Could Chavez lose Venezuela?

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
A Chavez loss could cost oilpatch skilled workers
CALGARY - Energy-rich Alberta is preparing to pick a new Tory leader to replace Ralph Klein, but for an important part of the province's oil community the key leadership contest to watch is unfolding elsewhere, in Venezuela.

Some polls in the country point to a stunning erosion of support for strongman Hugo Chavez, putting opposition candidate Manuel Rosales within reach of winning the Dec. 3 election.

Many remain skeptical that Mr. Chavez, a socialist allied to Cuba's Fidel Castro and a fierce critic of George W. Bush, can be ousted.

But if Mr. Rosales takes the helm, labour-tight Alberta stands to lose at least some of the hundreds of skilled oil workers who left Venezuela for jobs in Calgary, Edmonton and Fort McMurray after being fired in 2002 by Mr. Chavez from Petroleos de Venezuela SA, the national oil company, for opposing government interference.

The close presidential race "is on everybody's lips" among Venezuelans in Alberta, said Pedro Pereira Almao, a former heavy oil research leader with PDVSA who is now co-director of the University of Calgary's Alberta Ingenuity Centre for In Situ Energy.

Mr. Pereira Almao is not planning to return, but some will if there is a change in government, he predicted.

"Many of us have the 'mal du pays,'" he said. "Everybody loves to be near family."

A Rosales-led government would "improve significantly" the climate for oil investment in Venezuela, Enrique Sira, leader of Cambridge Energy Research Associates's Andean Energy Advisory Service, said from Caracas yesterday.

"He is more pro-progress, and whoever wants to invest and develop and grow production, I am sure will be looked upon in a much more favourable way, regardless where companies come from."

Support for Mr. Rosales, the former governor of the oil-rich state of Zulia, has grown in recent weeks as he dares Venezuelans to oppose Mr. Chavez. His campaign slogan: "Risk it."

With the country's previously fractured opposition now unified behind him, the 54-year-old former farmer is gaining momentum among the country's poor, previously Mr. Chavez's stronghold, for proposing a state-issued debit card called Mi Negra that would allow them to draw money from the country's oil revenue.

The Mi Negra proposal has been particularly well-received as Venezuelans grow angry with Mr. Chavez for spending Venezuelan's oil revenue abroad, from Cuba to Ecuador and Argentina, to buy influence.

"In the last six weeks, Rosales had three marches, and the last one was in Caracas and drew half a million people," said one observer, who asked to remain anonymous. "Chavez, his rhetoric has gone from [U.S. President George] Bush-bashing to, in the last 10 days, bashing Rosales as a puppet of Bush. A change in rhetoric shows Chavez is under pressure. His rally, they had to rent buses and pull public workers into it to make it look good."

There are concerns the election could turn violent if Mr. Chavez uses intimidation to discourage opposition supporters.

Mr. Chavez fired 22,000 PDVSA employees, or 70% of the company's workforce, for participating in strikes four years ago. The oil workers, many of them highly educated abroad, were then black-listed and prevented from taking jobs with any other oil company in the country.

Mr. Pereira Almao said he wouldn't return to PDVSA, even if Mr. Rosales is elected, because it's no longer the company he knew.

Many jobs have been filled by political appointees and he expects the transition back to a market-based culture to be drawn out and difficult.

In addition to tightening the government's grip on PDVSA, the government's main source of revenue, Mr. Chavez passed hydrocarbon laws that increased taxes and royalties on extra heavy oil to the point overall costs are now higher than in Canada, Mr. Sira said.

"We do not believe that in the future, this new fiscal framework will be conducive to new grassroots development," he said.
I hadn't been keeping up, but it's an interesting race that I'll be keeping tabs on from now on. If it's actually possible for Chavez to lose considering the control he's got on the nation's legal, electoral and policing institutions, Canada's oil patch could see a major outflow of skilled workers. If Chavez's political appointees exit with him, that is.
 

Horus

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2003
2,838
1
0
Well, that just means more unskilled Canadian labourers making 80K per year working on the Tarfields :)
 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,440
24
81
Geez, you don't honestly think Hugo Chavez is ever going to voluntarily give up his position, do you? I fully expect foul play during any election in which he's opposed, including tons of fake ballots and possibly even violence against anyone opposing him. I doubt he'll ever give up his position, as he'd like to be another Fidel Castro in latin america! :(
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Poll: Chavez has big lead before Venezuela vote
Survey finds that many government opponents worry about reprisals

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15875324/

sounds like a lot of them would vote anti -chavez just to get him off the TV.

