Question CPU mining - "Raptorium". Now also "Avian".

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legcramp

Golden Member
May 31, 2005
1,669
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Wow! $8 a day is nearly the revenue whattomine estimates for my 3090 in ETH! How would a 5900X do?
I am seeing around $6 for a 5900X. Note the difficulty for this coin is rising pretty high each day since a bunch of YouTubers started making content on it so the profitability is going to vary depending on the price of the coin and the difficulty. There is a calculator for it but it's pretty crap and inaccurate so I am using my own numbers of coins I am mining each day to calculate:

 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,267
430
126
i checked out the raptorium site. the only thing they seem to be offering is gpu/asic resistant algo and a priority on "security", beyond that they arent any different than eth. its a pretty sparse whitepaper which doesnt inspire much confidence.

the only people who will use their tokens for contracts are the niche who want PoW and dont trust/understand PoS. that is a very edge case.

i dont see a compelling case for this coin, and im bullish on blockchain in theory. the general public is never going to hear about or care enough about raptorium to get investors to speculate out of anything than btc/eth fomo.

at best case, in a year all the idiots spending absurd amounts of money on cpu/ram farms will be selling parts cheap.
as chia flopped, thus raptorium, so mote it be.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
@gorobei

Raptoreum is hybrid PoW/PoS since you can stake your RTM with smart nodes. So if you do not trust PoS, you would need to avoid Raptoreum. It also seems like over 2/3rd the existing supply of RTM is currently staked in a smart node somewhere. The promise of 8% (or higher) annual returns is drawing a lot of interest, even if the token itself doesn't really differentiate itself from existing chains.

The growth in market cap has been meteoric. I was considering buying at $.007 or so but I got in too late, and the few exchanges selling tokens looked really dodgy anyway. TradeOgre? SouthXchange? Ehhh. Anyway prolly too late, and the entire thing could collapse overnight if/when someone wakes up and realizes that it really isn't good for anything vs. Cardano.
 

Space Tyrant

Member
Feb 14, 2017
149
115
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@gorobei

Raptoreum is hybrid PoW/PoS since you can stake your RTM with smart nodes. So if you do not trust PoS, you would need to avoid Raptoreum.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I just wanted to say that even though I'm one of those people who doesn't trust PoS, I do still like Raptoreum.

My problem with PoS is only that it isn't a complete substitute for PoW. As a complement to PoW, I actually like it, and I think that it is part of RTM's appeal. Without PoW, there is no stabilizing link to value in the real world.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
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I don't disagree with anything you said. I just wanted to say that even though I'm one of those people who doesn't trust PoS, I do still like Raptoreum.

My problem with PoS is only that it isn't a complete substitute for PoW. As a complement to PoW, I actually like it, and I think that it is part of RTM's appeal. Without PoW, there is no stabilizing link to value in the real world.
I'm the opposite. PoW has had its time in the sun but needs to go. It just can't be done efficiently. Far too many computational resources are wasted on it. CureCoin and GRIDCoin had promise, but sadly that ship sailed and nobody was on board.

As far as the underlying chain of Raptoreum is concerned, it looks like it mixes privacy features with (supposed) cheap + quick on-chain transactions with room for second-layer solutions on top of that. Not sure if that will ever manifest though.
 

Space Tyrant

Member
Feb 14, 2017
149
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I'm the opposite. PoW has had its time in the sun but needs to go. It just can't be done efficiently. Far too many computational resources are wasted on it.
One might argue that the banking industry is a much larger waste of energy and has had a bit more time in the sun.

Pure PoS coins have the weakness that their value is derived solely from speculation. Has anything been invented in the PoS world that can drive a dynamic value balance?

But, getting back to CPU mining, perhaps PoW can be done (much) more efficiently. Have you ever noticed that some CPU-bound programs are 'power viruses' while others consume very little energy? The early, very small PoW algos were/are power viruses while the larger ASIC resistant algos aren't so hungry.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
One might argue that the banking industry is a much larger waste of energy and has had a bit more time in the sun.
No, they really can't, at least not compared to Bitcoin. Run the numbers. BTC winds up looking foolish. Maybe RTM can do better, but still: why choose to benchmark yourself against traditional fiat when you can have something like PoS instead?

