Could the 'eye' and other complex organs have evolved from random mutation?

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everything is evolved from random mutation.

Study the bio first. I won't say i'm absolutely in depth, but I have a realllly hard time seeing how things just "happened"...especially when we talk about how the heck the first protein evolved to replicate DNA (Which codes for proteins....to make proteins).

I think its best to study science through evolution because we learn more and more, but I'm not so sure everything evolved from it.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,785
514
126
Everything comes from something. The trees, the water which makes up most of this earth, the algae (early life forms) and other things came from somewhere. Somehow, they magically formed here on earth. Something intelligent must have interfered or "planned" this earth. He or she must have put the starts where they belonged (in the sky), the land where it belonged, the waters and so on. If everything was random, would things would be as orderly as they are today, especially when it comes to nature?

Yes, things changed over time and volcanoes erupted and changed landscapes, and glaciers moved rocks from one area to the other. Humans have evolved by adapting and killing off other humans. But that progress originated from somewhere.

But some things remain the same. See no evil, hear no evil etc. True progress only occurs when you keep your mind open. Your original plans often times leads you off the track and better things come out of it as a result.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
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This might fit better in Off Topic so if a mod happens upon it, it would be cool if it could be moved there; I'm just used to posting in PN
 

oynaz

Platinum Member
May 14, 2003
2,448
2
81
The old Darwin vs. ID argument. Please read up on the evolution theory before making fools of yourselves.
Darwin could not understand how eyes evolved, but modern updates to the theory explans them perfectly well.

Start here. You will learn something, for instance the phenomenon known as reduction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_evolution
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Everything comes from something. The trees, the water which makes up most of this earth, the algae (early life forms) and other things came from somewhere. Somehow, they magically formed here on earth. Something intelligent must have interfered or "planned" this earth. He or she must have put the starts where they belonged (in the sky), the land where it belonged, the waters and so on. If everything was random, would things would be as orderly as they are today, especially when it comes to nature?

There is absolutely no evidence supporting this, never has been. What exactly makes you believe this? Christianity? Do you truely believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or do you take it as a metaphor?

Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everything is evolved from random mutation.

Study the bio first. I won't say i'm absolutely in depth, but I have a realllly hard time seeing how things just "happened"...especially when we talk about how the heck the first protein evolved to replicate DNA (Which codes for proteins....to make proteins).

I think its best to study science through evolution because we learn more and more, but I'm not so sure everything evolved from it.

I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Its defiantely possible. Here's an example of a more simple eye from a marine flat worm species, and even an example proving the simplest form of eye doesn't even need to be its own dedicated cell in order to work.

Compared to vertebrates, the organization of polyclad eyes is quite simple. This type of eye, which lacks any lens, has been described as "pigment cup ocellus". Ocelli are part of the cerebral eyespot and are composed of several photosensitive cells and a concave cup. The walls of the cup contain pigments prohibiting light penetration from three sites. The light sensitive portions of the cells, microvilli, are arranged inside the opaque cup such a way that they can only be exposed by light from one single direction. Depending on the angle of incoming light, shadows fall onto the photosensitive structures. Since the cup can be actively rotated by muscles a quickly changing shadow pattern is generated. Corresponding excitatory nervous signals are sent to the cerebral ganglion where the information is analyzed and used for threedimensional orientation and appropriate behavioral reactions.
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~bu6/Introduction02.html

What you will find are euglenids ? small single-celled organisms with several interesting features: a flexible cell covering; green chloroplasts inside the cell that harvest light to produce the euglenid?s food; a whip-like flagellum that propels the cell around, and a bright red structure called an "eyespot".

The euglenid eyespot is part of a fascinating system. The red eyespot is actually a pigment-filled shield that lies next to the base of the flagellum. Although the exact mechanism is not known, the eyespot appears to work in concert with the flagellum, allowing the euglenid to move in response to light, and to find optimal light conditions for photosynthesis. In other words, the eyespot (and parts of the flagellum) are a very primitive type of eye that evolved in ancient single-cell organisms ? the ancestors of living euglenids.
http://ebiomedia.com/gall/eyes/primitive.html
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Its defiantely possible. Here's an example of a more simple eye from a marine flat worm species, and even an example proving the simplest form of eye doesn't even need to be its own dedicated cell in order to work.