But to do so may cost you your Govt job or worse.

The poll showed 57 percent of respondents were at least somewhat concerned that people could face reprisals for how they vote ? 79 percent of Rosales supporters and 46 percent of Chavez supporters.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
"Some polls" and "stunning erosion of support" for Chavez....

Reminds me of the rightwing pundits talking about a repub "surge", right before the ass-whupping...

Basic whistling in the dark- Chavez will win handily.

And, uhh, "reprisals" for the way one votes? Did they do away with the secret ballot in Venezuela, or are we being treated to more fearmongering agitprop?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Venezuela's Chavez has big lead for Dec 3 vote: poll

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has 60 percent support from likely voters ahead of a December 3 election, outstripping his rival Manuel Rosales by 29 points, a poll said on Friday.

Sounds like another landslide. And of course plenty of sour grapes up north from the now neutered right-wing of US
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,504
6,046
126
Let Democracy prevail! There will be International Observers. I suspect the election will be fair and if it isn't we'll know. Whoever wins, wins. As it should be.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
yeah that story I linked to is from a right wing power house.
Msnbc:laugh:



Anyone as ate up as you with far right bs would see this I assume, but MSNBC is just another part of big corporate interest media-opoly owned and brought to you by our friends, and big military contractors: general electric.

Try turning your tube off for a couple of years and watch any of american TV and you can see the bias and message that surrounds almost every part of our culture.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
yeah that story I linked to is from a right wing power house.
Msnbc:laugh:



Anyone as ate up as you with far right bs would see this I assume, but MSNBC is just another part of big corporate interest media-opoly owned and brought to you by our friends, and big military contractors: general electric.

Try turning your tube off for a couple of years and watch any of american TV and you can see the bias and message that surrounds almost every part of our culture.

did you say something? I wasn't listening.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49

did you say something? I wasn't listening.

It's ok, that's par for the course with you.

sorry, but you have to start with some connection to reality to have a discussion, and msnbc is about as anti-right as is out there except maybe bankrupt air america who no one cares about.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49

did you say something? I wasn't listening.

It's ok, that's par for the course with you.

sorry, but you have to start with some connection to reality to have a discussion, and msnbc is about as anti-right as is out there except maybe bankrupt air america who no one cares about.

Thing is your perception is so whacked out you wouldn't even know what left leaning is.

It's statements like yours here that show such naievity and why the right lost so bad. You bought into your own medias BS and started to actually believe it.

It is not so much of a media monopoly left-right thing as a pro-corporate view, and the government is owned nowadays by corporations. And you buy right into it.

About time to take all those corporate stations off the air, let the public fund media instead of big business.

Another example of the failure of capitalism and why socialism is rising across the world.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49

did you say something? I wasn't listening.

It's ok, that's par for the course with you.

sorry, but you have to start with some connection to reality to have a discussion, and msnbc is about as anti-right as is out there except maybe bankrupt air america who no one cares about.

Thing is your perception is so whacked out you wouldn't even know what left leaning is.
And yours is so objective??

It's statements like yours here that show such naievity and why the right lost so bad. You bought into your own medias BS and started to actually believe it.
It wasn't half as bad as when dems lost the last 12 years, it was no mandate. it was a throw the bums out and try some other bums..pure and simple.

It is not so much of a media monopoly left-right thing as a pro-corporate view, and the government is owned nowadays by corporations. And you buy right into it.
I would agree to some need for lobby reform. Can you agree to anything?
About time to take all those corporate stations off the air, let the public fund media instead of big business.
Yeppers lets ban everyone from the airways who doesn't hold your point of view.
Another example of the failure of capitalism and why socialism is rising across the world.
That tired view has been debated many times already.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49

did you say something? I wasn't listening.

It's ok, that's par for the course with you.

sorry, but you have to start with some connection to reality to have a discussion, and msnbc is about as anti-right as is out there except maybe bankrupt air america who no one cares about.

Thing is your perception is so whacked out you wouldn't even know what left leaning is.
And yours is so objective??

