Cuban March

[MAW1082]

The reason Fidel Castro's government is humane is:

There are not tens of thousands of people living in poverty like there are in the civilized world. There are no ghettos / slums. That's my argument.

Thanks for not reverting to name calling Kage, you're an example to all people on this board who wish to have calm and rational discussions. As a prebubescent moron, I must get back to watching Nickelodeon and coloring.

 

[kage69]

There are not tens of thousands of people living in poverty like there are in the civilized world. There are no ghettos / slums. That's my argument.

That's not an argument, it's a cop out. You can't be humane if you lock people up for disagreeing with how you treat them. If Fidel was the benevolent provider you paint him as, he wouldn't be imprisoning his countrymen for voicing their opinions or trying to provide a better life for their families. PERIOD. By ignoring his treatment of 'unpatriotic' teachers, journalists, doctors, and businessmen, you sir, are a hypocrite.


"?The Cuban government's human rights practices were generally arbitrary and repressive. Hundreds of peaceful opponents of the government remained behind bars, and many more were subject to short-term detentions, house arrest, surveillance, arbitrary searches, evictions, travel restrictions, politically-motivated dismissals from employment, threats, and other forms of harassment. By criminalizing enemy propaganda, the spreading of "unauthorized news," and the insulting of patriotic symbols, the government effectively denied freedom of speech under the guise of protecting state security. The authorities also imprisoned or ordered the surveillance of individuals who had committed no illegal act, relying upon laws penalizing "dangerousness" (estado peligroso) and allowing for "official warning" (advertencia oficial). "
-Human Rights Watch, World Report 2000


"Individuals and groups peacefully exercising their rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly continued to face repression. In Cuba, repression of dissent is legitimized by the Constitution and the Penal Code. Some offences against state security, such as ''propaganda enemiga'', ''enemy propaganda'', as well as offences against authority, such as ''desacato'', ''disrespect'', have been widely applied to silence critics."
-Amnesty International, Country Report 2001


"Harassment of dissidents and independent initiatives by civil society has become much more institutionalized as well as more subtle. Not only are they harassed, but also their belongings are constantly confiscated. They are often not allowed to work or participate in the social and economic life of the country."
-Pax Christi, Cuba Report 2000


"? The practice of the Cuban authorities has not changed, nor have the constitutional and criminal law provisions on which they are based. In other words, there has been persistent harassment, accusations, the adoption of disciplinary measures, official warnings, and penalties involving deprivation of liberty against persons who peacefully displayed their disagreement with government policy. These groups are characterized by their desire to use only peaceful means in expressing their grievances, despite which the authorities consider their activities illegal, and they are persecuted in various forms".
-OAS Inter-American Commission on Human Rights 2000


"The Cuban constitution says that the media can "in no case" be in the hands of private owners, and that press freedom should be "in conformity with the goals of socialist society". In this context about one hundred journalists, gathered into about twenty independent agencies, try to exercise their right to inform. By calling them "counter-revolutionaries", President Fidel Castro, in power since January, 1959, is trying to isolate them at all costs from the population and maintain a tight grip on information. In practice the "maximo leader's" words translate into a veritable "strategy of harassment"
-Reporters Without Borders, Enemies of the Press, 2001



Regardless of what you believe, I'm sure these gentlemen would have to disagree with you and your myopic qualifications for what constitutes 'humane'.
And thank you! With your head stuck in a hole, you are an inspiration to trolls everywhere who seek to annoy others with hypocritical standards and irrelevent sidetracking. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find a library and learn to read.

 

[Helenihi]

Wait a second, did he just say no one in Cuba lives in Poverty?

Have you even been to Cuba? Have you at least talked with someone who has?

 

[MAW1082]

I can say about the "questionable" detainee of prisoners to be a universal truth of war. As the old saying goes, "all is fair in love an war." I think it to be true on both parts. Look bak at every war in history and you will see a series involving wars and counterintelligence.

That being said, the United States of America has repeatedly attempted to take the life of Fidel Castro either through military force or covert operations. This is a war. Bad things are going on on both sides. The government Fidel Castro attempted to create was an honest attempt by him to form a society for the people. The United States of America is paying people to infiltrate Cuban society and assassinate Castro.

The United States conjectures that if Castro is removed from power the society will crumble and once again be subject to the United States empire. It's simply and economic policy left over from the Cold War.

