Current 120Hz monitors are 'locked out' from doing 3D on ATI hardware

[HurleyBird]

http://www.digitalversus.com/3d-fil...s-from-ati-before-christmas-article-1086.html

I really like the idea of working on an open technology. That said, sidelining current owners of 120 Hz products by concentrating support on HDMI 1.4a and DisplayPort 1.2 is problematic.

SP: You know, with the 3D Vision programme, those monitors are locked out of working with ATI graphics cards. Nvidia locks out any cards other than theirs.

TM: There's a pin on the DVI connector which sends the signal to check the presence of an Nvidia graphics card. This is why those monitors won't work with us.

 

[Ben90]

Well considering the type of 3d you are talking about requires Nvidia drivers, Id say either program your own 3d driver or don't worry about it.

That's not to say I'm blindly supporting Nvidia's move on this. Nvidia thinks this is a wise business decision, and while it may hurt consumers and the 3d market, they can basically do whatever the hell they want with their drivers as long as its not malware.

Instead of calling Nvidia the bad guy, why don't you go complain to ATi to get their own 3d shutter method going. Its the exact same thing as the batman fiasco. Edios didn't know/feel like doing the work so they asked the hardware manufactures. Nvidia gave Edios code at the price of only working with Nvidia hardware. ATi didn't do anything. Somehow Nvidia got turned into the bad guy.

Now for disabling Physx when an ATi card is detected, that's pretty Bull-S###, but currently legal. I really hate that they do that, considering their market for Tesla, but they think its a wise decision. Maybe we can get a class action lawsuit out of that.

 

[ViRGE]

Something doesn't compute here. 120Hz monitors work with AMD cards...

 

[golem]

I don't get it. It won't work on Nvidia cards but it's an open standard?

 

[Dark Shroud]

Well considering the type of 3d you are talking about requires Nvidia drivers, Id say either program your own 3d driver or don't worry about it.

Please read the article, it's a full hardware lockout even on the monitor its self.

That's not to say I'm blindly supporting Nvidia's move on this. Nvidia thinks this is a wise business decision, and while it may hurt consumers and the 3d market, they can basically do whatever the hell they want with their drivers as long as its not malware.

Instead of calling Nvidia the bad guy, why don't you go complain to ATi to get their own 3d shutter method going.

ATI let's the IZ3D software/driver hook into their control software for people who want 3D with ATI cards. I kind of prefer this method as it gives a little more freedom.

Besides it doesn't fracture the PC gaming market again as Nvidia loves to do with pretty much everything.

I don't get it. It won't work on Nvidia cards but it's an open standard?

Please read the article, Nvidia has hardware checks to lock out ATI & their partners. Nvidia has a history of doing this.

Nvidia would also have to adopt the open standard for it to work on Nvidia's hardware.

 

[zagood]

Please read the article, it's a full hardware lockout even on the monitor its self.

I read the article. It's pretty vague in what's "locked out." Do they mean that ATI cards can't use 3D Vision drivers? Do the monitors not display when plugged into an ATI card? Do ATI cards not recognize and display @ 120hz?

Did a search, and looks like there was a problem with the 58xx cards not displaying at 120hz without an .INF workaround, but that's about it.

What are they talking about? Can you confirm from personal observation?

p.s. In a thread where someone's having a problem with a laptop not displaying @ 120hz..."When I connect the monitor to my older desktop PC with an ATI card, I have no problems..." - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=274091 so I don't know what the "lockout" is.

 

[Cookie Monster]

That was a little vague. What lock outs are they referring too? 120Hz works on all AMD cards. 3D support for games would have to be provided by AMD with drivers (Not sure what kind of role the devs play in implementing 3D stereoscopic gaming to their titles).

Maybe instead of playing the victim game yet again, they could have either worked on or released their equivalent 3D stereoscopic gaming.

 

[Ben90]

Wow Dark Shroud is really trying to spread the misinformation. 120hz monitors are not 'locked out' from doing 3D on ATi hardware. 120hz monitors are 'locked out' when using Nvidia's proprietary 3d system on ATi hardware.