It's statements like yours here that show such naievity and why the right lost so bad. You bought into your own medias BS and started to actually believe it.
It wasn't half as bad as when dems lost the last 12 years, it was no mandate. it was a throw the bums out and try some other bums..pure and simple.

It is not so much of a media monopoly left-right thing as a pro-corporate view, and the government is owned nowadays by corporations. And you buy right into it.
I would agree to some need for lobby reform. Can you agree to anything?
About time to take all those corporate stations off the air, let the public fund media instead of big business.
Yeppers lets ban everyone from the airways who doesn't hold your point of view.
Another example of the failure of capitalism and why socialism is rising across the world.
That tired view has been debated many times already.


It has nothing to do with banning anyones pov, it has to do with getting monied interests off the air who feed us crap and pretend to "inform" us, it is not any way to have a open democracy being used and lied to, and all of them should go or they should be taken back from their parent corporations so we can enjoy a real independent media.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49

did you say something? I wasn't listening.

It's ok, that's par for the course with you.

sorry, but you have to start with some connection to reality to have a discussion, and msnbc is about as anti-right as is out there except maybe bankrupt air america who no one cares about.

Thing is your perception is so whacked out you wouldn't even know what left leaning is.
And yours is so objective??

It's statements like yours here that show such naievity and why the right lost so bad. You bought into your own medias BS and started to actually believe it.
It wasn't half as bad as when dems lost the last 12 years, it was no mandate. it was a throw the bums out and try some other bums..pure and simple.

It is not so much of a media monopoly left-right thing as a pro-corporate view, and the government is owned nowadays by corporations. And you buy right into it.
I would agree to some need for lobby reform. Can you agree to anything?
About time to take all those corporate stations off the air, let the public fund media instead of big business.
Yeppers lets ban everyone from the airways who doesn't hold your point of view.
Another example of the failure of capitalism and why socialism is rising across the world.
That tired view has been debated many times already.


It has nothing to do with banning anyones pov, it has to do with getting monied interests off the air who feed us crap and pretend to "inform" us, it is not any way to have a open democracy being used and lied to, and all of them should go or they should be taken back from their parent corporations so we can enjoy a real independent media.

we are hijacking thread so will not respond any more.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061126/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_election_3

Massive rally backs Chavez opponent

By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER, Associated Press Writer 48 minutes ago

CARACAS, Venezuela - Hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans packed a major highway Saturday in a rally for opposition presidential candidate Manuel Rosales, one of the largest demonstrations against President Hugo Chavez in years.

Shouts of "Dare to change!" rose up from the dense crowd filling the highway for several miles and spilling into nearby overpasses and streets in Venezuela's capital, Caracas. The rally came eight days before the country's presidential election on Dec. 3.

Rosales, speaking from a stage, promised democracy for a country he said was sinking into Cuba-style authoritarianism under Chavez.

"I don't want to be a president who controls all the branches of government," Rosales shouted to thundering applause. "Let there be true democracy in Venezuela!"

He denounced the government for prohibiting television crews from using helicopters to film the march, saying, "They don't want the people to see this multitude."

"They are scared," he shouted, pumping his fists. "We are going to win on Dec. 3."

The crowd appeared to number in the hundreds of thousands. Organizers claimed more than 1 million people attended.

Rosales, the governor of the oil-rich western state of Zulia who favors a free-market economy over Chavez's brand of socialism, trailed the Venezuelan president by a wide margin in an AP-Ipsos poll conducted earlier this month.

However, his candidacy has managed to galvanize Venezuela's fractured opposition, reviving a movement that had struggled to recover from a crushing defeat in a 2004 recall referendum against Chavez.

Rosales said the vast crowd on Saturday was proof he would defeat Chavez.

"It's Caracas in the streets," he said. "A great avalanche of votes!"

Marchers departed from various points in the city of 5 million and converged on the Francisco Fajardo Highway, where they danced to Venezuelan folk music booming from loudspeakers and chanted anti-Chavez slogans.

"After seeing this, nobody should have any doubts about Rosales' chances," 43-year-old accountant Franklin Salas said.

More than 3,000 police were deployed along the march route to prevent clashes with Chavez supporters who gathered on several street corners, shouting "Viva Chavez!" as marchers passed. There were no reports of violence.