If you want to see a bunch of people with a political agenda getting together and citing evidence, I can read those things there. Or you could read an indictment of George Bush from the International War Crimes Tribunal.

But I live in the real world, Cuba is a very humane society.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The reason Fidel Castro's government is humane is:

There are not tens of thousands of people living in poverty like there are in the civilized world. There are no ghettos / slums. That's my argument.

Thanks for not reverting to name calling Kage, you're an example to all people on this board who wish to have calm and rational discussions. As a prebubescent moron, I must get back to watching Nickelodeon and coloring.

Pretty poor argument.
Cuba's Economy in the 1990s

"...
While Cuba ranked as one of Latin America's most prosperous economies during the late 1950s, Cuba's 1998 per capita gross domestic product (GDP) of $1,560 was among the lowest in Western Hemisphere, ranking above only Haiti, Suriname, Nicaragua, Guyana, and Honduras....
"

Cuba: Economic Summary

A report prepared by the ?Cuba Transition Project? in June 2003 indicates the following:

Living conditions in Cuba have deteriorated, as evinced by an acute housing shortage estimated at 1.66 million dwellings;

At least 13% of the population is clinically undernourished, as the state food rationing system now provides for only a week to 10 days of basic alimentary needs;

Unemployment reached 12%, based on official data, and as many as 30% of workers are displaced or underemployed;

With real wages down nearly 50% since 1989, and average salaries of $10 per month, university enrollment has fallen 46% as would-be college students opt for more lucrative jobs in the tourism industry;

Cuba is projected to have Latin America?s oldest population by 2025 with the island?s demographic growth rate now at 0.2%. The elderly are already the most vulnerable as real pensions have declined by 42% and most pensioners survive on the equivalent of $4 per month."


It sure doesn't look like an island paradise to me.

 

[kage69]

I can say about the "questionable" detainee of prisoners to be a universal truth of war. As the old saying goes, "all is fair in love an war." I think it to be true on both parts. Look bak at every war in history and you will see a series involving wars and counterintelligence

Again you portray how little you know about Cuba. Castro's regime throws citizens in prison for years over attending PEACEFUL PROTESTS, and in some cases for merely questioning the imprisonment of family members or prominent social figures. We're not talking about foreign spies or soldiers, we're talking about Cuban nationals who ask why their country is being run the way it is.

But I live in the real world, Cuba is a very humane society.

You live in a fantasy-land built from your own political idealogy, that much is clear. I didn't bother addressing the rest of your post as it simply is another attempt to sidetrack. Who does your sig refer to? It obviously isn't you.

 

[NumbersGuy]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
Kage69,

Have you ever ready any books about Cuba? Books written by Fidel Castro? Books about the conditions of pre-revolutionary Cuba? If you want to have a serious debate about Cuba, I'm open to it. I will say, however, that I have read many books specifically about Cuba, its economy, its healthcare system, and the attempts made by Americans to overthrow Fidel's government. So please. lets talk . . .

1. You have read the same stuff, rewritten over & over by lazy writers from each other's stuff. Pity.

2. Read books by Hitler too - in fact Castro's most revered comment "History will absolve me" comes directly from the Fuehrer, whom he greatly admired; his speaking style was learned thru watching Il Duce films. In fact Hitler provided great benefits to his nation, work, health, etc, before the total destruction part. Castro went directly to the last phase.

3. Economy - total ruin, agricultural production comparable Spanish times, with 4 times the population;

4. Healthcare - roughly similar to the worst HMO you could imagine, except worse;

5. Food, which is not free, has been rationed, example 1/4# of soy + ground beef mix (not the ground chuck) per month, for the last forty-two (42) years. In N Korea people have to eat grass and leaves, but we should aim for better. Also some thing like 2-3 eggs a month, incredible stuff.

6. Industrial output is laughable and less than before the "planned economy" The heavily Cuban city of Hialeah, FL, about two hundred thousand mostly working class people, has a "GNP" half of Cuba's with eleven million.

7. Average salary, in US$ about $4/month. (200 pesos / 25$/peso = 4$) may be up to 30/$.

8. Tourism, which is a low wage industry, controlled by foreign interests, and where blacks are not allowed to work, is the only actual income producing activity, actually second to....

9. Family remittances, the greatest income source for the country. Castro's latest protest involves that the alms received by his hostages may be reduced.

10. The"embargo" which you forgot to mention, is a joke; anything a country may need is available on international markets, except of course for regimes with no money who don't pay their debts.