Pure PoS coins have the weakness that their value is derived solely from speculation.
The value of PoW coins is also derived from speculation. Hashpower has nothing to do with it.

But, getting back to CPU mining, perhaps PoW can be done (much) more efficiently. Have you ever noticed that some CPU-bound programs are 'power viruses' while others consume very little energy? The early, very small PoW algos were/are power viruses while the larger ASIC resistant algos aren't so hungry.
So long as people can throw more hardware at the problem for more profits, PoW will be a problem.
 
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Space Tyrant

Member
Feb 14, 2017
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No, they really can't, at least not compared to Bitcoin. Run the numbers. BTC winds up looking foolish.
Some effort has been put toward that here: https://docsend.com/view/adwmdeeyfvqwecj2 Bitcoin doesn't look so foolish in comparison. I'm not defending BTC, btw, I'm not a fan. A much better cryptocurrency may yet emerge, but BTC might also change faster than any other coin can catch up.
The value of PoW coins is also derived from speculation. Hashpower has nothing to do with it.
This is simply not true. While speculation is surely the *main* driver of BTC value atm, the ratio of mining return to the cost of energy expended obviously does affect decisions of whether or not to mine -- and helps firm up the bottom range for the value of a bitcoin.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
This is simply not true. While speculation is surely the *main* driver of BTC value atm, the ratio of mining return to the cost of energy expended obviously does affect decisions of whether or not to mine -- and helps firm up the bottom range for the value of a bitcoin.
Seems like you're ignoring the numerous PoW coins that have gone to 0. Mining provides no intrinsic value to a blockchain or its tokens.

FWIW payment networks like Visa, Mastercard, SWIFT, etc. vastly outperform Bitcoin. Maybe if you're looking at flying bundles of paper notes between international airports . . .sure. But then you run up against the txn limitations, which makes Bitcoin wholly impractical. Throwing in gold mining (for example) just muddies the waters, which is why I ignore assessments such as those.
 

Space Tyrant

Member
Feb 14, 2017
149
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Seems like you're ignoring the numerous PoW coins that have gone to 0. Mining provides no intrinsic value to a blockchain or its tokens.

FWIW payment networks like Visa, Mastercard, SWIFT, etc. vastly outperform Bitcoin. Maybe if you're looking at flying bundles of paper notes between international airports . . .sure. But then you run up against the txn limitations, which makes Bitcoin wholly impractical. Throwing in gold mining (for example) just muddies the waters, which is why I ignore assessments such as those.
Yes, I am ignoring "numerous PoW coins..." because I wasn't defending any coin, just PoW. You can make a bad and pointless PoW coin just as you can make a pointless PoS coin.

The important difference is simply that PoW provides a link to the real world; the laws of physics. That's one additional money-like characteristic that PoS coins do not provide.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
The important difference is simply that PoW provides a link to the real world; the laws of physics. That's one additional money-like characteristic that PoS coins do not provide.
And my point is that a link to the real world won't prevent a token from zeroing out. There's just no value proposition there. PoW alone isn't enough to add value to any blockchain project. It's people willing to run nodes and serve as transaction validators that makes a decentralized blockchain work.

The notion that PoW - in particular, the amount of energy spent on PoW - adds intrinsic value to the blockchain is a misnomer promulgated by Bitcoin maximalists in particular as a way to defend BTC's wasteful PoW algorithm. Even if BTC saw its hashrate propoprtionately decrease by 90% overnight, it would not change it's market value. The number of validators would be the same and the blockchain rewards would be the same (after difficulty adjusted downward). There's no actual link between hashrate and the market value of the token. Of course that's never going to happen since people will not voluntarily take mining hardware offline. But, the relationship between increased total hashrate and token value is not related in the way that many Bitcoin maximalists believe. Miners pile on to tokens that generate market interest. It isn't the other way around. Speculation drives market value, whether it's out-and-out gambling or people trying to get in on the ground floor of what is seen as promising technology.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
53,283
7,706
126
But higher hash-rates on a PoW consensus network, indicate a "more secure" coin, and thus, should attract more investors/investment into that coin, being more of a "secure bet". It's a two-way street. I don't think that you can say with a straight face that only "market interest" drives a coin's value, absent hash-rate numbers.
 