Despite the revived opposition movement, Chavez remains hugely popular among the poor, especially those who see benefits from oil-funded social programs ranging from free health care to heavily subsidized government grocery stores.

Rosales lashed out at Chavez for wanting to be "president all his life, until he dies like
Fidel Castro ? indefinite re-election."

"This country doesn't want that. It wants modernity," he said.

Chavez, first elected in 1998, has said he wants to continue governing Venezuela until 2021 or longer. He said he plans to ask Venezuelans in a referendum if they support changing the constitution to allow indefinite re-election. It currently allows two consecutive presidential terms.

Rosales accused the Chavez administration of having no respect for private property and giving away the country's oil wealth to leftist allies overseas while neglecting the poor at home. He said Chavez wants "a new rich and more poor people ... an elite that runs everything."

Rosales, who temporarily stepped down as Zulia governor to run for president, is one of the few opposition politicians to hold on to office as Chavez's allies have gained control of the National Assembly, state offices and the courts.

Rosales accused the Chavez government of imprisoning people for political reasons and said he would free them if elected. The government says Venezuela has no political prisoners, only people legitimately convicted of crimes.

Ernesto Galindez, a 58-year-old butcher who backs Chavez, said he was surprised by the size of Saturday's march, but predicted Rosales would lose.

"They are going to have to wait six more years because Chavez is still very strong, and he's not going anywhere," said Galindez, grinning.

Looks like El Presidente para vida Chavez would lose if he didn't have the population so afraid of reprisals. He has already ordered troops to fire on unarmed protesters, in 2002, so they know he won't be afraid to do that again.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Vic

Looks like El Presidente para vida Chavez would lose if he didn't have the population so afraid of reprisals. He has already ordered troops to fire on unarmed protesters, in 2002, so they know he won't be afraid to do that again.

"Protesters" lol, you mean during a coup that was trying to overthrow a legally elected government, yeah, what government wouldn't have to? You are so full of it.
Educate yourself on the US oil interest and washington based coup.

A good documentry about Chavez without the Pat Robertson / corporate US media bias Chavez - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Vic

Looks like El Presidente para vida Chavez would lose if he didn't have the population so afraid of reprisals. He has already ordered troops to fire on unarmed protesters, in 2002, so they know he won't be afraid to do that again.

"Protesters" lol, you mean during a coup that was trying to overthrow a legally elected government, yeah, what government wouldn't have to? You are so full of it.
Educate yourself on the US oil interest and washington based coup.

A good documentry about Chavez without the Pat Robertson / corporate US media bias Chavez - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

One thing I give to socialists is their ability to completely turn a blind eye when one of theirs has their hand caught in the cookie jar.

Isnt it interesting the head of the venezuelan army Lucas Rincon Romero who announced Chavez resigned and appointed his replacement in the middle of this coup is now head of Chavez's interior ministry? Boy for aiding a coup he sure got some nice perks. In other words it was your standard scapegoat fearmonger power grab. See Hitlers Reichstag Fire Decree for reference.

Anybody who honestly believes this election will be clean and fair are living in a utopian dream world.

And lets not forget before Chavez became a champion of Democracy while dining with Castro he decided he was going to cast his own vote in 1992 with his own coup

Hugo casting his own vote

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,810
6,518
126
Could Chavez lose Venezuela?

I doubt it. It's a large country and can be found on world maps.

I do think Bush could lose the United States, though, if he had to find his way home alone from Venezuela.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Huge Caracas rally for Chavez rival before vote
...The crowd appeared to number in the hundreds of thousands. Organizers claimed more than 1 million people attended...
Text


And Genx87 I don't think steeple thinks being like fidel is a bad thing , so the comparison probably won't help?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,504
6,046
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Vic

Looks like El Presidente para vida Chavez would lose if he didn't have the population so afraid of reprisals. He has already ordered troops to fire on unarmed protesters, in 2002, so they know he won't be afraid to do that again.

"Protesters" lol, you mean during a coup that was trying to overthrow a legally elected government, yeah, what government wouldn't have to? You are so full of it.
Educate yourself on the US oil interest and washington based coup.

A good documentry about Chavez without the Pat Robertson / corporate US media bias Chavez - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

One thing I give to socialists is their ability to completely turn a blind eye when one of theirs has their hand caught in the cookie jar.

