Current AGP vid cards...

[KieranCoghlan]

So, another upgrade question...

I've got a PNY-brand GeForce4 4200Ti, with 128MB of video RAM. I'm sorta-kina thinking of upgrading, but can't really afford much. I've been totally out of the loop since I bought this card, so I am wondering... of the current AGP cards out there, at what point will I start to see significant gains in performance? In other words, where does my current card rank with the current new range of choices?

I've searched several reviews, but it's hard to figure out where my card ranks with all the new models. I doubt it's totally at the bottom, although suspect it's close.

FYI, the rest of my system is: Athlon XP 3200+, 512MB ram, Gigabyte GA-7N400 Pro mobo (nForce2 chipset).

I guess it's the new demo of Splinter Cell3 that has me thinking of upgrading the video... It is *just* playable at 600x800 with minimal other settings. I suspect that as the game progresses and I try online play with it, I may have to drop that to 640x480. Would like to be able to run it at 1024x768 or more.

Thanks for any info/tips/advice!

 

[Ike0069]

A 6600Gt would be a huge step up for you and you would not be CPU limited.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

The GT is a little pricey for me. I should have stated this in my first post, but was hoping to find something between $100~$140 that would offer a worthwhile improvement over my current card.

What about the standard (non-GT) 6600?
It can be had for around $135-ish. Would it be a worthwhile upgrade, or not really?

BTW, I'm not married to the idea of Nvidia only... but am clueless about all things ATI.
Thanks...

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Would you consider going used?

You could pick up a used 9700pro for around $125 on FS/FT forums or ebay.

If you have a 4200 already, it would probably be a good idea to save up more and get a 6600gt at least.

 

[AristoV300]

I would say then go with the 9800 series. They should be cheap by now since they are last generation. Should perform better then a 6600 vanilla.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Thanks for the info. I guess I'll wait a while. I might think about buying used, though. What FS/FT forums do you recommend?

It's frustrating that video cards are one of the few technology areas where prices go UP as time and technology move forward.

Most things get cheaper or stay the same, while quality/technology improve.

 

[fireontheway]

Wait a while like you said and save up for a PCI-E card and PCI-E mobo.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: KieranCoghlan
It's frustrating that video cards are one of the few technology areas where prices go UP as time and technology move forward.

Actually, "midrange" cards have been $200-250 for ages, and like most PC parts speed has been doubling at least every 18 months.

If you bought a geforce 3 in 2001 it cost about $250, geforce 4 ti4200 in 2002, geforce 5900 in late 2003, or now a 6600gt in early 2005.

If you can wait a year, a 6600gt (or 7xxx at that speed) will be $125.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Actually, I just looked at my invoice online at newegg.com, from October 23, 2002. My GeForce4 Ti4200 cost $138.00 at that time, and it was then considered one of the better "midrange" cards. Most of the articles in magazines and websites (including Anandtech) state that video card prices have been gradually increasing over the years. Sure a given card will drop in price, but what is considered "high-end" has been going up, along with the midrange, too. There was a time when $250 for a video card was the high end... now it's a "good" midrange.

And Moore's "law" (the so-called doubling of speed every 18-months) is not a law, in fact it's been highly distorted since Moore stated it. Besides, video cards have not been doubling in speed every 18 months. The fastest geforce right now is the 6800UE, which has a core speed of 450MHz. The GF4 ti4800 came out over 2 years prior to it, and had a core speed of 300MHz.

 

[ribbon13]

Moore's theorem is the integrated circuits complexity doubled every 18 months.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Originally posted by: fireontheway
Wait a while like you said and save up for a PCI-E card and PCI-E mobo.

Hmmm... I would, but I *really* like my current mobo. It has the integrated Dolby Digital real-time encoder (Soundstorm) which I have piped via optical digital cable into my HT, and I love the sound of it. To replace the mobo, cpu, video card, AND get an audio solution that would live up to my current audio, would cost WAY too much for me... I'd be able to afford a nice AGP card before I could afford all that.

Nah, I figure I've still got a lot of life left out of this mobo and cpu... especially if I can save up for a nice video card.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
Moore's theorem is the integrated circuits complexity doubled every 18 months.

I know, but didn't want to go into the details. But thanks. There's a good side-bar article on it in this month's Maximum PC mag...