Space Tyrant

Member
Feb 14, 2017
149
115
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And my point is that a link to the real world won't prevent a token from zeroing out. There's just no value proposition there. PoW alone isn't enough to add value to any blockchain project. It's people willing to run nodes and serve as transaction validators that makes a decentralized blockchain work.

The notion that PoW - in particular, the amount of energy spent on PoW - adds intrinsic value...[snip]
Again, we agree on the general notion that a single factor won't save a coin. As for the 'no value proposition' to PoW, it is also only a factor. It obviously won't save the coin *on its own*.

One traditional calculation of intrinsic value, in the context of a non-earning asset, is simply the sum of the costs of production and delivery to market of the item. A PoW coin, *by definition*, has intrinsic value. Of course, this is not to be confused with, nor a guarantee of, 'market value', lol.

Anyway, if I can't convince you that PoW has meaning and value offsetting some of its 'wasted' energy, perhaps you can make a case for the PoS alternative?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
But higher hash-rates on a PoW consensus network, indicate a "more secure" coin
Not true. Higher hash rates mean no such thing. It says nothing about how many validators you have. In the case of extremely high hashrates (see: Bitcoin), it indicates consolidation. You have a less secure decentralized blockchain when "big fish" validators are able to run smaller miners off by raising difficulty. BCH is an extreme example of this phenomenon.

Anyway, if I can't convince you that PoW has meaning and value offsetting some of its 'wasted' energy, perhaps you can make a case for the PoS alternative?
There is no better case for PoS. It all boils down to whether or not you have more, or fewer, validators. PoS is potentially prone to consolidation. That being said, at least it uses quite a bit less computational power and energy per validator to maintain PoS. That is the only respect in which PoS is substantively better (or PoW substantively worse).
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
Supply/demand, 3950X can be had from B&H for the same price as a 5950X and 3900X now costs more than 5900X. Not counting eBay but the price situation isn't much different there. Anyway, supplies of Matisse are drying up and people want them for Raptoreum (or other reasons) so price is staying up.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
22,803
11,221
136
Supply/demand, 3950X can be had from B&H for the same price as a 5950X and 3900X now costs more than 5900X. Not counting eBay but the price situation isn't much different there. Anyway, supplies of Matisse are drying up and people want them for Raptoreum (or other reasons) so price is staying up.
WOW, I should dump my 3 3900x for 3 5950x
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,176
7,929
136
WOW, I should dump my 3 3900x for 3 5950x
Sure why not? Check out eBay for the current going prices. But used a 3900X seems to command at least $470 shipped over there. Cheapest 3950X I can find over there is around $640 shipped.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
53,283
7,706
126

New re-labeled coin Avian, formerly Ravencoin Lite, is mineable on BOTH CPUs and GPUs.

This may explain the recent uptick in AMD CPU prices. (5900X going from $499 back to $549.)
 
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deasd

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
349
266
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WTF... this could explain the price of Zen2 lineup going up...
I don't know the situation on Intel side, anyone enlighten me if Alderlake being a nice option when comes to mining thanks to larger L3? Now I could only foresee if situations goes on it would prevent me from having a budget Zen build...
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,425
126
I don't know... I don't think that I want to waste my time setting up a miner for coin that dropped from 8 cents to 2 cents when most crypto more than doubled this year.
 

legcramp

Golden Member
May 31, 2005
1,669
109
116
I don't know... I don't think that I want to waste my time setting up a miner for coin that dropped from 8 cents to 2 cents when most crypto more than doubled this year.
Pretty sure this coin went 13x not just doubled, it's still 4x at the current 2 cents price. Anyways, the whole point of these crap coins are just an alternative to mine using your CPU than just monero.
 
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