Courts rule agianst RIM Blackberry

[Stunt]

I haven't really followed this story, but I figured being a tech forum we may get some good opinions on the subject. I am familiar with the RIM line-up like the Blackberry and how well received it has been on the market.

That being said, the US judge has just ruled against the Canadian company which could cause an end to sales of the units in the US.

Not to turn this in a patriotic US vs. Canada debate, what is your take on the RIM case?

source

 

[Harvey]

It's a patent issue. Courts are there for to deal with disputes that the parties can't resolve.

As a holder of two U.S. patents and several copyrights, I support inventors' rights. According to the article, the merits of their case have already been resolved, Assuming patent holder, NTP Inc., is right, and their patent is upheld, they have every right to profit from the eploitation of their technology and to control how it is used within the limits of the patent laws and international patent treaties.

"Valid patents would be rendered meaningless if an infringing party were allowed to circumvent the patents' enforcement by incessantly delaying and prolonging court proceedings, which have already resulted in a finding of infringement," Spencer said in his ruling from Richmond, Va.

There is no valid argument regarding disruption of service to Blackberry customers. It may cause some problems, but that's RIM's doing, not the patent holder's.

 

[sandorski]

I thought there was some kind of deal made in this case? Some kind of cash payment for past useage of the Patent.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I'm in favor of inventors' rights, but not the patent office's willingness to grant patents to vague ideas and obvious, non-novel inventions.

Amazon should never have been granted One-Click for example.

"Submarine patents" and over-broad application of patents are also issues as in Unisys / LZW and id vs. Creative (applying a sound rendering algorithm to image rendering).

4 of the 11 patents have been provisionally invalidated so far, if there is a reasonable chance of invalidating or limiting the application of the others I can see how it would be reasonable to allow RIM to continue to operate without interference, or to at most require them to put a certain amount of funds and/or company stock into escrow.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
I'm in favor of inventors' rights, but not the patent office's willingness to grant patents to vague ideas and obvious, non-novel inventions.

Amazon should never have been granted One-Click for example.

"Submarine patents" and over-broad application of patents are also issues as in Unisys / LZW and id vs. Creative (applying a sound rendering algorithm to image rendering).

4 of the 11 patents have been provisionally invalidated so far, if there is a reasonable chance of invalidating or limiting the application of the others I can see how it would be reasonable to allow RIM to continue to operate without interference, or to at most require them to put a certain amount of funds and/or company stock into escrow.

Ya, I wonder about that as it does seem there have been numerous recent Patents for rather vague concepts. I recall a Patent for Hyperlinking of all things and reports that BT(British Telecom IIRC) was seeking payment for infringement from numerous sources. It seems that certain things are being Patented that shouldn't be or they should maybe have a different Class of Patent that only offers limited Protections. Seems to me that Patents should extend beyond actual Physical Devices as anyone can conceive an Idea at any time, but may never actually persue the Idea beyond thinking it.

Tough call though, don't wanna see people's legitimate discoveries/designs getting ripped off, but at the sametime don't wanna see people ripping off others for developing innovative products.

 

[Martin]

The problem is that all of the patents are likely to be invalid:

"The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has now issued initial rulings in the reexaminations of all eight NTP patents relating to the NTP vs. RIM litigation and has rejected 100 percent of the 1,921 claims contained in those patents, including the 16 claims asserted against RIM," RIM said.

http://www.wirelessweek.com/article/CA6262051.html
However, the judge wants to move quickly and doesn't wish to wait for this reexamination to end.

So will sales stop? NTP employs only lawyers and produces nothing but paperwork - they have nothing to gain by stopping BB sales, so they are likely to use this to extort us for more money (analysits are now expecting NTP to demand $1B vs the previous $450m). But consider that Jim B has said publicly many times that RIM has a solution to work around the patents.

In any case, I trust the execs to make the right decision, they've done well with the company so far...

 

[Lanyap]

Originally posted by: Harvey
It's a patent issue. Courts are there for to deal with disputes that the parties can't resolve.

As a holder of two U.S. patents and several copyrights, I support inventors' rights. According to the article, the merits of their case have already been resolved, Assuming patent holder, NTP Inc., is right, and their patent is upheld, they have every right to profit from the eploitation of their technology and to control how it is used within the limits of the patent laws and international patent treaties.

"Valid patents would be rendered meaningless if an infringing party were allowed to circumvent the patents' enforcement by incessantly delaying and prolonging court proceedings, which have already resulted in a finding of infringement," Spencer said in his ruling from Richmond, Va.

There is no valid argument regarding disruption of service to Blackberry customers. It may cause some problems, but that's RIM's doing, not the patent holder's.

Actually, there is a valid argument. I understand the problems that an immediate disruption will cause. Many companies and service providers have integrated Blackberrys into their support infrastructure for immediate multi-interactive communications. The large telco that I work for uses Blackberrys for interactive paging for critical purposes. Hospitals and other Blackberry customers also use them for critical purposes. If these types of services are immediately disrupted it could cause loss of critical public services and even loss of life. It's not the Blackberry customer's fault if RIM screwed up with patent. Customers should be given a reasonable amount of time to implement a replacement solution. I believe the courts will decide to allow a transition rather than immediate disruption.

I agree with you on your other comments.

 

[dmcowen674]

All non-Government Blackberry services will be shut off.

1-23-06 High Court Won't Hear BlackBerry Appeal

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Monday refused to hear an appeal from the maker of the BlackBerry in the long-running battle over patents for the wildly popular, handheld wireless e-mail device.

 

[3chordcharlie]

From everything I've seen and read, this is a completely bogus case, and a strong indicatin of how F'd up patent laws are right now.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
All non-Government Blackberry services will be shut off.