Compared to vertebrates, the organization of polyclad eyes is quite simple. This type of eye, which lacks any lens, has been described as "pigment cup ocellus". Ocelli are part of the cerebral eyespot and are composed of several photosensitive cells and a concave cup. The walls of the cup contain pigments prohibiting light penetration from three sites. The light sensitive portions of the cells, microvilli, are arranged inside the opaque cup such a way that they can only be exposed by light from one single direction. Depending on the angle of incoming light, shadows fall onto the photosensitive structures. Since the cup can be actively rotated by muscles a quickly changing shadow pattern is generated. Corresponding excitatory nervous signals are sent to the cerebral ganglion where the information is analyzed and used for threedimensional orientation and appropriate behavioral reactions.
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~bu6/Introduction02.html

What you will find are euglenids ? small single-celled organisms with several interesting features: a flexible cell covering; green chloroplasts inside the cell that harvest light to produce the euglenid?s food; a whip-like flagellum that propels the cell around, and a bright red structure called an "eyespot".

The euglenid eyespot is part of a fascinating system. The red eyespot is actually a pigment-filled shield that lies next to the base of the flagellum. Although the exact mechanism is not known, the eyespot appears to work in concert with the flagellum, allowing the euglenid to move in response to light, and to find optimal light conditions for photosynthesis. In other words, the eyespot (and parts of the flagellum) are a very primitive type of eye that evolved in ancient single-cell organisms ? the ancestors of living euglenids.
http://ebiomedia.com/gall/eyes/primitive.html

Wow, that 2nd part quote is amazing. Something that resembles an eye in a single cell...thats crazy.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,785
514
126
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: raildogg
Everything comes from something. The trees, the water which makes up most of this earth, the algae (early life forms) and other things came from somewhere. Somehow, they magically formed here on earth. Something intelligent must have interfered or "planned" this earth. He or she must have put the starts where they belonged (in the sky), the land where it belonged, the waters and so on. If everything was random, would things would be as orderly as they are today, especially when it comes to nature?

There is absolutely no evidence supporting this, never has been. What exactly makes you believe this? Christianity? Do you truely believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or do you take it as a metaphor?

Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everything is evolved from random mutation.

Study the bio first. I won't say i'm absolutely in depth, but I have a realllly hard time seeing how things just "happened"...especially when we talk about how the heck the first protein evolved to replicate DNA (Which codes for proteins....to make proteins).

I think its best to study science through evolution because we learn more and more, but I'm not so sure everything evolved from it.

I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?

No, I don't believe in creationism. I do believe in a higher authority. There is no proof yet according to people who believe in no higher authority, although people who do believe in one will tell you otherwise. Science will one day evolve where they look at things from a spiritual and maybe religious point of view, where they work with spirituality and religion to better mankind. Science will open its mind and treat religion and spirituality as a tool to explain certain things. One day this will happen. Noone is denying the connection between apes and DNA. I also don't dismiss dinosaurs. I also don't dismiss the fact that all the continents used to be connected. Evolution is not the absolute truth and the same goes for creationism. We need some entity to look at things from a new, objective point of view.

How do you also explain that things in nature are cyclical? To our knowledge, they have been this way since the earliest days.

More and more scientists are looking at the spiritual (not religious) world to find answers. Whether this is for scientific purposes, medical purposes or anything else. Keep an open mind about everything and usually you will find accurate information.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
its easy to see evolution occur in small leaps in the type of time frame human minds easily comprehend. For example bacteria evolve resistance to drugs, to the point where they actually have specialized protiens in their cell walls that detect and pump out certain drugs. Now this is a complicated protien we are talking about with no purpose except to fight drugs, chemicals that 30 years ago didn't even exist, so obviously we are talking evolution here. The problem comes in expanding the small changes that can happen in a few years out to hundreds of millions of years. Peopls minds just find such lengths of time hard to grasp. And therefore it hard to understand how a very comlicated thing like an eye (obviously much more ocmplicated than a single protein) can develop.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: raildogg
Everything comes from something. The trees, the water which makes up most of this earth, the algae (early life forms) and other things came from somewhere. Somehow, they magically formed here on earth. Something intelligent must have interfered or "planned" this earth. He or she must have put the starts where they belonged (in the sky), the land where it belonged, the waters and so on. If everything was random, would things would be as orderly as they are today, especially when it comes to nature?

