Yeah I get bruises on my head too, but I don't get enormous ones and when I get bruises my eye usually doesn't look sluggish. I also don't have a case worker whose job is to ensure the safety of my children. I also don't refuse court orders delivered by sheriffs.
Yeah I get bruises on my head too, but I don't get enormous ones and when I get bruises my eye usually doesn't look sluggish. I also don't have a case worker whose job is to ensure the safety of my children. I also don't refuse court orders delivered by sheriffs.
MmmSkyscraper
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2004
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UNCjigga
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2000
- 24,744
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What do you think the appropriate gov't sanctioned response to this situation SHOULD be?
A) Send a board-certified doctor with the CPS caseworkers for an in-home evaluation.
B) Have a judge issue a warrant and send a SWAT team to "extract" the child and rush him to a trauma center.
I can't imagine how Option A isn't only cheaper, but also faster than Option B. If CPS were really concerned with the child's welfare (and by now we all know that CPS #1 priority is to cover their ass and justify their budget, which they also fail to do) they would have requested a doctor to the home for evaluation rather than wait for a judge. Almost 99.99% of CPS agencies have mental health professionals on staff--I can't imagine they wouldn't have pediatricians on staff as well?
MmmSkyscraper
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2004
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A would be preferable if they could guarantee themselves entrance into his home. Before B came about, they sent a sheriff with a court order and the guy refused. So they did at least try something cheaper than SWAT. If they went with a doctor and the guy refused, that would be fairly wasteful too. They'd need to go with whatever manpower was necessary to ensure entrance into the guy's home.
But if that's the state policy on how they do things (make the guy go to a doctor, not bring the doctor to him) then they did nothing wrong at any step, except maybe use a bit too much manpower.
No, you should take your kid to a doctor when a sheriff shows up at your house with a court order requiring you to take the kid to a doctor. Then you don't get SWAT on your ass.
MmmSkyscraper
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: waggy
plus i have his lawnmower captive.
Operation pwnzor waggy is a go!
/me puts on balaclava
Probably the same thing that made them decide to send a case worker to his place. I doubt it was arbitrary.
Medical training is invalid to render a valid medical opinion. Right.
Vietnam wasn't THAT long ago, and I doubt the nature of bruises has changed so significantly in the last few years to make a huge difference. The "real" doctor prescribed Tylenol (OMG liver damage!), fluids, and ice. Do you think his diagnosis was any different? Chances are the father has seen MORE serious injury than the "real" doctor, so it's not like he has no standard of comparison. Or that he was reaching for the horse dung and leeches.
So the court didn't use excessive force, because if the father had complied they wouldn't have had to use excessive force? You can't set arbitrarily high penalties for defying court orders. Sure, the father shouldn't have totally defied the court order, dumb as it was. But the next step in the progression for a non-violent, zero-flight-risk "offender" is NOT the SWAT team. The sheriff himself should have been able to take care of this one! "Sir, I'm afraid I'm going to have to put you into arrest and take your child into custody. He'll be released after the doctor has examined him." Was that so hard?
Instead, they send a SWAT team to bust down the doors and traumatize the kid. To the house of a Vietnam vet, no less. Can you imagine how badly this could have gone?
*breaking glass*
Vet: "OH SHIT THE VCs ARE COMING BACK!" <goes for AR15, flashbacks of carnage in the jungle flitting through his head>
SWAT: "He's got a gun, FIRE!"
Vet: "You'll never take me alive commie bastards!" *BLAM BLAM BLAM* *RATTATTATTATTATT...*
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
- 12,632
- 0
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Looks like it was another disgraceful play by the strong arm of Children Services Division.
What makes you think he does? The story says caseworkers "were sent", not that "their" caeworker reported that.... They'll send caseworkers for a bullshit neighbor complaint...and thats where my money is.
*Bullshit Complaint from neighbor
*Caseworker makes wrong assessment based on pre-existing bias from working with scumbags all day
*Veteran appropriately tells them to kiss his ass, apparently can assesss injuries to strangers on the battlefield, but not his own children at home
*Tells the idiot sherriff the same
*Swat team sent
*Father vindicated by medical staff/eye witnessess at Trailer Park
*Family tramatized for no good reason
10 weeks of medical training does not come close to being what I would consider a valid medical opinion. That would be about enough to let you change bedpans at hospitals.
It doesn't matter what the real diagnosis was... the guy is not a licensed doctor, and is not even close to being one by a wide margin.
Your point about more serious makes no sense to me. First off, an ER doctor sees a lot of head injuries. A vietnam medic sees a lot of gunshot wounds and other combat injuries. That's assuming that the guy actually saw any action in vietnam as a medic.
Secondly, if you see people's bodies severed all the time then go to treat a head wound, don't you think that would make you likely to take it LESS seriously than you should?