Moore observed that component integration (on economical IC's) doubled approximately every 12 months. In 1975, he lengthened the period to 24 months. Since then, other people -- not Moore -- have split the difference to 18 months

 

[SlitheryDee]

I just upgraded from a ATI 9600 AGP to a 6600GT. I have an Atlon XP 3000+ @ 2330 mhz with an Abit NF7-S2 mb (nforce 2) . The difference is nothing short of amazing. However, I'm now severely CPU limited and it shows big time on current games. Since our situations are similar I'd recommend going ahead and getting that 6600GT and then saving up to jump on the A64 bandwagon for a really nice CPU/GPU match. Otherwise when you finally do upgrade your processor you'll be cursing that lower end card.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

What are the symptoms of being "cpu limited" that shows up on current games?

 

[bob4432]

i went from a ti4200 64MB card to a 9800pro and had a significant increase, just amazing. the 6600gt, if you can afford it would be the route i would take today though as i paid $200 for my 9800pro and now that is about where the 6600gt agps currently are. you also might want to get another 512MB of ram as todays games use quite a bit of it.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Edited... See below

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: KieranCoghlan
What are the symptoms of being "cpu limited" that shows up on current games?

Lord of the Rings TBFME - extreme slowdown when there are many characters on screen, not affected by changing display settings.

Chronicles of Riddick - Plays pretty well at parts but slows down in action scenes, once again not affected by changing resolution or detail settings.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - Extreme slowdown in outdoor areas, not affected by changing resolution or detail settings. (admittedly this one's got a reputation for slow performance)

I hope I'm correct in assuming that bad performance which is not alleviated by reducing resolution or detail settings ic CPU related. I mean, I suppose there could be many causes, but I think that my computer is properly configured and there are no other bottlenecks.







-------------------------
He came from the sea...

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Yeah, looks like the 6600gt is the way to go... we'll see if the prices drop at all in the next 3 months or so. Currently the low price seems to be around $185 for the eVGA GeForce 6600GT 128MB at zipzoomfly . If it drops to under $150 I may bite.

I'll consider the RAM upgrade too... again, not much money to spend on this stuff these days though... (I went back to school last spring.)

 

[apoppin]

With your current card - your are limited to DX8.1 . . . . the 9800p will be significantly faster than your card PLUS display all the DX9 "eyecandy" - i.e. complex shadows and lighting and the beautiful water textures and reflections that your card so sorely lacks.

Why not sell your card? . . . i guess you could get $40-$50 for it . . . . a 6600GT woould be a very nice upgrade and even faster then the 9800p (plus you get SM 3.0).

edit:

Originally posted by: KieranCoghlan
What are the symptoms of being "cpu limited" that shows up on current games?

'CPU limited' (basically) means that your CPU is too slow for your chosen video card. In other words, b]pair an XP1600+ with a GeForce 6800Ultra O/C. . . . a terrible mismatch[/b] (except at the ultra high resolutions with maximum AA/AF where the videocard does most of the work) and your ultimate FPS will be limited by your (slow) CPU's ability to process quickly enough.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Oh and I forgot Half life 2, the big action scene with the striders gets a bit hitchy when there's a lot going on, but that could be tru for more powerful systems as well.

 

[KieranCoghlan]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Why not sell your card? . . . i guess you could get $40-$50 for it . . . . a 6600GT woould be a very nice upgrade and even faster then the 9800p (plus you get SM 3.0).

Good idea. I might consider that! Thanks... where's the best place to sell things like video cards online?

Originally posted by: apoppin
CPU limited (basically) means that your CPU is too slow for your chosen videocard. In other words, pair an XP1600+ with a GeForce Ultra . . . . a terrible mismatch (except at the ultra high resolutions with maximum AA/AF where the videocard does most of the work) and your ultimate FPS will be limited by your (slow) CPU's ability to process quickly enough.

Yeah, I figured that much... wondering what the symptoms are, that you actually *see* during a game. SlitheryDee's description seemed to make sense... you agree?

 

[apoppin]

You don't "see" anything. . . . your FPS is slowed to match your CPU's speed . . . the cure (besides a CPU upgrade is to max out the settings includings AA/AF and resolution till the game slows) . . . .
. . . i think a XP1600+ and a 6800ulltra O/C would have no problem with today's games to notice stuttering or slowdowns at normal settings, but it'd be an awful mismatch hiding the 6800's potential

Your 3200+ and a 6600Gt would be a VERY nice pair up . . . especially if you plan to play at 10x7 resolutions.

EDIT: and look in OUR (AT) FS/T forums!
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

2nd Edit: Yes, 512MB>1GB of RAM offers noticeable improvement especially in level load times (and RE load!!) :thumbsup:

 

[SlitheryDee]

ditto on the RAM upgrade

 

[gwag]

http://www.woot.com/ 5900XT for $125 maybe do a little research a 6200 can be had for $100(around) and be modded to as faster or faster than 6600's sometimes just shy of 6600G speeds.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

A radeon 9800pro for $158 wouldn't be a bad option either.