Mexico - the cities aren't very well upkept, the main language is Spanish, if you are another race against a mexican - etc - going up for a job - the mexican will get chosen - even if they come in after you for the job and are less qualified, you have courts that will deem a wreck your fault if you are also another race even if it wasn't because they are also taken over; and you have more gang activity.

They were not raised in our world and thus do not follow the same rules or even know our laws - which is a major issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[RandomWords]

Havent you heard? There is no water now here in California to take on anymore people.

Californians are like immigrants here too - and considered as such elsewhere I know about as well - you leave Cali and then come to a new state and want to enact laws and programs Cali had that, in our opinion, made your state in the condition it is in... of course these people eventually will get their way because they will find their way into our positions of authority.

Which brings up another issue of immigrants today (from mexico or elsewhere) - they want to change the place they go to be like they want instead of assimilating.

 

[Caravaggio]

You have a very good view on immigration as a whole - in the end there isn't much people can do - it is something that happens.

Thanks for those positive words. Yes, I see it as virtually inevitable but states have a duty to form a policy on the immigration rate which is tolerable for national identity, IMHO.

What can and should be done though, is an overhaul of welfare so we don't end up supporting all the new immigrants as well as the current welfare people. The working class can't support that many people.

That is a good point but it comes with huge political ramifications for the demography of politics. For example, if party D needs Hispanic votes to win an election it will probably tread lightly on immigration controls aimed at those groups who most concern you?
Party R, by contrast, might have solid support among the over 50's but has to walk a tightrope between seeming generally conservative and anti-immigrant and boxing itself into support from a loyal but shrinking demographic.

These designations are hypothetical, of course, but the model helps to explain why loyal voters feel they have stayed the same while their favoured parties keep changing.

The main issues I run across with the non-acceptance of immigrants are A.) the welfare issue; and B.) that they refuse to learn to speak English and expect someone in whatever business to speak their language. C.) A LOT of immigrants (from Mexico especially) are racist against whites- and especially blacks - better to be white. D.) They usually come with the same mentality that made their place horrible in the first place.

You are now into an area my knowledge of which is extremely limited, so pardon the simplicity of my responses to those comments.

Firstly I agree that welfare is a central issue. Those who have funded a system through state taxation, will inevitably feel betrayed if new immigrants, especially new immigrants entering illegally, are seen to be the first tier beneficiaries of a system they have not helped to fund.
Welfare tourism undoubtedly exists. I feel that most of us would like to offer some help in the extreme cases.
A war widow from the Central African Republic, frequently subjected to sexual violence, would be welcomed and accepted without too much form-filling in many countries. The US has a very good record in cases such as these. Even if the immigrant in question is likely to remain economically 'inactive'. But none of us want to seem patsies, I agree.
It is always a question of balance. I sense that you feel your system is gravely out of balance?

I have no experience of Mexican racism but I have travelled a little along the border as a tourist and note that many of the place names on the US side have Spanish names. Before that part of the US was America, it was probably Mexican? Before the Spanish arrived the names would have been entirely different, I imagine. The original inhabitants hardly exist as a culture any more.
The battle of the Alamo was fought, inter alia, by many Scots and Irish immigrants, I have been told.
This immigration thing is highly complex, we need always to factor-in history, in all it's confusing and contradictory detail.

I agree with you that a serious immigrant of good intent should be willing to learn the native language.

 

[RandomWords]

The battle of the Alamo was fought, inter alia, by many Scots and Irish immigrants, I have been told. This immigration thing is highly complex, we need always to factor-in history, in all it's confusing and contradictory detail.

Good point - the land will always go to the victors - and I suppose whatever Mexican general it was did say they would take their land back without firing a single shot. Kudos to them; they are succeeding.

 

[Caravaggio]

True.
And the victor always gets to write the most popular history.
The measure of a good historian is a writer who can find valour in his enemy's troops. Thucydides meets that criterion. There have been very few since.

Current events in Gaza and Eastern Ukraine will be debated by professional historians for a hundred years, but there is only one 'truth' and it will be achieved slowly, and by attention to all the sources.