Originally posted by: rbV5
What makes you think he does? The story says caseworkers "were sent", not that "their" caeworker reported that.... They'll send caseworkers for a bullshit neighbor complaint...and thats where my money is.
*Bullshit Complaint from neighbor
*Caseworker makes wrong assessment based on pre-existing bias from working with scumbags all day
*Veteran appropriately tells them to kiss his ass, apparently can assesss injuries to strangers on the battlefield, but not his own children at home
*Tells the idiot sherriff the same
*Swat team sent
*Father vindicated by medical staff/eye witnessess at Trailer Park
*Family tramatized for no good reason
There's where the problem is. The sheriff had a court order. The guy refused to obey. It's his fault it escalated to a SWAT team. They could probably arrest him for that. Sounds like they are being lenient.
Complaint from neighbor and a case worker shows up? That's not how things work around here... maybe in colorado. Usually if a neighbor reports an injured child, you'd send police. If that was in fact the first time he'd ever seen the social worker and for some unknown reason invited the guy or gal in to take a look at his place, then maybe I'd have sympathy for him, if he hadn't refused a court order delivered by sheriffs.
Go ahead, but don't act like a victim when they bring SWAT in to your home because you refuse to comply with court orders.
- Aug 24, 2001
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Obviously, the state workers didn't have a valid medical opinion. What are their qualifications where they get to use the power of the state in such a manner?
But, he obviously has a better grasp on his son's medical condition than the state workers.
America! Where book learning >>>>>>>>>>>> practical experience!
You know, in some areas of the world, the nurses have no medical training at all. They learn everything on the job. Is this a better way of doing things? No. But to claim that having some formal training, and a bunch of experience, is somehow worthless compared to a guy with more formal training...that's just moronic. What's more, claiming that this guy's opinion is worth even less than the case worker, who had NO formal training and NO experience...that's, if possible, even dumber.
As for "not a licensed doctor", millions--billions!--of parents around the world make medical decisions for their children. Particularly in minor cases, like when they bump their head a little. *Could* they have cerebral edema or some other complication? If all evidence points to "no", which it obviously did in this case, there is no reason to think that.
Parents also make financial, educational, disciplinary, and other decisions...without even having advanced degrees in all those subjects! I know that this is shocking news. Need me to get you your heart pills?
Sending in the SWAT team is NOT THE NEXT STAGE IN THE PROGRESSION!
If the cops tell you to get out of your car, and you say "no", are they OK to shoot you? Is it your fault for refusing to comply? No. They are right to escalate the situation, but NOT right to go straight to the highest level of escalation. There is a progression which is set in place for these situations. The sheriff could have just arrested the dad, not called the SWAT team.
Say what? Doctors learn on the job for most of their education. They don't sit in rooms with books then suddenly get to hang around in hospitals and perform surgeries by themselves. They spend literally thousands of hours at clinics and hospitals.
The case worker has no training, which is why they got a court order to have the injury examined. If you are a case worker and you are visiting the guy's house to check on the welfare of his children, then you see an enormous bruise and a seemingly messed up eye, are you just going to believe him if he tells you he was a medic in vietnam and knows it's ok, and the kid just fell?
All evidence apparently did not point to no. The kid's eye was seemingly affected.
Maybe it wasn't, but forcefully removing the child was the next stage of progression. Either way the kid would be removed by force by a number of officers.
I have one big question:
Torpid, what kind of medical background do YOU have that gives any credibility, whatsoever, to your *opinion* that medical equipment and advanced training was necessary?
btw, what equipment is this that you speak of? Are you implying that every time a child bumps their head, they should have a CT scan? Are you one of the parents who, after insisting to the doctor to do a CT scan (and they will, just to cover their own butts), that "well, maybe the CT scan missed something. Do an MRI!"
Other than a CT (and in some cases, an MRI, PET scan, or transcranial dopler study to measure cerebral blood flow.), the only other "specialized equipment" is a <*> flashlight.
If the child has no signs and symptoms of any tramatic brain or head injury, there's no sense in ordering a head CT. If it was more than 24 hours after the accident, you would know if there was something wrong - there'd be signs of a brain injury if there was one.
(My RN is standing behind me, telling me what happens. Although she qualifies this with "I'm not a pediatric nurse.") From Medical-Surgical Nursing (5th ed): For the patient with concussion and contusion, observation and management of increased <if present> ICP are the pripary management strategies"
ICP: increased cranial pressure
Clinical manifestations of ICP: (and will differ for different parts of the brain)
(Note: holy cow, my wife has a lot of stuff highlighted in her book)
<*>Note: I wanted to use a particular word to go for alliteration, but resisted the urge.
So, Mr. I'm not a medical expert, but I'm still going to tell people what kind of medical care they need anyway,
What I'm reading seems to contradict what you think is necessary.
