COVID anti-vaxxers should be denied COVID medical care

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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
8,960
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Also, no news about shortage in ICU beds? Are you kidding? From Jan 2018:

"California hospitals face a ‘war zone’ of flu patients — and are setting up tents to treat them"
Ah yes, another communicable disease that a vaccine existed for... not to mention things like handwashing, covering your cough/sneeze, and staying the fuck home when you're sick.
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
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Well to me, at least, the point of containing the pandemic is to avoid a strain on the health care system.
Thousands and thousands of fully vaccinated Americans have died already and thousands more will of Covid. This thing WILL strain it even with vaccines. We need to stop being so afraid to die and learn to live with the dangers of the universe in a rational manner.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
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Except of course if you already HAD Covid; then your chances of dying of Covid are LESS than someone who hasn't been infected but is fully vaccinated.
Guess again. Vaccines work. Who would have fucking guessed.
Who said vaccines didn't work? I certainly didn't, and for you to suggest that shows YOUR bias.
No, you just intentionally ignored the included linked article and context of his comment. You certainly DID say that being infected gives you better protection than only having been vaccinated, which he pointed out was incorrect.
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
136
Ah yes, another communicable disease that a vaccine existed for... not to mention things like handwashing, covering your cough/sneeze, and staying the fuck home when you're sick.
See how complicated the world is? Are you saying you'd mandate ANOTHER vaccine? One that is at times less than 30% effective depending on the year/strain? Would you like to make not washing your hands punishable by law?
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
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No, you just intentionally ignored the included linked article and context of his comment. You certainly DID say that being infected gives you better protection than only having been vaccinated, which he pointed out was incorrect.
Do you really want to get into a discussion about a "medical" article from Ars Technica? Do you REALLY want to attach your credibility to THAT?

There are MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE that show natural immunity to be AT LEAST as good as vaccine protection. Most European governments tend to think so. The two friends of mine who are ACTUAL doctors now believe that. The Cleveland Clinic's empirical evidence seems to suggest it...

So yeah, for somebody to believe that some article from a TECH site is PROOF that someone else is wrong, it's going to be a difficult future. There is SO MUCH bullshit from BOTH sides, we have created a dystopian nightmare.

Let me ask you: how many fully vaccinated Americans have died from Covid up till now? Serious question, because I think a LOT of people are not aware of the facts.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,083
21,203
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Thousands and thousands of fully vaccinated Americans have died already and thousands more will of Covid. This thing WILL strain it even with vaccines. We need to stop being so afraid to die and learn to live with the dangers of the universe in a rational manner.

We should, once a bunch of idiots get vaccinated thus reducing the risk on everyone else.
 
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eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
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We should, once a bunch of idiots get vaccinated thus reducing the risk on everyone else.
They will have been infected and thus naturally immune sooner rather than later. This thing is ALMOST over, unless we get a strain against which the vaccines offer NO protection and then the party starts all over. To suggest that vaccinating everyone is the only way out is disingenuous at worst, or ignorant at best.
 

weblooker2021

Senior member
Jan 18, 2021
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They will have been infected and thus naturally immune sooner rather than later. This thing is ALMOST over, unless we get a strain against which the vaccines offer NO protection and then the party starts all over. To suggest that vaccinating everyone is the only way out is disingenuous at worst, or ignorant at best.
You will see Fauci and other mainly Democrats demand public get yearly booster for the rest of their life. I suspect there will be strong suggestion that we continue wearing mask while indoor in public etc. It's just a fact that they want to continue having as much power as possible.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,083
21,203
136
They will have been infected and thus naturally immune sooner rather than later. This thing is ALMOST over, unless we get a strain against which the vaccines offer NO protection and then the party starts all over. To suggest that vaccinating everyone is the only way out is disingenuous at worst, or ignorant at best.