Need cars? buy Japanese like we do. Need low cost medicine - Canada, like we do. Advanced medicines? Europe! (the good ones the evil FDA keeps us away from) Medical/industrial equipment: Germany, Japan. Wheat? Canada, Argentina. Meat, Costa Rica, Argentina (good stuff)

Of course at $4/month it'll be tough to get a $13,000 Civic, say 270 years iwith no expenses.

11. Check UN numbers, Cuba has unfortunately ranked in the top 5 for suicide and abortion rates in the world, it's birthrate is minimal. Hardly an indicator of happy campers.

In fact, most campers given the chance escape, from Castro's daughter to Soviet educated engineers to the humblest worker. Notice no Haitians, Dominicans, Jamaicans or Mexicans escape to Cuba.

12. Overall, the biggest dumbass MBA from the phoniest school could never come up with the crazy and stupid schemes that Castro has produced; he would destroy a McDonald's in week.

13. Castro's great merit is to be history's most PR savvy dictator. Welcome all these journalists/writers/actors like royalty, show them some projects (something has to built in 45 years, even by mistake some good may be created from stupidity), feed them your lines, charm them with b.o , and get articles and books written.

14. 99% of American "journalists"' Spanish is limited to "Corona, por favor", and can neither converse nor gain the trust of real people. Reporting about Cuba is mostly periodical PR, except that if it was paid it would not be so fellatious.

15. Yikes, I can't keep up. No he didn't liberate anybody, or fire a shot (except for shooting a student in the back) There was no serious guerrilla war, but lots of bombs in buses and theaters.

16. No, 99% didn't live in poverty. In fact, consider the homeless there would be better off than here by virtue of not freezing in the winter.

17. Income inequality? The difference between the richest in Cuba and the richest in the US, in the 1950s or now. cannot begin to be compared.

18. If the US cared to get rid of Castro, a couple of missiles to his luxurious planes when traveling would do it.

It's a pleasant surprised that in spite of the eternal PR campaign by the regime, many ATers are so well informed! So, there's some confused young pups, well meaning surely. Heck, I remember when I also knew everything...
Good night!

 

[MAW1082]

Hitler's theories are based on RACE. I will stop reading there. I don;t want to talk about race, as it only leads to conflict and death.

Race / Social Darwinism is the cause of much of the world's plight, but not all.

 

[Crimson]

Have anyone forgotten about how Cuba cooperated with the Soviet Union to attempt to get Nuclear weapons 90 miles from Miami? Thats the sign of a leader we should trust.

 

[Infohawk]

Crimson, no I haven't forgotten. Have you forgotten that at that time we had nuclear weapons in Turkey pointed at the Soviet Union? Have you forgotten that JFK attempted to invade Cuba in the Bay of Pigs fiasco? Have we had trustworthy leaders?

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: NumbersGuy

3. Economy - total ruin, agricultural production comparable Spanish times, with 4 times the population;
......
18. If the US cared to get rid of Castro, a couple of missiles to his luxurious planes when traveling would do it.

It's a pleasant surprised that in spite of the eternal PR campaign by the regime, many ATers are so well informed! So, there's some confused young pups, well meaning surely. Heck, I remember when I also knew everything...
Good night!

great summary numbersguy, much in the style your handle would suggest

 

[Infohawk]

Jagec, NumbersGuy is plainly misinformed.

I have travelled to Cuba and can tell you that his some of his facts are patently wrong. One example is his assertions blacks don't work in tourism. This is wrong. I have seen them working in the tourism industry.

Beyond that, it's unclear what his point is? That Cuba is a terrible place? What does this have to do with the Cuban march against Bush?

 

[NumbersGuy]

Infohawk: 1. Nukes in TK, very true (later withdrawn quietly as part of deal, with promise not to attack Castro) - I'll add the Soviets didn't need "anybody's permission" to protect their interests either. 2. St. JFK sent people to a preordained fiasco by reneging on his word; American pilots in carriers were eager to kick butt, CIA guys ignored orders and flew some B-26 missions. 3. No, don't now, looking back it depends on meaning of "trustworthy"


Infohawk 2: Your traveling to Cuba suggests you already sympathize w Mr. Castro and his regime. Blacks in tourism do not have contact with guests; in Spanish owned hotels they are not allowed at all, with the acceptance of the govt, who supplies the workers (somewhat similar to a union hall less union rights).