Isnt it interesting the head of the venezuelan army Lucas Rincon Romero who announced Chavez resigned and appointed his replacement in the middle of this coup is now head of Chavez's interior ministry? Boy for aiding a coup he sure got some nice perks. In other words it was your standard scapegoat fearmonger power grab. See Hitlers Reichstag Fire Decree for reference.

Anybody who honestly believes this election will be clean and fair are living in a utopian dream world.

And lets not forget before Chavez became a champion of Democracy while dining with Castro he decided he was going to cast his own vote in 1992 with his own coup

Hugo casting his own vote

There's more to that story I'm sure.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Huge Caracas rally for Chavez rival before vote
...The crowd appeared to number in the hundreds of thousands. Organizers claimed more than 1 million people attended...
Text


And Genx87 I don't think steeple thinks being like fidel is a bad thing , so the comparison probably won't help?


What does my opinion of castro have to do with chavez?

Chavez is not a communist, his ideas go back a long time in that area of the world, it is based off of other revolutionaries who wanted to break free from colonialism's strangling grasp, watch that movie and you may learn something about Simon Bolivar.

Simon Bolivar in fighting for Venezuelans freedom represented what the United States won from UK 30 years before for South America.

Chavez is free market and not a commie, so get over it, he is a populist, because there are a lot of poor people who want to modernize and he follows in the footsteps of a long line of revolutionaries. It makes him wildly popular and a hero, and in the end he has helped greatly, whether your unjustified prejudice against the ideas of how well a modern democratic socialist system performs,

He has helped the common man regardless of how much neocon supporters want the Venezuelan peoples oil back.

Watch this and learn a bit about who he is and what he is about.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Huge Caracas rally for Chavez rival before vote
...The crowd appeared to number in the hundreds of thousands. Organizers claimed more than 1 million people attended...
Text


And Genx87 I don't think steeple thinks being like fidel is a bad thing , so the comparison probably won't help?


What does my opinion of castro have to do with chavez?

Chavez is not a communist, his ideas go back a long time in that area of the world, it is based off of other revolutionaries who wanted to break free from colonialism's strangling grasp, watch that movie and you may learn something about Simon Bolivar.

Simon Bolivar in fighting for Venezuelans freedom represented what the United States won from UK 30 years before for South America.

Chavez is free market and not a commie, so get over it, he is a populist, because there are a lot of poor people who want to modernize and he follows in the footsteps of a long line of revolutionaries. It makes him wildly popular and a hero, and in the end he has helped greatly, whether your unjustified prejudice against the ideas of how well a modern democratic socialist system performs,

He has helped the common man regardless of how much neocon supporters want the Venezuelan peoples oil back.

Watch this and learn a bit about who he is and what he is about.



I can see some comparisons however you are talking apples and oranges as these are free countries not colonies but this paragraph is revealing.

....He(Bolivar) had seen his dream of eventually creating an American Revolution-style federation between all the newly independent republics, with a government ideally set-up solely to recognize and uphold individual rights, succumb to the pressures of particular interests throughout the region, which rejected that model and allegedly had little or no allegiance to liberal principles.

For this reason, and to prevent a break-up, Bolívar wanted to implement in Gran Colombia a more centralist model of government, including some or all of the elements of the Bolivian constitution he had written (which included a lifetime presidency with the ability to select a successor, though this was theoretically held in check by an intricate system of balances).
This move was considered controversial and was one of the reasons why the deliberations met with strong opposition. The convention almost ended up drafting a document which would have implemented a radically federalist form of government, which would have greatly reduced the powers of the central administration.

Unhappy with what would be the ensuing result, Bolívar's delegates left the convention. After the failure of the convention due to grave political differences, Bolívar proclaimed himself dictator on August 27, 1828 through the "Organic Decree of Dictatorship".He considered this as a temporary measure, as a means to reestablish his authority and save the republic, though it increased dissatisfaction and anger among his political opponents. An assassination attempt on September 25, 1828 failed, in part thanks to the help of his lover, Manuela Sáenz, according to popular belief.

Although Bolívar emerged physically intact from the event, this nevertheless greatly affected him. Dissident feelings continued, and uprisings occurred in New Granada, Venezuela and Ecuador during the next two years

Text

now to be fair I'll go watch your movie:)