1-23-06 High Court Won't Hear BlackBerry Appeal

I'm sure that'll happen in Lalaland, but in the real world what will happen is one of these:

1) The Patent Office will invalidate NTP's patents (so far, all preminary rulings have been against NTP, including for patents not in the court dispute; final ruling is expected in Feb.)
2) RIM will pay a huge amount of money to settle.
3) RIM will implement the workaround they've been touting.

 

[Genx87]

Isnt this the case where the initial settlement was to be 20 million and RIM kept fighting it and the damages kept increasing by double to the point where it is nearly 1 billion?

I am sure some junior lawyer who helped formulate the initial decision to not settle for 20 million has been put out to pasture.
That could be one of the worst litigation decisions I have heard about in forever lmao.

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention. But it appears the case is pretty solid as it has been held up over and over.

I think RIM is about to take it square in the cheeks and considering they are stealing technology from another firm they deserve it. Plus I just hate those stupid devices!

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Isnt this the case where the initial settlement was to be 20 million and RIM kept fighting it and the damages kept increasing by double to the point where it is nearly 1 billion?

I am sure some junior lawyer who helped formulate the initial decision to not settle for 20 million has been put out to pasture.
That could be one of the worst litigation decisions I have heard about in forever lmao.

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention. But it appears the case is pretty solid as it has been held up over and over.

I think RIM is about to take it square in the cheeks and considering they are stealing technology from another firm they deserve it. Plus I just hate those stupid devices!

I'm not sure about the initial settlement, but RIM reached a huge settlement deal with NTP to make the whole thing go away, then NTP backed out; this was all in the middle of a barrage of 'invalid' findings on NTP's patents, and seemed to me like the worst time for NTP to back out of a payoff.

It actually makes me wonder if a RIM competitor is bankrolling NTP's legal fight, hoping that if they can get RIM shut down (even if it's only a day, or a week) they will pick up a huge windfall in new customers.

Given that NTP hasn't won a technology-based decision in this case yet, I find it 'suspicious' that RIM hasn't been able to get some reasonable action in terms of injunctions and the like.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: Genx87
As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention. But it appears the case is pretty solid as it has been held up over and over.

I think RIM is about to take it square in the cheeks and considering they are stealing technology from another firm they deserve it. Plus I just hate those stupid devices!

Apparently you missed the part where the patents the court victories are besed on are being invalidated one-by-one and the US PTO has filed a brief in favor of RIM.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Isnt this the case where the initial settlement was to be 20 million and RIM kept fighting it and the damages kept increasing by double to the point where it is nearly 1 billion?

I am sure some junior lawyer who helped formulate the initial decision to not settle for 20 million has been put out to pasture.
That could be one of the worst litigation decisions I have heard about in forever lmao.

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention. But it appears the case is pretty solid as it has been held up over and over.

I think RIM is about to take it square in the cheeks and considering they are stealing technology from another firm they deserve it. Plus I just hate those stupid devices!

Are you and Dave in a competition to see who can come up with the stupidest ******?

1. When NTP asked 20mil, RIM was still a tiny company and 20 mil was a lot of money. Not only that, but NTP asked for outrageous royalties (several times the industry average IIRC).

2. The decision comes from the very top. Contrary to popular opinion RIM isn't against IP - a company of 3000 produced 300+ patents in '04 and believe me, IP is very much loved. Nor is RIM against licensing IP, they do it all the time (for example, check the "about" screen under options).

3. No, it seems you have been paying no attention whatsoever, as demonstrated by your cluelessness.

4. You think RIM stole NTP's "tech"? For god's sake get a ****** clue.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Isnt this the case where the initial settlement was to be 20 million and RIM kept fighting it and the damages kept increasing by double to the point where it is nearly 1 billion?

I am sure some junior lawyer who helped formulate the initial decision to not settle for 20 million has been put out to pasture.
That could be one of the worst litigation decisions I have heard about in forever lmao.

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention. But it appears the case is pretty solid as it has been held up over and over.

I think RIM is about to take it square in the cheeks and considering they are stealing technology from another firm they deserve it. Plus I just hate those stupid devices!

Are you and Dave in a competition to see who can come up with the stupidest ******?

1. When NTP asked 20mil, RIM was still a tiny company and 20 mil was a lot of money. Not only that, but NTP asked for outrageous royalties (several times the industry average IIRC).

2. The decision comes from the very top. Contrary to popular opinion RIM isn't against IP - a company of 3000 produced 300+ patents in '04 and believe me, IP is very much loved. Nor is RIM against licensing IP, they do it all the time (for example, check the "about" screen under options).

3. No, it seems you have been paying no attention whatsoever, as demonstrated by your cluelessness.

4. You think RIM stole NTP's "tech"? For god's sake get a ****** clue.

Hey brainiac

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention.

Who said the above quote?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Genx87

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention.

Who said the above quote?

In a nutshell - NTP's patents have not held up to review.

If they had, the case is cut and dried; so it's not surprising that some findings have gone in favour of NTP.

However, in light of the complete lack of success NTP has had defending the validity ofits patents, it's rather shocking that RIM has been unable to get temporary protection from NTP trying to have them shut down.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Hey brainiac

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention.

Who said the above quote?

Its not that you haven't been paying "much" attention, its that you've been paying no attention whatsoever. If you know you are clueless on a particular subject, refrain from posting as if you know what you're talking about, or don't get mad when people point out your cluelessness.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Hey brainiac

As for the case itself, I havent really been paying to much attention.

Who said the above quote?

Its not that you haven't been paying "much" attention, its that you've been paying no attention whatsoever. If you know you are clueless on a particular subject, refrain from posting as if you know what you're talking about, or don't get mad when people point out your cluelessness.

Who sounds mad in their postings? The person writing explitives or the person who pointed out the disclaimer?