Tourism workers salaries are paid in dollars directly to the govt, who keeps the dollars and pays the workers (about) 10US$/month + the worthless pesos (ok, $4) = $14/month. Folks, including professionals such as engineers/architects /professors eagerly look for any jobs (say bellboy) with tourist contact for the tips; $5-10 a day, where people make $4/month, is a fortune.

One could also look at the picture of members of the Communist party central committe & count blacks with your fingers (hint: The Fugitive's wife's killer could do it)

Doubt your Spanish skills, your getting away from your tour, visiting a typical store, standing in a line in the morning at a store because there is a rumor that the next day socks may come in, walking 6 blocks to get water, or talk to anyone in the street beyond "Fidel good, Bush very very bad."

My post attempts to a) portray the actual situation, not the idyllic paradise painted by the media b) Note that the march, to protest reduction in remittances used to survive the regime, was a laughable, ridiculous and miserable PR stunt, to which people btw are pretty much forced to go.

I do hope you enjoyed the Varadero beach, we may agree it is the best in the world


MAW1080. I wasn't talking about the Hitler/race angle, although the race theories were his (2 pure races, Aryan & Jewish), Jewish people do not consider themselves a race, and recent science has considerably blurred and diminished basis for racial differences, but the Hitler/improvements vs. Castro/improvements angle, as in real vs. PR, and how both destroyed their countries.

Castro has not exterminated any Jews, but 95% of Cuban Jews are here. He has run concentration camps, forced labor camps and pretty bad prisons*. His adventures in Latin America and Africa caused as much grief, within his thankfully lesser means, as Hitler's. Little known fact, Cuba lost about 50,000 men in Africa (may be casualties, not just dead, can't confirm now); based on the population ratio about 1.36 million Americans.

*quick comparison to Abu-Grabi (sp?):
worse: rotten chicken feed for food
same: people kept naked and hosed or rifle butted at will
better: no homo stuff or sluts having sex in front of stacked naked prisoners.
worse: "gavetas" = drawers, clever narrow yet long cells, where several were stuffed yet could not turn around or lie down, as the cell width was less than shoulder width. :disgust:
better: once a month family visit. Conjugal vist, not sure if same or greater interval
worse: long sentences, extendable on whim
worse: no cameras, no guards w basic human decency to complain, nobody to complain to.
pick your poison

Your note reminds me of lawyer's rule-of-thumb #2.


Crimson: I haven't, but most (that darn media again) are not aware that Castro urged Kruschev to launch the nukes first, at which point Mr. K realized the Mr. C was really nuts.

Recall also that Castro inserted about 10,000 criminals, vicious criminals, criminally insane and plain insane folks along with refugees in 1980.

During his 2001, pre 9/11, tour through Iran, he smiled and nodded beatifically while the ruling Ayatollah proclaimed "the Iranian people with the Cuban people will bring American imperialists to their knees." Probably didn't make CNN.

Jagec: Thanks for your kind words, have to agree!


I do think that mutually respectful and fact-based arguments/dialogues/conversations are feasible and worthwhile by making people explain and possibly rethink their world models. May be impossible in some cases here, present company excluded.

Parting joke 1: Visiting Cuban-American to his Cuban cousin: "In the US we have freedom, I can say Bush is a fool and nothing happens to me", cousin replies "Big deal, I can also say Bush is a fool and nothing happens to me"

Pj 2, guy screaming in street of Old Havana "Fidel, s.o.b., killer, thief, you have destroyed this country" Cops drive up: "You are under arrest for offending the Maximum Leader" Suddenly realizing his situation, guy says "Come on officer, there's many Fidels, I wasn't offending the Maximum Leader" "Really?", says the cop, "the only Fidel s.o.b., killer, thief, that has destroyed this country is the Maximum Leader."

There's more, but I, unlike Castro, can not depend on handouts and have to get my work done. Excuse the long post, but there's a lot of misinformation out there.

 

[MAW1082]

I'm sure we could point out many things wrong with Cuba, as well as EVERY other country in the world. All I am saying is that Fidel Castro created a humane society. It's an opinion about a society that is certainly not perfect.

But in the defense of Castro, it's pretty hard to create a society when the US has spies secretly infilitrating it and attempting to assassinate its leaders. Just like the Red Scare in the US, I'm sure some similar things have happened in Cuba.