Costco Apologizes For Bibles Labeled As Fiction At California Store

[Retro Rob]

Thats just it though, we use math to quantify the chances of life evolving elsewhere and use that to make an intelligent guess, which is all that it is.

...but its more than just a guess....these numbers are often used as evidence, such as "there are too many stars and we're discovering planets every week, so there simply has to be life out there".

You want to know what is truly arrogant, the belief that this vast universe was built just for us.

For the record, I don't think the Universe was built for us...I just think Earth was since radiation-bathed space is deadly and inhospitable.

There are (best guess) 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (someone please check my math but if its off it is to low) "solar systems" in the Universe and that is just from the galaxies that we can see. The number could easily be many magnitudes higher. If you really want to twist your mind, since the light that we see from those stars is millions/billions of years old perhaps that number is far less due to the stars dying.

No disrespect, but so what? That isn't evidence. This sounds like a faith-based assumption.

To believe that all of that was created for such a primitive species such as ours (relatively speaking) is beyond arrogant.

I agree, that's why I only believe the earth was created for "us". I personally believe the rest of the cosmos are just evidence of a creator with unimaginable power.

 

[Retro Rob]

The biggest arrogance that I see is that anyone can possibly look at the vastly damn near infinite cosmos and say that we are the only intelligent life out there.

Actually, current evidence (which is ZERO) supports this conclusion...unless you can provide some evidence of life outside of this planet/solar system. Again, I don't rule out other life, I just don't currently believe there is any, and complex math still cannot create something that is not there/never existed.

 

[werepossum]

Pony boy was correct? We're all burning.


Doubtful.

ROFLMAO!

If it's a choice between Hell and spending eternity playing with pretty pretty toy horses, bury my ass in asbestos 'cause I'm ready to burn.

 

[werepossum]

Actually, current evidence (which is ZERO) supports this conclusion...unless you can provide some evidence of life outside of this planet/solar system. Again, I don't rule out other life, I just don't currently believe there is any, and complex math still cannot create something that is not there/never existed.

If G-d created this whole universe just for us then He blew it big time. We don't need it, we don't deserve it, and we don't appreciate it.

 

[zinfamous]

Actually, current evidence (which is ZERO) supports this conclusion...unless you can provide some evidence of life outside of this planet/solar system. Again, I don't rule out other life, I just don't currently believe there is any, and complex math still cannot create something that is not there/never existed.

yet, you believe in The Omnipresent Sky Lord..despite ZERO evidence, despite complex math not being able to create something that is not there/never existed.

and so on, and so on.

 

[Retro Rob]

yet, you believe in The Omnipresent Sky Lord..despite ZERO evidence, despite complex math not being able to create something that is not there/never existed.

and so on, and so on.

I posted that for the expressed reason of holding you to the same standard of evidence you hold us.

Is it not logically inconsistence to ask me for evidence for "The Omnipresent Sky Lord", while failing to provide any for your belief in ET? :hmm:

 

[senseamp]

I posted that for the expressed reason of holding you to the same standard of evidence you hold us.

Is it not logically inconsistence to ask me for evidence for "The Omnipresent Sky Lord", while failing to provide any for your belief in ET? :hmm:

There is evidence of life on a planet, namely Earth. Life on Earth is itself statistical evidence for life on other planets.
We have only observed about 10 planets closely enough to detect life, and so far we have about 10% of the ones we observed having life.
With trillions of trillions of planets in the Universe, it's not an unreasonable assumption that there is life on other planets. It's almost a certainty.
The Omnipresent Sky Lord is yet to be observed, so there is absolutely no reason to believe it exists.

 

[Retro Rob]

There is evidence of life on a planet, namely Earth. Life on Earth is itself statistical evidence for life on other planets.

No, there isn't simply "life on a planet", which is a horrid oversimplification.

This planet meets extremely specific conditions, even to the smallest precise measurement that had to be met, or we wouldn't exist.

From what I've read, even a small percentage point of variation in some aspects of our place in the solar system would make life impossible. According to some I've heard on some of my favorite programs (like "How the Universe Works"), we're literally on a razor's edge...any slight shift, we would not exist, and that's before the conditions for life to evolve were in existence.

I don't think anyone can say what the chances are of that happening again because we haven't seen a repeat performance. I don't think chance/cosmic luck is that precise in the countless aspects needed for intelligent life to even start evolving -- so many things had to go nearly perfectly right. Chance simply cannot account for all of this.

I've never seen it repeated, so I cannot believe it.

 

[senseamp]

No, there isn't simply "life on a planet", which is a horrid oversimplification.

This planet meets extremely specific conditions, even to the smallest precise measurement that had to be met, or we wouldn't exist.

From what I've read, even a small percentage point of variation in some aspects of our place in the solar system would make life impossible. According to some I've heard on some of my favorite programs (like "How the Universe Works"), we're literally on a razor's edge...any slight shift, we would not exist, and that's before the conditions for life to evolve were in existence.

