Creationism, Evolution, taking the Bible literally - here are the root of these conflicts as best I can explain it

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Some Christians take the Bible literally.

Some do not - they take a heck of a lot of it, especially the old Testament as allegory.

In fact, most mainstream denomination do not - even if they are Protestant.

Apostolic denominations - Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics, have no problem with evolution.


Originally, the Church canonized the Bible.

This means many men over thousands of years wrote thousands of scrolls and "holy" texts in many languages, mostly later translated into Hebrew and Greek.

Then some more men, well after Christianity existed, - remember Christianity existed long before the Bible - took all these texts and scrolls, and prayed, and meditated, and discussed and decided which ones were divinely inspired.

Remember this was done by a church held later to be fallible by most protestants, but also held to have not been fallible at this particular time when they canonized the Bible. They only became fallible, afterwards in 1542.

No copy of the text originally canonized is known to exist today.

Without the Church, no one would have any idea what was in the Bible. Only the religious elite had any idea what it said. Christianity was something of a 3 legged stool. You had Scripture, the teaching of the Church, and tradition.
¡°Sola Scriptura¡± (Scripture alone) is a new idea from around the Protestant reformation. You see, once you reject the teachings of the church, your sole authority must rely completely on the Bible.

So what?
What are the problems with this? Well, we have no original copies of the Bible. And, we do have copies with errors. We know this because we can compare old remaining texts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus 4th century and Codex Vaticanus, from around 1209. They are partially incomplete and contain different versions of the same passages. These are not malicious errors, some monk simply made a few mistakes, omitting, or repeating passages as he scribed the text by hand with a quill under candlelight. Surely you can understand that even with the best intentions, mistakes were made.

Examples of errors in th Bible:

A:
Mark 16: 9 ¨C 20
The most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20.
Mark ends at 16:8 Mark 16 9-20 were added later
Not inerrant

B:
1 Kings 7:26
It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths.
2 Chronicles 4
It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held three thousand baths.
two thousand != three thousand?

C:
Mathew 27:9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
Jeremiah != Zechariah

D:
Mark 15:26 The written notice of the charge against him read:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Matthew 27:37Above his head they placed the written charge against him:
THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Luke 23:38 There was a written notice above him, which read:|
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

These give great credence to the truth of the matter, but they are certainly not inerrant - at least 3 of them contain the wrong writing.


The Church existed before the New Testament.
Men of this Church decided which ancient scrolls were canon.
These were repeatedly copied by hand by monks and mistakes were made.
Some Churches accept the deuterocanonical texts, while others reject it:
One of them must not be inerrant.

Inerrancy is necessary neither for salvation nor spiritual guidance.
Once the teachings of the church or its guidance are rejected, as in the reformation, you are almost forced to accept biblical inerrancy, otherwise where is the authority? This dilemma is at the heart of the conflict between Christians, non-Christians, and folks who take the Bible literally or in errantly.
 

ScoobMaster

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2001
2,528
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Glen,

I appluad you for the logical way this is presented and for taking the time and thought to write such a lengthy and intelligent post.

That said, I predict that sadly it will be a matter of minutes before someone posts a non-intelligent flame or derogatory comment. (I hope I am wrong) :)
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Glen, is your point that the Bible isn't authoritative based on the examples you cited and that the only authoritative reference is the church?

What church are you refering to?
 

steveeast112

Banned
Dec 22, 2002
230
0
0
OK, what is with everyone trying to rationalize religion? It's a BELIEF. You don't have to believe in God or Jesus or Christian teachings if you don't want to.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Interesting post. I have met many people who seriously believe that "if it's in the Bible, it is literal truth", and very interesting discussions arise when such things are questioned. It'll be interesting to see what petrek's opinion is, as I know he's really into this.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Glen, is your point that the Bible isn't authoritative based on the examples you cited and that the only authoritative reference is the church?

What church are you refering to?

I don't know how I could make my post any clearer.

I explain the origin of the Bible as created by Christians, who existed long before the bible.

I explain problems with the Bible - it is not inerrant.

I explain why folks want it to be inerrant.