If ATi made their own 3d system or if there was a non-proprietary 3d system out these monitors would not lock up. Its really hard to not seem like a Nvidia fanboy when discussing ATi's/Nvidia's software development team, but AMD business strategy is to say they are going to support something as an open standard and hope someone else develops it. They even say it in this article:

We're leaving it to the experts. We're not going to create this software and try and sell it to users. We're going to let these guys compete. There's two of them right now but there could be ten in the future. One thing that I can say though is that our total cost of ownership, the total cost of our solution will be cheaper than Nvidia's.

 

[rolodomo]

The Digital Versus article starts dramatically, but incorrectly.

Soon NVIDIA will no longer be alone in offering a 3D film and gaming solution with stereoscopic glasses. ATI's alternative is on the way and pulls the rug from under NVIDIA's 3D Vision system. In contrast to NVIDIA's proprietary system it proposes an open standard. What's more ATI seem to think the future of 3D lies more in films than gaming.

NVIDIA is releasing an open standard (HDMI) 3D technology called "3DTV Play." Here's a review:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/20/a-first-hand-look-at-nvidia-3dtv-play-and-powerdvd-3d/

 

[Ben90]

snip

 

[brybir]

The Digital Versus article starts dramatically, but incorrectly.



NVIDIA is releasing an open standard (HDMI) 3D technology called "3DTV Play." Here's a review:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/20/a-first-hand-look-at-nvidia-3dtv-play-and-powerdvd-3d/

I think that demonstrates ATI's overall point that having a vendor specific 3D implementation like Nvidia's current system where they sell "bundles" of specific monitors, cables and glasses is not sustainable in the long run and its better to have large amounts of competition to really drive price and innovation into the mainstream.

Looks to me from both articles that you can expect AMD's open standard attempt soon as well as Nvidias. Good to see both putting it out on the markets and competing, as it should be. And we should all be happy with this, as the stronger technology will dominate and the price should come down as mass acceptance occurs (if it does).

 

[ace55]

Its really hard to not seem like a Nvidia fanboy when discussing ATi's/Nvidia's software development team, but AMD business strategy is to say they are going to support something as an open standard and hope someone else develops it.

Exactly. I love open standards, but AMD seems to have the misconception that "supporting" open standards consists of not making their own standard AND not furthering the development of the open standard they "support". I'll take a polished closed standard over an inferior open standard any day. Thats probably why I own an iPhone, not an Android, despite the future I see in that platform.

 

[Dribble]

This got old years ago, when ati talk about open standards it basically means they aren't going to do anything.

See physics for which ati have been supporting *open standards* for years - i.e. there is no hw accelerated physics for radeons. Even when an open standard does exist nvidia normally support it better (on top of their own closed standard) - e.g. opencl support is better on nvidia then ati.

As for the fud in digital verses - the 120hz monitors are only that, LCD panels capable of being refreshed at 120hz. Ati cards do support that (eventually, all though it took them a good year to get around too it after ati users started complaining it was broken). There is nothing special about the monitors.

Sure the glasses are nvidia 3D vision only but you don't need to buy the glasses with the monitor - lots of glasses free 120hz monitors for sale. For that matter there are lots of lcd shutter glasses for sale that are nothing to do with nvidia.

You do realise the only reason we have any 120hz monitors at all, which many ati users are enjoying using, is because nvidia pushed monitor makers to produce some 120hz monitors for the PC to support their *nasty* closed standard.

 

[BFG10K]

All these monitors do is run at 120 Hz. So unless they’re blocking themselves from doing this on ATi’s parts, there’s really no story here.

 

[Dark Shroud]

http://www.digitalversus.com/3d-fil...s-from-ati-before-christmas-article-1086.html

SP: You know, with the 3D Vision programme, those monitors are locked out of working with ATI graphics cards. Nvidia locks out any cards other than theirs.

TM: There's a pin on the DVI connector which sends the signal to check the presence of an Nvidia graphics card. This is why those monitors won't work with us.

So you're saying that this block isn't simply at a software but at a hardware level?

TM: Absolutely yes. If you look at the DVI connector, you'll see one of those pins. A DVI connector has 11 pins. Actually only 4 or 5 of them are needed for the image information. The others are for optional data transfer (Editor's note: the number of pins given by Terry is approximate and no doubt concerns a single link DVI. For 3D connection with a 3D Vision kit, you need a 24-pin dual link DVI connector). That's the only way they can justify that $200 package for the glasses. If it was open to competition, the price of the package would drop very quickly to $40 or $50.