We are still stumbling towards a vague understanding of WW1.

 

[boomerang]

It's not just bad, it's very bad. To add to the points the linked article below makes, this influx further boosts the illegal activities of our own government. I have pointed out several times here that this was orchestrated by our own government. They were soliciting for bids for the care and movement of these illegals back in January of this year. They knew they were coming. Think about that. Further, they are moving them now across the nation to various locations without first notifying the Governor's of the respective states. Additionally, it appears at this point that there is a conscious decision being made to not move these people to states where Democrat's are in tight races. That remains to be proved out.

Lets begin with a few facts:
1) 92,000,000 Americans are out of the workforce.
2) 50,000,000 American are on welfare.
3) The cost of illegal immigration is well over 100,000,000,000.00 per year (and that’s 2010 estimates).
4) Of the nearly 500,000 illegal aliens who have been apprehended at the border in fiscal year 2014, a mere 15% have been unaccompanied children. The rest have been families units (minimum of one adult and one child).
5) Most family units have been released into the general public with no health screening.
6) Most illegal aliens who are apprehended make the same claim, “I flee from my country because I fear for my life.” Border agents tell me once the investigation goes a bit longer, the truth is revealed: The illegal aliens come here because they WERE TOLD America is offering amnesty.
7) Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) data show that 65 percent of unaccompanied alien minors’ asylum applications were immediately approved by asylum officers in Fiscal Year 2014, according to a press release from the House Judiciary Committee. And most unapproved cases are later approved by an immigration judge. This means that the vast majority of aliens who seek asylum are now successful in their claims despite the fact that an internal Department of Homeland Security report says that 70 percent of asylum cases contain proven or possible fraud.
8) American children represent a disproportionate share of the poor in the United States; they are 24 percent of the total population, but 36 percent of the poor population. In 2010, 16.4 million children, or 22.0 percent, were poor.

Read more at http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=244211#cIF2YG7DxJG6uTxS.99

 

[RandomWords]

To add to the points the linked article below makes, this influx further boosts the illegal activities of our own government.

I'll agree with that. I know my state doesn't want them - but they still have to go by federal government policies and I don't see them sending any federal help to the border - they never have - and instead make laws that tie State hands - which is why Arizona took matters into their own hands in some way; they do help out the government regardless of what side they are on; I'm sure republicans benefit in some way just like democrats or they wouldn't be so laid back about it. Either way - they will affect voting - and if you don't think they can vote - well - neither can the dead but they still do.

 

[Craig234]

I'll agree with that. I know my state doesn't want them - but they still have to go by federal government policies and I don't see them sending any federal help to the border - they never have - and instead make laws that tie State hands - which is why Arizona took matters into their own hands in some way; they do help out the government regardless of what side they are on; I'm sure republicans benefit in some way just like democrats or they wouldn't be so laid back about it. Either way - they will affect voting - and if you don't think they can vote - well - neither can the dead but they still do.

How about you show some evidence to back up your claim that any significant number of undocumented immigrants vote?

You know what does affect voting? The voter suppression measures in Republican states to prevent Democratic voters from voting.

So less made up falsehoods about Hispanic voting, and stop blocking valid voters.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Either way - they will affect voting - and if you don't think they can vote - well - neither can the dead but they still do.

That's total rightwing garbage......you have no facts or links to back up your diatribe...

My apologies to Craig...in my rush to post I messed up...

 

[Fern]

That's total rightwing garbage......you have no facts or links to back up your diatribe...

Man, you totally messed up that quote job.

Craig234 didn't post those remarks.

Fern

 

[RandomWords]

How about you show some evidence to back up your claim that any significant number of undocumented immigrants vote? You know what does affect voting? The voter suppression measures in Republican states to prevent Democratic voters from voting. So less made up falsehoods about Hispanic voting, and stop blocking valid voters.

