Countries going after a harbored terrorist

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can a country kill a person for terrorist acts in a harboring country?

  • Yes, I'm generally in agreement with allowing this

  • No, I'm generally opposed to allowing this

  • Might makes right - right for more powerful militaries, wrong for countries with weaker militaries

  • Mixed agreement, some of what was described (explain)

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Hayabusa Rider's avatar is my favorite on AT. Discuss. :twisted:

j/k *ducks and blocks Craig234's incoming strike*

My fellow posters, I can announce this afternoon that an operation has been launched that has removed davmat, the derailer of this thread.

AT moderators were not informed of this operation prior to its completion, because they may have warned him or interfered with its completion.

I understand no one can object to this, because there are no rules for when to do it.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
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In lieu of any rules, can you offer any better defense for the Carriles situation where we're harboring a terrorist, than 'he committed terrorism for our side so it's ok'?

1) I did not give any defense for anybody or anything.
2) I know nothing about the guy, the situation, or anything else, so I have no comments to make regarding it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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1) I did not give any defense for anybody or anything.
2) I know nothing about the guy, the situation, or anything else, so I have no comments to make regarding it.

Links were provided.

But is interesting to compare the level of interest in bin Laden with the 'our country is also harboring terrorists? I don't care, no I WON'T spend 5 minutes to read up on it' response to that issue.

And we condemn the people of Pakistan for not aggressively going after bin Laden.

Like I said, it seems informative to better understand the situation, to compare these.
 
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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
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So, you can't find any rules to apply in general, it's all totally based on everything made up from nothing for each situation, and complete inconsistency is fine?

Are there any differences between your complete lack of rules, and a 'might makes right' policy whereby any power that does anything can justify it on that basis?

So, when the USSR assassinated Georgi Markov in London at the request of Bulgaria, for defecting and criticizing Bulgaria as a BBC journalist, that's ok?

That's the one where the KGB had a poison-tipped umbrella used to poke him in the leg on the street, a mystery confirming who did it for decades.

You didn't say 'suspected of violent crimes' is even a requirement, you had no rules.

I think you are reading too much into what I said. All I am saying is that each case that might warrant considering action is too complicated for many reasons to make a blanket decision on how going after a harbored terrorist is handled. The country in question alone is way too much of a variable for me, that is all. Breaching a country's sovereignty is too severe an issue to me to have a generalized stance. Is that inconsistent? Or is it keeping all your options open, realizing a future situation might warrant such actions depending on the individual and country in question?
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
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You targeting me for any particular reason?

Your question obviously shows you expecting me to have a particular opinion, and you are already attacking me over it.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Context matters.

Factors:
Stability/nature of host nation
Evidence against target
Value of target (level of criminality)
Acceptance level from other nations
Potential damage if alternative outcome is pursued
and I'm sure several others...
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
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I'm probably wrong, but my first impression was that Craig234 is trying to get some sort of agreement so he can then say: "a hah! So using your logic you would not have a problem if Iraqi's came and got George Bush! You said so right here!"

:)
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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I'm probably wrong, but my first impression was that Craig234 is trying to get some sort of agreement so he can then say: "a hah! So using your logic you would not have a problem if Iraqi's came and got George Bush! You said so right here!"

:)

Perhaps. I also believe he might think the US was wrong to conduct the recent OBL mission. I could be wrong... maybe he'll be brave and answer a simple yes/no.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I'm probably wrong, but my first impression was that Craig234 is trying to get some sort of agreement so he can then say: "a hah! So using your logic you would not have a problem if Iraqi's came and got George Bush! You said so right here!"

:)

No, whatever you think of Bush, the issues are different enough, and my questions are not about his situation, so that that's not where it's headed.

It's headed where I posted the update - to the examples of the two terrorists we harbored, not heads of state. And to help illustrate some things.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Kudos to Craig for waiting a whole day before posting his inevitable "America is evil, Cuba/Venezuela is good" thread. Admirable self-restraint.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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A danger is, the US used to repeatedly target foreign leaders for assassination not for 'declaring war on the US', but for selfish reasons - they won't do as we tell them.

The exposure of these long abuses of power came in the Church hearings in the mid-70's, after which Reagan for good reason signed an order against assassination.

Well that's an argument for sufficient oversight and well defined limits on how it can be used, which I definitely think we sometimes don't do a good enough job with. But abuse isn't inherent in the capability, I'd argue, just inherent in a poorly managed system with no oversight.
It's not just the act - it corrupts the politics of a country where the mere threat can force leaders to betray their countries out of the concern for the US killing them.