This was near the end of the article. I wanted to post this since I've been accused of spreading FUD. Can anyone say (actually prove) this (the article's content) is wrong or incorrect?

 

[BFG10K]

Can anyone say (actually prove) this (the article's content) is wrong or incorrect?

Easy - all we need is a Radeon owner with a 120 Hz display to confirm it's actually working at 120 Hz.

Here's one: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm2233rz_5.html

 

[Dribble]

Easy - all we need is a Radeon owner with a 120 Hz display to confirm it's actually working at 120 Hz.

Here's one: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm2233rz_5.html

There's plenty of users doing that. There were lots of problems for quite a while, particularly in 2D, these were ati driver problems (I think basic problem was gpu downclocking too far in 2D mode). As far as I know it's all working fine now. See big long thread about it:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=327884&highlight=ati+120hz+monitor

When you switch to a 3D game the monitors automatically switch to use max brightness and best response/ghosting/input lag mode. I bet that's the bit that is nvidia only.

 

[Ben90]

There's plenty of users doing that. There were lots of problems for quite a while, particularly in 2D, these were ati driver problems (I think basic problem was gpu downclocking too far in 2D mode). As far as I know it's all working fine now. See big long thread about it:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=327884&highlight=ati+120hz+monitor

When you switch to a 3D game the monitors automatically switch to use max brightness and best response/ghosting/input lag mode. I bet that's the bit that is nvidia only.

I have a 4890 and a 2233RZ since near release. I never experienced the 2D driver problem, although was aware of it. The monitor has always ran the way it was supposed to at 1680x1050, and with the release of Catalyst 10.4 the monitor runs perfectly at every resolution.

I cannot comment on the 3D aspect, although I would love to test it for you guys. I just have no idea where to get the software for it. If someone could point me in that direction it would probably put an end to this nonsense.

 

[tweakboy]

What a surprise what a surprise.....ATI AMD goofing off intern dev teams. or what^_^

 

[Dark Shroud]

I have a 4890 and a 2233RZ since near release. I never experienced the 2D driver problem, although was aware of it. The monitor has always ran the way it was supposed to at 1680x1050, and with the release of Catalyst 10.4 the monitor runs perfectly at every resolution.

I cannot comment on the 3D aspect, although I would love to test it for you guys. I just have no idea where to get the software for it. If someone could point me in that direction it would probably put an end to this nonsense.

There are others but this is the one I know of. http://www.iz3d.com/products

 

[Ben90]

Holy shit is this trippy as hell. I can officially confirm that 3d does in fact work with a 4890 using those iz3d drivers. I don't have the glasses, but I do have the stomach ache of running around in counter strike for about 10 minutes changing the separation from 0% to %5000. I tested it both on my 2233RZ and my FW900.

Since I don't have the glasses, I don't know what separation % you are supposed to be using, but I noticed textures popping up and leaving randomly using 100% separation. Obviously the game was optimized quite heavily without 3d in mind and I'm sure that is just a problem with the engine itself.

I'm also not sure because the screen shots are taken as if the 3d driver was not running (always right in the middle) but It looks like the rendered image is printed onto the screen with a dot matrix printer. It may just be an illusion because once again I do not have the glasses, so If someone with the glasses could comment that would be pretty sweet.

Other than that I can definitely say the 3d effect works. It may be an IP that is "locking" ATi out of doing its own 3d implementation, or its entirely possible that the guy in the interview was just full of shit.

 

[Skurge]

What exactly is the problem?

 

[Ben90]

There is no problem. There could be an equivalent CPU thread with the title:
"Current AMD processors are 'locked out' from doing computations on Intel motherboards"

 

[Skurge]

There is no problem. There could be an equivalent CPU thread with the title:
"Current AMD processors are 'locked out' from doing computations on Intel motherboards"

Yeah, It looked that way.

So what exactly is this "Block" they are talking about and what does it block?

 

[golem]

What exactly is the problem?

There really isn't a problem. Even if you take a second to think about it, it makes no sense. Nvidia is not a small company but neither are they that big. This story would have everyone believe that Nvidia was able to force/influence all the monitor manufacturers to lock one of the biggest selling points on their high end monitors to nvidia cards only... Total BS.

It's just the interviewee giving some vague bs answer and hoping enough people fall for it.