Lol... well... since you seem to assume I'm a republican, how about I assume you're a democrat and how about you take your democratic self and move down to near the border and live there for three or four years and you tell me what is what and look for the proof yourself - for it is there. As for proof - I never thought to get any - why bother - who would I bring it to - the corrupt officials... I just am glad I no longer live there nor will I return to get you your so beloved proof... but you are more than welcome to do the leg work.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lol... well... since you seem to assume I'm a republican, how about I assume you're a democrat and how about you take your democratic self and move down to near the border and live there for three or four years and you tell me what is what and look for the proof yourself - for it is there. As for proof - I never thought to get any - why bother - who would I bring it to - the corrupt officials... I just am glad I no longer live there nor will I return to get you your so beloved proof... but you are more than welcome to do the leg work.

hahaha nice deflection!! We know you have no proof so move on little boy.....

 

[JEDIYoda]

Man, you totally messed up that quote job.

Craig234 didn't post those remarks.

Fern

YES...my bad...that should have been attributed to our paid Police shill.....Randomwoods!!

 

[RandomWords]

hahaha nice deflection!! We know you have no proof so move on little boy.....

Or maybe I'm tired of hunting down all the proof for you like I have had to do on each thread you want to call me out on something because you are too lazy to actually research the opposing argument and only look for/accept/recognize information that supports yours. It seems like every time I turn around you are asking me to go give you proof of something - do better research. Nor is this thread anything about democrats or republicans or voting... if you want proof on an outside topic of the discussion - I will state again - go find it yourselves. This thread is about people's PERSONAL OPINION ON THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE CURRENTLY COMING OVER THE BORDER! if you didn't catch that the first time.

 

[RandomWords]

YES...my bad...that should have been attributed to our paid Police shill.....Randomwoods!!

and you resort to calling me things in which I am not - as seen on many of these posts - and totally overlook information to go off on some little point to TRY and prove me wrong on a technicality or pick at something that isn't even relevant to the discussion... without really ever adding anything to the discussion, so... forgive me if I don't feel inclined to indulge your little whims.

 

[RandomWords]

Besides - any kids born here are US citizens and they can affect the vote - so yes - allowing all these illegal immigrants in here - does affect voting as well as welfare and many other aspects of our culture.

Here's a quote I particularly like from another thread that somewhat deals with this one:

he wont answer. he just build strawmen. but the left around here and in this country is all for open borders to let in millions of slave wage labors, and voters. I mean you have libertards in congress that seem to be working more for illegals then for the citizens of this country http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...al-108473.html he calls these illegal law breakers 'our people' http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...al-Immigration no they are Mexicans, Guatemalans, or Honduran. send them back.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Besides - any kids born here are US citizens and they can affect the vote - so yes - allowing all these illegal immigrants in here - does affect voting as well as welfare and many other aspects of our culture.

Here's a quote I particularly like from another thread that somewhat deals with this one:

The problem is our entire nation is made up of immigrants. Yes, their children will have a vote, just as you have a vote because your parents (or grand parents, or ect.) came here.
Does it affect welfare? Of course, because we intentionally make it hard for them to get jobs, but then allow them to get welfare. What do we expect is going to happen?

The solution is to make it easier to get jobs. They came here looking for a better life. They are used to hard work, and believe in the American Dream that if you work hard you can improve your lot. For them that is very much true. So, let them do the work and they will improve their lot and add to our society instead of detract from it.

 

[RandomWords]

Does it affect welfare? Of course, because we intentionally make it hard for them to get jobs, but then allow them to get welfare. What do we expect is going to happen? The solution is to make it easier to get jobs. They came here looking for a better life. They are used to hard work, and believe in the American Dream that if you work hard you can improve your lot. For them that is very much true. So, let them do the work and they will improve their lot and add to our society instead of detract from it.

You make it sound like they all want to work hard - which is not the case. Sure, some of them do - but just as many are lazy and want it easy and want life handed to them - and many are into drugs and gangs and establish those. Just like many of the people here who are not illegal immigrants - people are people. I feel like you are idealizing the situation by saying they all want to work hard to improve their lives if we just give them the chance. Anything they add or detract will balance itself out I think - but they will do both - make no mistake; and we will have to adapt.