It is if you spout false information as you have been doing in this thread.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,117
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Thousands and thousands of fully vaccinated Americans have died already and thousands more will of Covid. This thing WILL strain it even with vaccines. We need to stop being so afraid to die and learn to live with the dangers of the universe in a rational manner.
Nothing above is rational. And no rationally done risk analysis would suggest NOT being vaccinated - even if already recovered from a previous infection.
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,120
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Do you really want to get into a discussion about a "medical" article from Ars Technica? Do you REALLY want to attach your credibility to THAT?

There are MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE that show natural immunity to be AT LEAST as good as vaccine protection. Most European governments tend to think so. The two friends of mine who are ACTUAL doctors now believe that. The Cleveland Clinic's empirical evidence seems to suggest it...

So yeah, for somebody to believe that some article from a TECH site is PROOF that someone else is wrong, it's going to be a difficult future. There is SO MUCH bullshit from BOTH sides, we have created a dystopian nightmare.

Let me ask you: how many fully vaccinated Americans have died from Covid up till now? Serious question, because I think a LOT of people are not aware of the facts.

and how many unvaccinated americans have died by comparison? because that's the only way you get natural immunity - is to get infected in the first place.

and yes, i will gladly trust a Ph.D microbiologist who does scientific reporting for arstechnica over prettymuch any other bullshit. you show me clinical data that has passed peer review and endorsed by the CDC, and i'll listen.
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
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and how many unvaccinated americans have died by comparison? because that's the only way you get natural immunity - is to get infected in the first place.

and yes, i will gladly trust a Ph.D microbiologist who does scientific reporting for arstechnica over prettymuch any other bullshit. you show me clinical data that has passed peer review and endorsed by the CDC, and i'll listen.
I asked you a simple question, but you won't answer it.

"Endorsed by the CDC" is unfortunately a problem because I believe they are for some reason hopelessly stuck trying to ratify their own prior notions. We MUST look at this on a global scale or we are at risk of falling for our own biases.

As far as your question goes: I believe, if we take the official numbers from the CDC, which are probably a little under the real number if we analyze excess deaths and such, we're at close to a million dead from Covid. I would say at this point the that's a hundred times as many as the fully vaccinated.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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I asked you a simple question, but you won't answer it.

"Endorsed by the CDC" is unfortunately a problem because I believe they are for some reason hopelessly stuck trying to ratify their own prior notions. We MUST look at this on a global scale or we are at risk of falling for our own biases.

As far as your question goes: I believe, if we take the official numbers from the CDC, which are probably a little under the real number if we analyze excess deaths and such, we're at close to a million dead from Covid. I would say at this point the that's a hundred times as many as the fully vaccinated.
You do realize that the 350k deaths were last year when there were no vaccines. And many more were this year well before the vaccines were widely available. And the vast majority of deaths this year since the vaccines have been widely available are the unvaccinated.

Throwing the numbers out as you are here is exceptionally misleading and dishonest.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
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Do you really want to get into a discussion about a "medical" article from Ars Technica? Do you REALLY want to attach your credibility to THAT?
You have NO credibility, so don't pretend the source is your point of attack. It isn't NationalReview, dumbass.
There are MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE that show natural immunity to be AT LEAST as good as vaccine protection. Most European governments tend to think so. The two friends of mine who are ACTUAL doctors now believe that. The Cleveland Clinic's empirical evidence seems to suggest it...
Citations needed, because you have no credibility, especially on anecdotal evidence. Try again, clown.
So yeah, for somebody to believe that some article from a TECH site is PROOF that someone else is wrong, it's going to be a difficult future.
There is SO MUCH bullshit from BOTH sides, we have created a dystopian nightmare.
Only YOU are spewing lies here. Link some scientifically peer-reviewed evidence, or shut the fuck up.
Let me ask you: how many fully vaccinated Americans have died from Covid up till now? Serious question, because I think a LOT of people are not aware of the facts.
How about you stop asking these pointless and idiotic questions, and link to some supporting evidence? Oh, right. You cannot, because you've got nothing but disinformation and lies to spout in here. Your "facts" are faulty, as is your brain.