There is a mis conception that Christians take the old testament creation story literally. However, the majority of Christians don't. I am not arguing which side is right or wrong. I am just explaining how these sides exist and why. Most of it comes down to Protestants who believe in sola scripture - the Bible as sole authority, and Apostolics who take the Bible, the Church, and Tradition for guidance. I did not say who was right, I just tried to explain the exact nature of the conflict.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: steveeast112
OK, what is with everyone trying to rationalize religion? It's a BELIEF. You don't have to believe in God or Jesus or Christian teachings if you don't want to.

Again, I never said it was true or not.

We could be talking about Star Wars and Jedi Knights for all purposes.
The point is what do the Jedi believe and why are there different beliefs.
The guy who jumps in the thread and says Jedi Knights are a made up story has completely missed the point.

 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Interesting post. I have met many people who seriously believe that "if it's in the Bible, it is literal truth", and very interesting discussions arise when such things are questioned. It'll be interesting to see what petrek's opinion is, as I know he's really into this.

Well he takes it literally.
I am not sayign he is right or wrong.

But, what I want to do is shed some light onto why folks hold these different beliefs.
I think that helps us all, no matter what our personal beliefs are, to understand why other folsk hold hteir beliefs.

I also want folks to realise that MOST Christian DO NOT take it literally.

Some denomination explicitly state that the old testament is almsot completely allegory.
Well, maybe they are wrong, going to hell, or wearing black Nikes waithing for the alien space craft.
That is not my point.

The point is simply that people need to realize that most Christians, be they right or wrong, DON"T take it literally.
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
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Good points.

Consider what happens when someone rejects the original church. Take a modern day fundamentalist. Your point is that the fundamentalist takes the bible so literally b/c he has no other source of authority to appeal too. For example, he can't refer to the catholic doctrine to support his belief that birth control is against God's will. I had never quite given it thought, but that makes a lot of sense. In this example, I believe there would also be the reliance on a literal interpretation to transfer authority from the Bible to the fundamentalist, setting up a tautological arguement by authority.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
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Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Interesting post. I have met many people who seriously believe that "if it's in the Bible, it is literal truth", and very interesting discussions arise when such things are questioned. It'll be interesting to see what petrek's opinion is, as I know he's really into this.

Well he takes it literally.
I am not sayign he is right or wrong.

But, what I want to do is shed some light onto why folks hold these different beliefs.
I think that helps us all, no matter what our personal beliefs are, to understand why other folsk hold hteir beliefs.

I also want folks to realise that MOST Christian DO NOT take it literally.

Some denomination explicitly state that the old testament is almsot completely allegory.
Well, maybe they are wrong, going to hell, or wearing black Nikes waithing for the alien space craft.
That is not my point.

The point is simply that people need to realize that most Christians, be they right or wrong, DON"T take it literally.

You're saying that the Bible contains errors. Therefore, it's wrong to take it literally, no?

I must be stupid because I'm failing to see your point.

Can you pretend I'm a second grader and make it clearer to me?

 

GtPrOjEcTX

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
10,784
6
81
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: Riprorin
What church are you refering to?
I don't know how I could make my post any clearer.

I explain the origin of the Bible as created by Christians, who existed long before the bible.

I explain problems with the Bible - it is not inerrant.

I explain why folks want it to be inerrant.

There is a mis conception that Christians take the old testament creation story literally. However, the majority of Christians don't. I am not arguing which side is right or wrong. I am just explaining how these sides exist and why. Most of it comes down to Protestants who believe in sola scripture - the Bible as sole authority, and Apostolics who take the Bible, the Church, and Tradition for guidance. I did not say who was right, I just tried to explain the exact nature of the conflict.
[Neo]But you didn't answer the question[/Neo]
 

ScoobMaster

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2001
2,528
10
81
Hey Glen - again I must give you kudos. We could use some more examples like yourself that can intelligently present facts and opinions and debate them as educated adults :)

My only regret is that my ULTRA fundamentalist "Bible is literal TRUTH of all truths" co-worker that really needs to read this thread is out on vacation this week :( Him and I have had some classic religios dogma and faith vs. scientifically observed facts "over the office partition" debates here.
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Interesting post. I have met many people who seriously believe that "if it's in the Bible, it is literal truth", and very interesting discussions arise when such things are questioned. It'll be interesting to see what petrek's opinion is, as I know he's really into this.

Well he takes it literally.
I am not sayign he is right or wrong.

But, what I want to do is shed some light onto why folks hold these different beliefs.
I think that helps us all, no matter what our personal beliefs are, to understand why other folsk hold hteir beliefs.