Plus, one problem with letting them in at the current time is our economy really isn't that strong to handle that kind of inflow. We are still trying to get to where we have enough jobs for the people who just lost their jobs - which yes, some states are doing well - but I worry this influx of people will not help the situation. Another problem with letting them work is most of them don't pay taxes or have to because they are illegal immigrants - nor if they became legal would they probably file because I'm not sure most of them even know they have to file taxes. They don't pay into the system - but they use the things taxes pay for - also a problem we have with some of our current legal residents

... which that problem could be solved easily if they did away with income tax and established a flat sales tax with the exclusion of taxing food - the fairest tax there is. I'm sad that the guy who presented it didn't make it all the way to the presidency. Then that welfare case that has the Smart Phone (way before I did btw) and is always having parties and buying alcohol would actually be giving some of the money back that they spent on it and other items those of us who can't get welfare can't even afford... the nation would bring in way more than they would on income tax. Or if they really wanted they could keep the income tax (though lower than now) for people who make over two million or so dollars per year. Win win.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I feel like you are idealizing the situation by saying they all want to work hard to improve their lives if we just give them the chance. Anything they add or detract will balance itself out I think - but they will do both - make no mistake; and we will have to adapt.

Just like here, more will want to work then not. Probably more of them then natural citizens already here, because getting here was hard work to begin with, and required a certain mind set to want to improve. At least to some extent just getting here probably creates a filter for just the people we want here.

Plus, a problem with letting them work is most of them don't pay taxes or have to because they are illegal immigrants - nor if they became legal would they probably file because I'm not sure most of them even know they have to file taxes. They don't pay into the system - which that problem could be solved easily if they did away with income tax and established a flat sales tax with the exclusion of taxing food - the fairest tax there is. I'm sad that the guy who presented it didn't make it all the way to the presidency.

I'm glad you found your own solution. And I agree that would work. But even if we didn't go that far, it would not be hard to bring them into the tax fold. Since most of these people would be taking low paying jobs, and most taxes are withheld from a W4, not filing taxes means they pay too much in taxes because they will not get a return back.

 

[RandomWords]

Since most of these people would be taking low paying jobs, and most taxes are withheld from a W4, not filing taxes means they pay too much in taxes because they will not get a return back.

yes, that would help bring some of them in. but a lot of low income jobs are paid under the table or as contract labor. It keeps the cost low for the company as well since they don't have to pay their half of the taxes for that person. Our system is greatly lacking in how it handles things... but then - this doesn't surprise me... sometimes it's like they try and pick the worst possible choice as the course they take.

Just like here, more will want to work then not. Probably more of them then natural citizens already here, because getting here was hard work to begin with, and required a certain mind set to want to improve. At least to some extent just getting here probably creates a filter for just the people we want here.

I can see where you get this... but just because they had enough gumption to get here; doesn't mean that once they are here they will be willing to work hard to better their lives - their lives are already better - some have no desire to further this. I'm of course singling out Mexicans with this phrase - it seems like those from other places actually do contribute to our country IMO... but then - I have never lived in a city ran by them...

 

[smackababy]

My big issue with immigration is unskilled labor becoming eventually over-saturated. I will agree that our legal immigration process is broken and designed to keep people out. I don't think we should just allow every nations poor and unfortunate into this country though. With the advance of technology, more unskilled (and skilled in some places) labor is being eliminated faster than new jobs for those workers can be created. I have no problem with skilled workers (degree holders, trade workers, etc) being allowed in.

I get why they want into America; a lot of countries out there are awful and having no real skills except work ethic in the 3rd world is a lot worse off than the same in the US, but we can't sustain that type of model.

I am a firm believer the fall of society will happen due to technology advancing beyond what we can actually sustain.

 

[SandEagle]

didn't Bush promise to give instant citizenship to illegals if they joined our military? its a good way to have the mexicans kill the arabs for us! and when they come to proclaim citizenship, we can detain them and ship them back home. win-win-win

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/05/the-enlist-act-a-back-door-to-instant-citizenship