Cryptocoin Mining?

Discussion in 'Video Cards and Graphics' started by Chiropteran, May 24, 2011.

  1. Joepublic2

    Joepublic2 Golden Member

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    It's all good I didn't realize were were having an engineering minded argument. We are the best kind of correct; technically correct. :)
     
    #2351 Joepublic2, Feb 22, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  2. dajeepster

    dajeepster Golden Member

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    that's why i normally just crack jokes around my family and friends... otherwise i get these blank looks. I'd much rather hear their laughs than their silence. ;)
     
  3. allenk09

    allenk09 Senior member

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    I made 0.013 bitcoins in 5 hours, not worth it.
     
  4. Chiropteran

    Chiropteran Diamond Member

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    Sounds about right.
     
  5. Crisis!

    Crisis! Junior Member

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    Bitcoin mining would have been a lot more profitable for early adopters, but from now on the value is just going down quickly as the difficulty increases, it isn't worth it anymore.
     
  6. Chiropteran

    Chiropteran Diamond Member

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    Unlikely. There would be no incentive to mine if difficulty increased and value dropped beyond a certain point. If the miners quit mining, difficulty drops.

    I'm not saying bitcoins can't fail, I could see the downward value trend continuing hypothetically- but if it did difficulty would not continue to rise indefinitely. A real "failure" would lead to bitcoins going down to less than 1 penny each, and difficulty dropping to 1/100 of what it is right now. It can get worse than it is, but there is an eventual limit where miners quit in droves and things turn around.
     
  7. MrTeal

    MrTeal Platinum Member

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    If you want to claim that it's not 100% efficient, you have to provide a viable path for energy to exit the system of your home. I will give you that it is likely not actually 100% efficient, but it's probably five 9s or so. Keep in mind your computer might generate noise, which is a pressure wave and not directly heat, but the vast majority of that would still be absorbed within the confines of your house. The heat of the tower could emit blackbody radiation, but hopefully the outside of your tower isn't more than a few degrees above ambient. You could argue that the bitcoin traffic causes a loss of energy from your house system when your cable/dsl modem is transmitting, but I would guess even if that case the effect is vanishingly small. You could say the same about light; if you have a crapload of LEDs on the outside of your case, and there's a window nearby and some light escapes, you might lose a few microwatts at best, but that's about it.

    Really, the wear and tear argument is totally valid, especially if you're running at full fan speed and elevated temperature. The noise being annoying is also very valid. That claim that bitcoin mining is wasteful of energy when the home is already being heated by electricity is completely wrong though, from an HVAC perspective it's just as efficient as a baseboard heater and you have the bonus of doing useful work at the same time.

    nope... that's completely wrong.. unless it's on fire.. then you'll also get that caustic smoke too.

    That makes no sense. If your rig was on fire, you would be converting chemical energy into heat, not electrical.
    You're an EE, so this should be a fairly easy example. Do a mental energy balance on a hypothetical system. It consumes 500W. At the start, it is not expelling 500W of heat as it's cold. Some of the energy is used to raise the components above ambient and is stored in the system. As the system warms up, it eventually reaches equilibrium with the environment and temperatures stabilize. You're still pumping 500W into it, so where is that energy going?
    1) Heat
    2) Sound
    3) Light
    Nothing to do with lighting anything on fire.
    2 is vanishingly small. If your system is producing 60dB@1m, the total power of the pressure wave is 12.6uW. Almost all of that would be absorbed be the air or walls before it ever exited the house.
    3 is also tiny. The system will emit blackbody IR, but even if there are a lot of windows in the room any kind of coated window is designed to keep that in the house. The actual amount of energy that will be lost to light will be tiny, and wouldn't actually be much different than a baseboard heater anyway.
     
  8. dajeepster

    dajeepster Golden Member

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    caustic smoke is a reference to a chemical fire

    and you also missed the joke :p
     
  9. Chiropteran

    Chiropteran Diamond Member

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    Hmm, this might be the beginning of the end for GPU mining.

    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65752.0

    Not sure if these are FPGA or ASIC or what.

    For $600, you can buy a BFL single which does over 800mhash at around 80watts. That beats the 7970 for efficiency and cost. Some older cards are still a better deal in the $/mhash measure but over time the electricity usage will make them more expensive.