There is absolutely no evidence supporting this, never has been. What exactly makes you believe this? Christianity? Do you truely believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or do you take it as a metaphor?

Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everything is evolved from random mutation.

Study the bio first. I won't say i'm absolutely in depth, but I have a realllly hard time seeing how things just "happened"...especially when we talk about how the heck the first protein evolved to replicate DNA (Which codes for proteins....to make proteins).

I think its best to study science through evolution because we learn more and more, but I'm not so sure everything evolved from it.

I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?

No, I don't believe in creationism. I do believe in a higher authority. There is no proof yet according to people who believe in no higher authority, although people who do believe in one will tell you otherwise. Science will one day evolve where they look at things from a spiritual and maybe religious point of view, where they work with spirituality and religion to better mankind. Science will open its mind and treat religion and spirituality as a tool to explain certain things. One day this will happen. Noone is denying the connection between apes and DNA. I also don't dismiss dinosaurs. I also don't dismiss the fact that all the continents used to be connected. Evolution is not the absolute truth and the same goes for creationism. We need some entity to look at things from a new, objective point of view.

How do you also explain that things in nature are cyclical? To our knowledge, they have been this way since the earliest days.

More and more scientists are looking at the spiritual (not religious) world to find answers. Whether this is for scientific purposes, medical purposes or anything else. Keep an open mind about everything and usually you will find accurate information.

What's the difference between creationism and a higher authority? I'm curious about your beliefs...Nice post btw.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
also, somewhat tangential to this discussion is exactly how some people can deny that evolution exists at all. Evolution is not just some untested theory, you can litterally see it happen before your eyes, and it is used for everyday application in the real world.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?
Do you have evidence supporting another method for the beginning of life? If so, you can probably catch a plane to Sweden for the next Nobel Prize distribution and snag one right off the podium.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: ntdz
I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?
Do you have evidence supporting another method for the beginning of life? If so, you can probably catch a plane to Sweden for the next Nobel Prize distribution and snag one right off the podium.

Nope, but then again I don't go making up theories about how life began and support it with no evidence (ie Religion).
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: BrownTown
also, somewhat tangential to this discussion is exactly how some people can deny that evolution exists at all. Evolution is not just some untested theory, you can litterally see it happen before your eyes, and it is used for everyday application in the real world.
The problem here, as in most debates on this forum, is the all-or-nothing approach assumed by many, particularly those championing evolution. They assume that intelligent design is equivalent to creationism and in no way allows for the existence of evolution. This is generally untrue of intelligent design theory, though this seems to be the root of misunderstanding.
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Incidentally the eye aint that special - it has been invented by nature several times with different approaches.
Besides evolution doesnt work like this: random mutation - plopp an eye appears.
Mutations happen all the time, harmful ones die out useful ones or mutations that dont change much might be passed on and spread if they provide a better survivability or higher mating chance.

But whyt am I talking about I am mechanical engineer and no biologist.


edit: and evolution is a very very slow process - after all it took some 3.5 billion years and a few cataclysmic events that each time killed a good portion of all species, until man appeared
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Nope, but then again I don't go making up theories about how life began and support it with no evidence (ie Religion).
But you support a theory that has equally little evidence regarding how life begins. You've simply directed your faith in a different direction.
 

nocash

Senior member
Sep 25, 2000
230
0
0
Imagine many primitive multicell organisms that was blind and only way to get food was to bump into it. then 1 gets a mutation of 1 cell that is light sensitive. That 1 mutation caused that organism to move outa the way if something is gonna bump into it thus survives. Now this organism becomes very successful and can breed this mutation too its offspring. Now there is millions of them that have this mutation, and is more even playing field. Now one of these mutate with 2 cells now they can tell what direction the threat is coming from ect.. millions of years pass and the gradiual improvements leads to more complex eyes. I dont see how this concept is hard to comprehend. Its not like one day a fish is born with complex eyes outa nowhere.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,785
514
126
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: raildogg
Everything comes from something. The trees, the water which makes up most of this earth, the algae (early life forms) and other things came from somewhere. Somehow, they magically formed here on earth. Something intelligent must have interfered or "planned" this earth. He or she must have put the starts where they belonged (in the sky), the land where it belonged, the waters and so on. If everything was random, would things would be as orderly as they are today, especially when it comes to nature?