I also want folks to realise that MOST Christian DO NOT take it literally.

Some denomination explicitly state that the old testament is almsot completely allegory.
Well, maybe they are wrong, going to hell, or wearing black Nikes waithing for the alien space craft.
That is not my point.

The point is simply that people need to realize that most Christians, be they right or wrong, DON"T take it literally.

You're saying that the Bible contains errors. Therefore, it's wrong to take it literally, no?

I must be stupid because I'm failing to see your point.

Can you pretend I'm a second grader and make it clearer to me?


I think what he is saying is that 'the bible' is actually a collection of writings that goes well beyond any single version (e.g., King James) or its written form. A person who takes a literal interpretation of the bible will run into inconsistencies that are either due to transcription errors or due to errors associated with the biases of the people who decided what scrolls/texts to include in that particular version. Like any large written work, editting improses bias. He real point though is that WHY people take the bible literally is in part related to the fact that they have seperated themselves from the 'church' that has the historical role in developing the bible as their core religious manifest can ONLY rely on one particular version of the Bible.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
Hey Glen - again I must give you kudos. We could use some more examples like yourself that can intelligently present facts and opinions and debate them as educated adults :)

My only regret is that my ULTRA fundamentalist "Bible is literal TRUTH of all truths" co-worker that really needs to read this thread is out on vacation this week :( Him and I have had some classic religios dogma and faith vs. scientifically observed facts "over the office partition" debates here.

The thing with people like your co-worker is they somehow attach this mysterious magic to the Bible. All other ancient works (from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Egyptians, Native Americans, etc.) are written with imagery and symbolism as mechanisms of storytelling. Yet, somehow, the ancient Hebrews are to be taken at face value. It's completely illogical.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: Riprorin
What church are you refering to?
I don't know how I could make my post any clearer.

I explain the origin of the Bible as created by Christians, who existed long before the bible.

I explain problems with the Bible - it is not inerrant.

I explain why folks want it to be inerrant.

There is a mis conception that Christians take the old testament creation story literally. However, the majority of Christians don't. I am not arguing which side is right or wrong. I am just explaining how these sides exist and why. Most of it comes down to Protestants who believe in sola scripture - the Bible as sole authority, and Apostolics who take the Bible, the Church, and Tradition for guidance. I did not say who was right, I just tried to explain the exact nature of the conflict.
[Neo]But you didn't answer the question[/Neo]

Well obviously the early church was neither Catholic nor Orthodox as it was before the schism. I don't know the exact name or how it is referred. It was illegal to be Christian, so they were not holding TV shows or fund raisers at the time, much less building churches. They typically met in graveyards at the tombs of martyred (eaten by lions) Christians, and held the communion ritual over the tomb. That is why alters in many Churches look like stone tombs. Traditionally they also held in them a piece, hand, leg, arm of a Saint.

 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
Hey Glen - again I must give you kudos. We could use some more examples like yourself that can intelligently present facts and opinions and debate them as educated adults :)

My only regret is that my ULTRA fundamentalist "Bible is literal TRUTH of all truths" co-worker that really needs to read this thread is out on vacation this week :( Him and I have had some classic religios dogma and faith vs. scientifically observed facts "over the office partition" debates here.

The thing with people like your co-worker is they somehow attach this mysterious magic to the Bible. All other ancient works (from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Egyptians, Native Americans, etc.) are written with imagery and symbolism as mechanisms of storytelling. Yet, somehow, the ancient Hebrews are to be taken at face value. It's completely illogical.

Not only is it illogical, it is a fairly recent phenomena - Mostly American, protestant, and within the last 100 to 150 years.
 

ScoobMaster

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2001
2,528
10
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
Hey Glen - again I must give you kudos. We could use some more examples like yourself that can intelligently present facts and opinions and debate them as educated adults :)

My only regret is that my ULTRA fundamentalist "Bible is literal TRUTH of all truths" co-worker that really needs to read this thread is out on vacation this week :( Him and I have had some classic religios dogma and faith vs. scientifically observed facts "over the office partition" debates here.

The thing with people like your co-worker is they somehow attach this mysterious magic to the Bible. All other ancient works (from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Egyptians, Native Americans, etc.) are written with imagery and symbolism as mechanisms of storytelling. Yet, somehow, the ancient Hebrews are to be taken at face value. It's completely illogical.