    Still, 7970 has a huge advantage in that you can also use it to game, and it would be a lot easier to resell if this whole bitcoin thing fails. I'm not really in a position to upgrade my mining operation in any way at all right now, so it's not a huge concern for me.

    Just something to think about long term, eventually these sort of devices may make it unprofitable to GPU mine.
     
  10. airdata

    airdata Diamond Member

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    Oh wow...

    $600/800+mh and very little power usage. Indeed a game changer for mining.

    They also have another listed that does 50,000MH but no pricing or anything on their site.
     
    #2360 airdata, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  11. MrTeal

    MrTeal Platinum Member

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    The price is listed on their site, $25000. That's 2MHash/$, which is crazy. I'm supposed to be picking up four 5850s today for $430, but things like this make me rethink it. Two BFL singles would give me slightly more MHash, but with 1/5 the electricity cost.
     
  12. airdata

    airdata Diamond Member

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    Exactly.

    When I had my mining set up... my house was rather rediculous. My office was a piping 90+ and super loud.

    With these I could have a more efficient setup than what I had before just sitting on my desk. I don't plan on sinking any more money into btc at the moment though. Surely these guys have thousands of these on back order.
     
  13. dajeepster

    dajeepster Golden Member

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    i want one... just to play with.. :hmm:
     
  14. airdata

    airdata Diamond Member

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    I'd consider buying a couple if difficulty were lower.

    If they use 85w for real that would only be around 25-30 cents per day in electricity usage. When I had my set up going I had a couple $600 electric bills :(

    Pretty risky to invest in hardware. I'd think this would be worth if if you had existing mining hardware to sell in order to buy these. But the current estimated payoff on one of these is 278 days.
     
    #2364 airdata, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  15. dajeepster

    dajeepster Golden Member

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    i want one to reverse engineer, and then build a cluster. :)

    if i had one in hand, i know i could reverse engineer it.
     
  16. Darkstar757

    Darkstar757 Diamond Member

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    YGPM!
     
  17. Joseph F

    Joseph F Diamond Member

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    I see a plan in motion. :thumbsup:
     
  18. Minjin

    Minjin Platinum Member

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    This is exactly why I'm mining. For the heat. I can either turn the space heater on to the left of me or turn up the work on the computer to the right of me. I'm even CPU mining because I don't care one bit about "efficient" mining. Of course, when I stop needing heat, the mining will stop. I OC the computer and game in the winter. I UC the computer and minimize gaming in the summer. It's all about those laws of physics...

    I get ~243 from a 6850 and 16.1 from 3 cores of my 2500k while surfing.
     
  19. Smartazz

    Smartazz Diamond Member

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    I was about to ask why you would mine on a CPU until I read the later part of your statement. You should come run some BOINC projects with us. We're doing quite well on the World Community Grid leaderboard and your 2500K would be a nice help!
     
  20. Chiropteran

    Chiropteran Diamond Member

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    Hum. Value has been bouncing back up, high of $5 today. The rumor of bitcoin's demise has been greatly exaggerated.
     
  21. railven

    railven Diamond Member

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  22. Elcs

    Elcs Diamond Member

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    Still wondering if I should bother getting my 6870 CrossfireX setup doing this work.

    I'm just not sure that the value per bitcoin is worth the power cost.
     
  23. MrTeal

    MrTeal Platinum Member

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    Depends on the value of BTC and the power cost. Based on some conservative estimates from my setup (I get 320MHash@180W using a single 6870), if you got 600MHash@300W and paid US$0.20/kWh your breakever point would be about US$3.6/BTC. Realistically you could probably do better for MHash/W, and if your power costs were lower that would help as well.
     
  24. airdata

    airdata Diamond Member

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    Unless the difficulty level drastically drops, no.

    When I first ventured into mining ( WAYYY late ) difficulty was ~200k. By the time I had my maximum setup going, it was at least 1,000,000. Current difficulty is 1,496,979 and supposed to drop a tiny bit.

    You'd need a setup pumping @ 10-20Gh w\ hardware paid for to be thinking of making a profit.

    Running 2 6870's full boar 24/7 is going to likely use more electricity than money made mining btc.

    Also, at some point blocks will yield 25 bitcoins instead of 50... if this has not happened already. So at that point you're going to get 1/2 the yield for the same amount of work.
     
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