If it means they think through committing acts of war against the US a bit more carefully, then that seems like a GOOD result to me. Each nation should be completely free to engage in whatever kind of acts they want on the world stage, but it seems unreasonable for them to demand a lack of consequences. And as far as deterrence goes, dropping a smart bomb on some tin pot dictator seems a lot better than killing thousands of his people who probably have no more wish to be fighting us than we do to be fighting them.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Well that's an argument for sufficient oversight and well defined limits on how it can be used, which I definitely think we sometimes don't do a good enough job with. But abuse isn't inherent in the capability, I'd argue, just inherent in a poorly managed system with no oversight.

What process could possibly prevent abuse, given our constitutional design?

From the creation of the CIA when its first operational assignment was the terribly inappropriate response to British Oil's request to do something about Iran wanting more money for oil by overthrowing their government and installing a reluctant dictator, giving him a brutal security force which harm to this day, through Reagan sponsoring terrorist armies and such and much more, we've had 'oversight' - and it doesn't work.

A president doesn't get much more 'trying to do right' in policy than JFK, and yet he participated in an illegal invasion attempt and attempts to assassinate (his CIA likely involved in the assassination of the UN Secretary, likely without his knowledge IMO I needn't list examples for president after president.)

Oversight doesn't prevent these things - but I'm not saying it's worthless, it has benefits and can reduce abuse - but it's not enough.

If it means they think through committing acts of war against the US a bit more carefully, then that seems like a GOOD result to me.

It's not like you to be that silly. This isn't about that. We have a military that deters aggression, you don't need to assassinate for that.

Assassination is something that deters something far different than 'committing acts of war against the US'.

Look at the history in the last century. The most common pattern of our going after a leader was his refusal to put US corporations ahead of his people's interests.

Read 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man' for examples. Read Smedley Butler's summary of his decades in the Marine Corps on missions for corporations.

I mentioned the removal of the leader of Iran for cheaper oil. Look at Chile - for daring to stop allowing a US corporation to hugely exploit it by taking its copper, its number 1 industry, out of the country for a very small payment. Take a look at our coup against Hugo Chavez, for refusing to allow US corporations to have too much in their economy (there are various complaints about him but that was the trigger IMO). Look at Aristide in Haiti, look at so many Latin American countries who stood up for the poor.

I could go on, but the point is how assassination not only fits abuse far better than the benevolent use you mention - bin Laden was not deterred by the treat of assassination which did exist, either - but it encourages the abuse of power, silently dominating the relations with leader after leader not against aggression, but for economic abuse.

LBJ had a good quote on this as he learned what was happening - 'we've been running a damn murder, inc.'

Each nation should be completely free to engage in whatever kind of acts they want on the world stage, but it seems unreasonable for them to demand a lack of consequences. And as far as deterrence goes, dropping a smart bomb on some tin pot dictator seems a lot better than killing thousands of his people who probably have no more wish to be fighting us than we do to be fighting them.

Just as torture always tries to justify itself with the ticking bomb scenario that isn't what actually happens and, if allowed, becomes abusive - ask Israel, whose high court approved very narrow circumstances and couldn't prevent them from turning into widespread abuse far outside the rules - you can just assassination with some benevolent scenario about how it prevents a broader war.

And that is tempting, when you see the horrible cost of an evil leader (never one of ours, of course).

But open the door, and you have a lot of unintended consequences.

It's like the argument with a libertarian about all the fantasies he has about big corporations will behave nicely in the system and there are these wonderful remedies like lawsuits, oblivious and naive about the disaster the policies would cause, forgetting 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Since Reagan's order - continued by each President - we aren't doing so much assassinating and terrorist armies in Latin America and such.

It's not hard to fall back to that, with a President Bush, Trump, Palin, Giuliani with these options back in place.

We're enough of an empire already, without the use of assassination to further force foreign leaders to do our bidding outside any legitimate pressure.

I'm not convinced the abuses are outweighed by the benefits, and not convinced by cherry picked scenarios that the abuses won't happen.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Good thing for us then, that OBL was not a head of state.

I do not think Pakistan's involvement has warranted acts of war against them. I'm tired of our troops being over there in the first place, much less expanding their mission to nuclear countries.

On principle any country committing acts of war against us, through terrorism or not, is a perfectly valid target based on our own discretion and its value to us. September 11th was an act of war. In this case we retaliated against Afghanistan for their involvement in harboring and supporting the terrorists who committed that act of war. This is a clear cut case, to me, of us exercising that 'right'.

Yes Craig, might makes right. If we were not strong enough to do this, or the opponent strong enough to deter us, then things would be quite different.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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There are a million factors that play into it, but in general I think for the most part most countries would hand over a real terrorist. If they don't, I'm fine with using "other methods" to take him down.

Carriles and Bosch have not been found guilty of anything (that I know of) in any *real* court. Venezuela and Cuba and other third world dives and their legal systems do not count. If a court in a real country had a real case against someone and found them guilty of terrorism, and the acts they were found guilty of were also against US law (ie, no "terrorist because someone drew a cartoon" or something stupid like that), then I'd say extradite them. Otherwise, tell them to go pound sand.