Yep - it is frustrating. When his whole worldview and frame of reference is based on assumptions that are illogical it makes rational debate difficult if not impossible. Usually when I make some valid points about flaws in his thinking or inconsistancies in the bible (easy in the old testament) he retreats to "I know truth and the TRUTH is the truth" and then further debate is pointless.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: ScoobMaster
Hey Glen - again I must give you kudos. We could use some more examples like yourself that can intelligently present facts and opinions and debate them as educated adults :)

My only regret is that my ULTRA fundamentalist "Bible is literal TRUTH of all truths" co-worker that really needs to read this thread is out on vacation this week :( Him and I have had some classic religios dogma and faith vs. scientifically observed facts "over the office partition" debates here.

The thing with people like your co-worker is they somehow attach this mysterious magic to the Bible. All other ancient works (from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Egyptians, Native Americans, etc.) are written with imagery and symbolism as mechanisms of storytelling. Yet, somehow, the ancient Hebrews are to be taken at face value. It's completely illogical.


Yep - it is frustrating. When his whole worldview and frame of reference is based on assumptions that are illogical it makes rational debate difficult if not impossible. Usually when I make so valid points about flaws in his thinking or inconsistancies (easy in the old testament) hey retreats to "I know truth and the TRUTH is the truth" and then further debate is pointless.

Ayup.

Well...what's that saying about arguing with a moron? :)
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Interesting post. I have met many people who seriously believe that "if it's in the Bible, it is literal truth", and very interesting discussions arise when such things are questioned. It'll be interesting to see what petrek's opinion is, as I know he's really into this.

Well he takes it literally.
I am not sayign he is right or wrong.

But, what I want to do is shed some light onto why folks hold these different beliefs.
I think that helps us all, no matter what our personal beliefs are, to understand why other folsk hold hteir beliefs.

I also want folks to realise that MOST Christian DO NOT take it literally.

Some denomination explicitly state that the old testament is almsot completely allegory.
Well, maybe they are wrong, going to hell, or wearing black Nikes waithing for the alien space craft.
That is not my point.

The point is simply that people need to realize that most Christians, be they right or wrong, DON"T take it literally.

You're saying that the Bible contains errors. Therefore, it's wrong to take it literally, no?

I must be stupid because I'm failing to see your point.

Can you pretend I'm a second grader and make it clearer to me?

There are 2 points:
1. The Bible contains errors. I listed many in my first post.
That does not mean not to take it literally; it just means it does contain errors, and that is just about impossible to dispute.

2. The reason people take it literally is a process that spans from the protestant reformation to something modern and fairly American. Once Church authority is forsaken, all you have left is the Bible, hence the idea of ?sola scriiptura.? Maybe ?sola scriptura? is the right thing. I am not saying it isn't, but it is most certainly not they way Christianity was practiced for 1500 years. You have to realize Christianity is older than the Bible. So, somehow you have to realize Christianity is something which can existed WITHOUT the Bible.

3. To be fair, there is a problem also with the so-called 3 legged stool of Scripture, Church teachings, and Tradition. We know without a doubt the church has made horrible mistakes and abused their power.

I believe in God. He has worked in my life in real tangible empirical ways. I do not hold either the Bible or the Church to be infallible, nor do I need them to be in order for me to have faith. It is ok. I gain from reading the Bible. I learn much from tradition, and I feel a peace going to church.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
IMO, you have to take the Bible literally, or just blow off the whole thing. Who decides what's literally true, and what isn't? How can you wrap your life around one part of the Bible, and dismiss other parts as mere stories and fables? Where would you draw the line? Kind of explains why there are so many factions, eh?
 

GtPrOjEcTX

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
10,784
6
81
Originally posted by: Ornery
IMO, you have to take the Bible literally, or just blow off the whole thing. Who decides what's literally true, and what isn't? How can you wrap your life around one part of the Bible, and dismiss other parts as mere stories and fables? Where would you draw the line? Kind of explains why there are so many factions, eh?
exactly.
 

GtPrOjEcTX

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
10,784
6
81
You have to realize Christianity is older than the Bible.
Explain that one again to a person that believes it is literal, hence Moses and David and etc. wrote parts of the Old Test. Certainly the Bible as a whole collection of books was assembled after Christianity was begun, but the works predated Jesus's time (Christianity)