Ever dishonest; another clown jumping from the tiny car as it spins in circles and goes nowhere.
 
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eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
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You have NO credibility, so don't pretend the source is your point of attack. It isn't NationalReview, dumbass.

Citations needed, because you have no credibility, especially on anecdotal evidence. Try again, clown.

Only YOU are spewing lies here. Link some scientifically peer-reviewed evidence, or shut the fuck up.

How about you stop asking these pointless and idiotic questions, and link to some supporting evidence? Oh, right. You cannot, because you've got nothing but disinformation and lies to spout in here. Your "facts" are faulty, as is your brain.

Ever dishonest; another clown jumping from the tiny car as it spins in circles and goes nowhere.
Wow, calling names? Really?

So asking how many people have died after being fully vaccinated is "pointless and idiotic"? Are you KIDDING me?

Are you disputing that natural immunity is considered as good as vaccine induced immunity in the Netherlands? Or other countries in Europe? Do I really need to show you proof?

Now as far as peer-reviewed studies go: these vaccines are SO new that the review process on most is going on right NOW. I'll link some relevant findings, which support my assertions. When the peer-review is done, we will find out, won't we?


(Edit to add quote):
"The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher. "

You guys seem to respond as if I'm against vaccines, which I'm clearly not. I just want us to be honest about their efficacy and according to the CDC we now have more than 10 thousand americans who have died of Covid after being fully vaccinated. That means MANY more infected and thus one can only conclude that expecting this to go away if only more people got vaccinated is just hogwash.
 
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eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
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Citation needed.
There are MANY articles quoting the CDC as to how many people have died after being fully vaccinated. I've been trying to find the ACTUAL current number on the CDC site but it's quite convoluted over there. I will keep trying to get the number from the horse's mouth.

In the meantime, is NPR trustworthy? In this article from October 10th it states "To date, 7,178 people are reported to have died from COVID-19 after being vaccinated "


This NBC article states, also quoting the CDC, that "Between Oct. 11 and Oct. 18, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s cumulative count for breakthrough deaths jumped by 51% from 7,178 to 10,857. "

 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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There are MANY articles quoting the CDC as to how many people have died after being fully vaccinated. I've been trying to find the ACTUAL current number on the CDC site but it's quite convoluted over there. I will keep trying to get the number from the horse's mouth.

In the meantime, is NPR trustworthy? In this article from October 10th it states "To date, 7,178 people are reported to have died from COVID-19 after being vaccinated "


This NBC article states, also quoting the CDC, that "Between Oct. 11 and Oct. 18, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s cumulative count for breakthrough deaths jumped by 51% from 7,178 to 10,857. "

So to you, less than 11,000 == thousands and thousands?
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
136
So to you, less than 11,000 == thousands and thousands?
When one says "thousands" it could mean 2 or 3 thousand; to me more than 10 thousand definitely qualifies as thousands and thousands. It doesn't to you? I didn't say tens of thousands which would be the next qualification.

In all fairness, will you admit that it's substantially more than you expected? It's no coincidence that the number is not widely discussed.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,129
30,521
136
When one says "thousands" it could mean 2 or 3 thousand; to me more than 10 thousand definitely qualifies as thousands and thousands. It doesn't to you? I didn't say tens of thousands which would be the next qualification.

In all fairness, will you admit that it's substantially more than you expected? It's no coincidence that the number is not widely discussed.
First of all, I don't think it is the real number. I tried to find it but like you could only find articles stating the number without showing the data. The CDC site doesn't expose that number on their site unless you download all the data which I don't plan to do because I don't care THAT much what the actual number is. What I do care about is the multiple order of magnitude more deaths among the unvaccinated. I'd be willing to bet that if we were able to do more thorough controlled studies it would show that many (if not most) of the breakthrough deaths were a result of other factors.