"My son just puked!" Think that takes a lot of special training to recognize? Something that *you'd* forget how to recognize after 10 years?
Think its hard to recognize when your own child starts stumbling around, has a droopy eye or droopy side of the mouth, drops things from a weak grip, complains of a headache, seems feverish, complains of dizziness, ringing in the ears, (do I need to go on?)
Do you think that every time a child bumps their head or gets a bruise, they should go to the ER? No wonder the cost of medical insurance is going up so much! You're talking about $1000 in costs, or more, just so the doctor can say "well, put some ice on it and take some tylenol. Bring him back in if his symptoms change."
Read that last line again. You essentially pay (or your insurance company does) $1000 or more, simply for some reassurance from the Dr that, yes, kids fall down and get bruises. If it's serious, his symptoms are going to change from what he's now exhibiting (and in this particular case, his symptoms weren't exactly life-threatening.) And, in that case, then bring him back in.
Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't take my own kid to the ER under these circumstances, but then again, my health insurance covers most of the costs, and since my wife is a nurse there, the hospital writes off the rest of the costs (i.e. I don't pay a dime to go to the ER.) However, if I had to pay $1000 (or more) well just for that little bit of reassurance and common sense (take some tylenol, put ice on it, call if there are changes) advice, I probably wouldn't.
edit: I am not a doctor, but at least I backed up my opinion; something you haven't done in the dozen or so posts you've had in this thread. In the end, it sounds very much like the combat veteran was right. I'll personally ask for a real doctor's opinion on this one.
edit edit: It's amazing that just a couple weeks ago, there was a thread about whether the court should have ordered that a child get a kidney transplant which had a chance of saving the kid's life.
Torpid, what kind of medical background do YOU have that gives any credibility, whatsoever, to your *opinion* that medical equipment and advanced training was necessary?
btw, what equipment is this that you speak of? Are you implying that every time a child bumps their head, they should have a CT scan? Are you one of the parents who, after insisting to the doctor to do a CT scan (and they will, just to cover their own butts), that "well, maybe the CT scan missed something. Do an MRI!"
Other than a CT (and in some cases, an MRI, PET scan, or transcranial dopler study to measure cerebral blood flow.), the only other "specialized equipment" is a <*> flashlight.
If the child has no signs and symptoms of any tramatic brain or head injury, there's no sense in ordering a head CT. If it was more than 24 hours after the accident, you would know if there was something wrong - there'd be signs of a brain injury if there was one.
(My RN is standing behind me, telling me what happens. Although she qualifies this with "I'm not a pediatric nurse.") From Medical-Surgical Nursing (5th ed): For the patient with concussion and contusion, observation and management of increased <if present> ICP are the pripary management strategies"
ICP: increased cranial pressure
Clinical manifestations of ICP: (and will differ for different parts of the brain)
- Change in level of consciousness
ocular signs
temperature may go up
decrease in motor functions
headache
vomitting
(Note: holy cow, my wife has a lot of stuff highlighted in her book)
<*>Note: I wanted to use a particular word to go for alliteration, but resisted the urge.
So, Mr. I'm not a medical expert, but I'm still going to tell people what kind of medical care they need anyway,
What I'm reading seems to contradict what you think is necessary.
"My son just puked!" Think that takes a lot of special training to recognize? Something that *you'd* forget how to recognize after 10 years?
Think its hard to recognize when your own child starts stumbling around, has a droopy eye or droopy side of the mouth, drops things from a weak grip, complains of a headache, seems feverish, complains of dizziness, ringing in the ears, (do I need to go on?)
Do you think that every time a child bumps their head or gets a bruise, they should go to the ER? No wonder the cost of medical insurance is going up so much! You're talking about $1000 in costs, or more, just so the doctor can say "well, put some ice on it and take some tylenol. Bring him back in if his symptoms change."
Read that last line again. You essentially pay (or your insurance company does) $1000 or more, simply for some reassurance from the Dr that, yes, kids fall down and get bruises. If it's serious, his symptoms are going to change from what he's now exhibiting (and in this particular case, his symptoms weren't exactly life-threatening.) And, in that case, then bring him back in.
Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't take my own kid to the ER under these circumstances, but then again, my health insurance covers most of the costs, and since my wife is a nurse there, the hospital writes off the rest of the costs (i.e. I don't pay a dime to go to the ER.) However, if I had to pay $1000 (or more) well just for that little bit of reassurance and common sense (take some tylenol, put ice on it, call if there are changes) advice, I probably wouldn't.
edit: I am not a doctor, but at least I backed up my opinion; something you haven't done in the dozen or so posts you've had in this thread. In the end, it sounds very much like the combat veteran was right. I'll personally ask for a real doctor's opinion on this one.
edit edit: It's amazing that just a couple weeks ago, there was a thread about whether the court should have ordered that a child get a kidney transplant which had a chance of saving the kid's life.
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