There's certainly an element of "might makes right" to it, one of the benefits of spending a gajillion dollars a year on the military.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Yes Craig, might makes right. If we were not strong enough to do this, or the opponent strong enough to deter us, then things would be quite different.

You have the question backwards. If a country doesn't have the might to do something, it can't do it.

That's not the question. The question is, is what's the right thing for a situation based on might, that what's wrong for one country is ok for another only because they can?

Can we harbor terrorists, but not less powerful countries, only based on might?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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What's with the sudden moral absolutism Craig? As people have said here, it is context dependent. The magnitude of the crime and persuasiveness of the evidence both directly impact the moral question you pose. There are also pragmatic considerations, such as the ability to pull it off (might), but that, as you say, is a separate issue. As for the morality, yes it is situational. You aren't going to get a set of bright line rules. What bright line rules do you propose?

You seem to be suggesting that there is a double standard here whereby it is posited, implicitly, that might makes right and therefore whatever the USA does is fine. Doubtless that hypocrisy exists. Doubtless the argument is also over-made by the left, who often employ imperfect analogies to make this particular point, and overlook the broad sweep of time, changing leadership, and anything positive which may have been done to offset the negatives. Might makes right is indeed a common hypocrisy of the right, but might makes wrong is a common fallacy of the left in the arena of foreign affairs.

- wolf
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Good posts by Rainsford and Wolfe9999.

I read the link provided for Carriles and my head exploded. I'd like him deported but since he worked for the CIA we may not be able to do that. If he blew up an airplane, and it was proven, I wouldn't be upset if that country assassinated him while he was here.

I'd be mightily annoyed with our governement if they were so incompetent as to allow as squad on helicopters to do it, but not at all if a lone assassin snuck in and did it.

Fern
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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What's with the sudden moral absolutism Craig?

Nothing new here.

As people have said here, it is context dependent. The magnitude of the crime and persuasiveness of the evidence both directly impact the moral question you pose. There are also pragmatic considerations, such as the ability to pull it off (might), but that, as you say, is a separate issue. As for the morality, yes it is situational. You aren't going to get a set of bright line rules. What bright line rules do you propose?

And you have specific examples here, with plenty of info, to comment on, but you didn't.

You seem to be suggesting that there is a double standard here whereby it is posited, implicitly, that might makes right and therefore whatever the USA does is fine. Doubtless that hypocrisy exists. Doubtless the argument is also over-made by the left, who often employ imperfect analogies to make this particular point, and overlook the broad sweep of time, changing leadership, and anything positive which may have been done to offset the negatives. Might makes right is indeed a common hypocrisy of the right, but might makes wrong is a common fallacy of the left in the arena of foreign affairs.

- wolf

You are making broad generalizations about 'the left' instead of commenting about the topic of the thread.

It's as if I asked you if you think OJ is guilty and you lecture on trial coverage.

Yes, some on the left are sometimes guilty of what you say. You don't say a word about whether that's an issue in THIS thread.

If it's not, your post is quite off-topic - which is ok if it's a side comment and the thread topic is discussed, but it wasn't.

For the examples in this thread, both bin Laden and the others have long histories of many terrorist attacks, well proven, with many casualties, bombs and planes. So the 'context' sounds comparable.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Pakistan's complaining that the raid on OBL's compound was unauthorized is just so much bullshit (political posturing). It's well known that there are many in Pakistan's intelligence community who are sympathetic to Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It would have been an absolute blunder to give Pakistan any hint of plans to attack the compound. OBL was the master terrorist, the kingpin of the world's foremost terrorist network. Barack Obama's statements in the past made it clear that he would take out OBL any way he could and directly if the opportunity developed. He certainly came through. Terrorists, particularly international terrorists, should not enjoy the protections that other people might be entitled to. Not when they are mass murderers in hiding.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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I don't think this is a poll/question that can be answered ahead of time. The crimes involved, country in question, context, trade partner status, etc are all too important to make a generalized answer to an interesting question. It really is a case by case basis. If for example OBL was found in Moscow or Riyadh, the operation would have been much different.

Sorry if that last sentence is a captain obvious, but there are simply too many variables IMO.

This. OBL fuck yes everytime anywhere. Someone running from Felony DWI to Angola, probably not.

Also wartime means something. Warriors job is to kill people/hostiles not be police officers. That's why they bumped it up and call it war.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Pakistan should now conduct a surgical strike to kill Salman Rushdie.

Apparently they are so incompetent that they didn't even know OBL was living in a giant compound half a mile from the military station right in front of them. I doubt they can conduct anything more "surgical" than starting a campfire. Fools.