There is absolutely no evidence supporting this, never has been. What exactly makes you believe this? Christianity? Do you truely believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or do you take it as a metaphor?

Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everything is evolved from random mutation.

Study the bio first. I won't say i'm absolutely in depth, but I have a realllly hard time seeing how things just "happened"...especially when we talk about how the heck the first protein evolved to replicate DNA (Which codes for proteins....to make proteins).

I think its best to study science through evolution because we learn more and more, but I'm not so sure everything evolved from it.

I have a really hard time believing some supernatural creature created us when there is no evidence supporting this, not to mention it doesn't make any sense or answer any questions. Evolution is the best theory we have. How do you explain that we have something like 99% of the same DNA as Apes? Is that by design of the "designer" too?

No, I don't believe in creationism. I do believe in a higher authority. There is no proof yet according to people who believe in no higher authority, although people who do believe in one will tell you otherwise. Science will one day evolve where they look at things from a spiritual and maybe religious point of view, where they work with spirituality and religion to better mankind. Science will open its mind and treat religion and spirituality as a tool to explain certain things. One day this will happen. Noone is denying the connection between apes and DNA. I also don't dismiss dinosaurs. I also don't dismiss the fact that all the continents used to be connected. Evolution is not the absolute truth and the same goes for creationism. We need some entity to look at things from a new, objective point of view.

How do you also explain that things in nature are cyclical? To our knowledge, they have been this way since the earliest days.

More and more scientists are looking at the spiritual (not religious) world to find answers. Whether this is for scientific purposes, medical purposes or anything else. Keep an open mind about everything and usually you will find accurate information.

What's the difference between creationism and a higher authority? I'm curious about your beliefs...Nice post btw.

The people who take creationism literally are hurting their cause by ruling out the scientific studies done in the recent centuries. I want religion and science to look at things from an objective viewpoint. Both sides have worked against each other rather than working with each other. This is possible. We are not at that stage yet, but we will get there. There are flaws in creationism and evolution.

One day there will be a new study done that combines the best of scientific, religious and spiritual elements.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: nocash
Imagine many primitive multicell organisms that was blind and only way to get food was to bump into it. then 1 gets a mutation of 1 cell that is light sensitive. That 1 mutation caused that organism to move outa the way if something is gonna bump into it thus survives. Now this organism becomes very successful and can breed this mutation too its offspring. Now there is millions of them that have this mutation, and is more even playing field. Now one of these mutate with 2 cells now they can tell what direction the threat is coming from ect.. millions of years pass and the gradiual improvements leads to more complex eyes. I dont see how this concept is hard to comprehend. Its not like one day a fish is born with complex eyes outa nowhere.
That sounds great, until you realize that the way the eye works is very different in humans from rhesus monkeys and/or chimps. My research would be much easier if this weren't the case... Now I have to use human eyes instead of monkey eyes. :(

edit: No, I'm not saying that this wasn't caused by evolution, just whining about the difficulties of research. :p
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: ntdz
Nope, but then again I don't go making up theories about how life began and support it with no evidence (ie Religion).
But you support a theory that has equally little evidence regarding how life begins. You've simply directed your faith in a different direction.

I don't rely on evolution to explain how life began (and evolution isn't a theory that tries to explain how life began)...it merely explains how things got the way they are after life began. Evolution is an undeniable scientific theory, you can look in a microsope and watch it happen...
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: nocash
Imagine many primitive multicell organisms that was blind and only way to get food was to bump into it. then 1 gets a mutation of 1 cell that is light sensitive. That 1 mutation caused that organism to move outa the way if something is gonna bump into it thus survives. Now this organism becomes very successful and can breed this mutation too its offspring. Now there is millions of them that have this mutation, and is more even playing field. Now one of these mutate with 2 cells now they can tell what direction the threat is coming from ect.. millions of years pass and the gradiual improvements leads to more complex eyes. I dont see how this concept is hard to comprehend. Its not like one day a fish is born with complex eyes outa nowhere.
That sounds great, until you realize that the way the eye works is very different in humans from rhesus monkeys and/or chimps. My research would be much easier if this weren't the case... Now I have to use human eyes instead of monkey eyes. :(

edit: No, I'm not saying that this wasn't caused by evolution, just whining about the difficulties of research. :p


I thaught you are an aero-space engineer - now building rockets with monkey eyes?