Also, regarding "thousands and thousands," while it could technically apply to as little as 4000 I see it as deliberately hyperbolic for a 6000-10000 range.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
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There are MANY articles quoting the CDC as to how many people have died after being fully vaccinated. I've been trying to find the ACTUAL current number on the CDC site but it's quite convoluted over there. I will keep trying to get the number from the horse's mouth.

In the meantime, is NPR trustworthy? In this article from October 10th it states "To date, 7,178 people are reported to have died from COVID-19 after being vaccinated "


This NBC article states, also quoting the CDC, that "Between Oct. 11 and Oct. 18, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s cumulative count for breakthrough deaths jumped by 51% from 7,178 to 10,857. "


NPR and NBC are both trustworthy. They're using data from reliable sources; it's just that even the most reliable sources will have to adjust their figures over time (particularly if there's any late reporting or methodology improvements), and journalists can only go with what's available at the time they publish.

Direct data is the best when possible, but part of good critical thinking involves knowing when (and how much) you can trust reporting. Both NPR and NBC are reasonably neutral, and are citing a trusted official source happy to explain its methods; there's no good reason to believe they're dishonest.
 

eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
304
136
First of all, I don't think it is the real number. I tried to find it but like you could only find articles stating the number without showing the data. The CDC site doesn't expose that number on their site unless you download all the data which I don't plan to do because I don't care THAT much what the actual number is. What I do care about is the multiple order of magnitude more deaths among the unvaccinated. I'd be willing to bet that if we were able to do more thorough controlled studies it would show that many (if not most) of the breakthrough deaths were a result of other factors.

Also, regarding "thousands and thousands," while it could technically apply to as little as 4000 I see it as deliberately hyperbolic for a 6000-10000 range.
So you don't WANT to know the real number? You don't believe this one? Your "deliberately hyperbolic" insinuation is ridiculous. I did not want to put in a precise number because it changes anyway every day, and again I believe my term was perfectly appropriate because 20k or more would become tens of thousands in the English I've learned. You just don't like it, that much is clear.

Of course MANY more died being un-vaccinated, but the number is still important because we know they number of infected persons in any particular group is WAY higher than the number of deaths. That means that MANY fully vaccinated people are still carrying the virus, and we now know that with Delta on they are likely to be just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

Now, you're right about how difficult it is to find this info on the CDC website. It's NOT an accident in my opinion. Unlike you though, I WILL take the time to dig it up, because I want to live in REALITY.
 
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eikelbijter

Senior member
Aug 27, 2009
534
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NPR and NBC are both trustworthy. They're using data from reliable sources; it's just that even the most reliable sources will have to adjust their figures over time (particularly if there's any late reporting or methodology improvements), and journalists can only go with what's available at the time they publish.

Direct data is the best when possible, but part of good critical thinking involves knowing when (and how much) you can trust reporting. Both NPR and NBC are reasonably neutral, and are citing a trusted official source happy to explain its methods; there's no good reason to believe they're dishonest.
Thank you I couldn't have said it any better. I'm trying to find this data on the CDC website but it works like it was designed by a 12 year old.
 

weblooker2021

Senior member
Jan 18, 2021
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So you don't WANT to know the real number? You don't believe this one? Your "deliberately hyperbolic" insinuation is ridiculous. I did not want to put in a precise number because it changes anyway every day, and again I believe my term was perfectly appropriate because 20k or more would become tens of thousands in the English I've learned. You just don't like it, that much is clear.

Of course MANY more died being un-vaccinated, but the number is still important because we know they number of infected persons in any particular group is WAY higher than the number of deaths. That means that MANY fully vaccinated people are still carrying the virus, and we now know that with Delta on they are likely to be just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

Now, you're right about how difficult it is to find this info on the CDC website. It's NOT an accident in my opinion. Unlike you though, I WILL take the time to dig it up, because I want to live in REALITY.
Correct me if i am wrong but CDC stopped tracking any positive cases unless person is hospitalized if they are vaccinated. Have that changed since they announced that?