I don't think anyone can say what the chances are of that happening again because we haven't seen a repeat performance. I don't think chance/cosmic luck is that precise in the countless aspects needed for intelligent life to even start evolving.

I've never seen it repeated, so I cannot believe it.

Since Earth exists, the probability of life existing on a planet is not zero.

Given enough experiments, the improbable becomes certain.

There are ~ 10^24 planets in the Universe.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/01/05/how-many-planets-are-in-the-universe/

 

[kotss]

Since Earth exists, the probability of life existing on a planet is not zero.

Given enough experiments, the improbable becomes certain.

There are ~ 10^24 planets in the Universe.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/01/05/how-many-planets-are-in-the-universe/

In this particular fact Rob M. is correct. Held to the higher standard of actual evidence we do not have any that life exists anywhere else, as we know it. There is no shame or wrong in admitting this. It is the truth so far. Now are there probabilities that life could exist elsewhere, yes. But that alone is not evidence. Taking this the other way, is there a probability of god existing, yes. Is there any evidence of god's existence, no.

 

[zinfamous]

I posted that for the expressed reason of holding you to the same standard of evidence you hold us.

Is it not logically inconsistence to ask me for evidence for "The Omnipresent Sky Lord", while failing to provide any for your belief in ET? :hmm:

the difference is that one can be rationally argued using "fancy math" and general accepted knowledge.

With what we know about the vastness and complexity of the universe, and the utter improbability of life existing, anywhere, plus the fact that we know life does exist, somewhere, suspecting that it exists somewhere else is not only improbable, it is very much possible.

the other discussion can't be argued for or against, really--because once someone tries to apply numbers to such a thing, it ceases to be what it is.

 

[Retro Rob]

the difference is that one can be rationally argued using "fancy math" and general accepted knowledge.

"Generally accepted" knowledge doesn't translate to truth.

You seem to be lowering your standard of evidence because you simply want to believe there is life outside this solar system. I think you're being a hypocrite.

Either there is evidence, or there isn't. You hold me to this standard, and I am simply doing the same to you.

John Lennox once said something I totally agree with: "2+2=4, but knowing that has never put 4 pounds into my pocket".

With what we know about the vastness and complexity of the universe, and the utter improbability of life existing, anywhere, plus the fact that we know life does exist, somewhere, suspecting that it exists somewhere else is not only improbable, it is very much possible

As I said, I am not closed to the idea, but speculations and probabilities cannot be tested in this regard, so they mean nothing.

I mean, what if someone suspected I robbed the Comerica bank yesterday. I mean, we have evidence that people rob banks, so is speculation alone enough to get me arrested and tried?

 

[bshole]

"Generally accepted" knowledge doesn't translate to truth.

You seem to be lowering your standard of evidence because you simply want to believe there is life outside this solar system. I think you're being a hypocrite.

For all practical purposes the question is irrelevant. There is no possible way for us to ever know or interact with it. We could send an unmanned mission to the nearest planet outside of our solar system and it would take thousands of years to ge there. Good luck developing a space craft that would be operative for that amount of time.

Im not sure the point really matters. There is nothing in religion that precludes life on other plants. If God made life here, he could make it there too. There is nothing in evolution that precludes life on other planets. If it evolved here, it could evolve there as well (given the right circumstances).

 

[senseamp]

In this particular fact Rob M. is correct. Held to the higher standard of actual evidence we do not have any that life exists anywhere else, as we know it. There is no shame or wrong in admitting this. It is the truth so far. Now are there probabilities that life could exist elsewhere, yes. But that alone is not evidence. Taking this the other way, is there a probability of god existing, yes. Is there any evidence of god's existence, no.

Even a tiny probability that life could exist on a planet, given trillions of trillions of planets, is evidence of a high likelihood that life exists elsewhere. There is no such evidence for any likelihood that an Omnipresent Sky Lord exists at all. Hence you cannot compare ET to God. Belief in existence of ET life is a simple question of probability given available evidence, whereas belief in existence of a God is pure faith.

 

[JD50]

Has anyone actually said that it's an indisputable fact that life exists on other planets? All I see are people saying it's a high probability that life exists elsewhere. Maybe I missed a post.

 

[ElFenix]

If G-d created this whole universe just for us then He blew it big time. We don't need it, we don't deserve it, and we don't appreciate it.

if you really think that some omnipotent being doesn't want you to use the term "God" then said omnipotent being also sees through your hyphen.

 

[kotss]

Even a tiny probability that life could exist on a planet, given trillions of trillions of planets, is evidence of a high likelihood that life exists elsewhere. There is no such evidence for any likelihood that an Omnipresent Sky Lord exists at all. Hence you cannot compare ET to God. Belief in existence of ET life is a simple question of probability given available evidence, whereas belief in existence of a God is pure faith.

And here you are wrong, probabilities do not directly equate to evidence. They are indicators that you will find evidence. I am not against the existence of ET and I am against Gods but please lets keep the logic straight. Probabilities tell you a likelihood not proof. I was not comparing ET to God either. I believe that there are no Gods, but I can only factually state that there is no evidence to show a God exists. Finding the existence of life on another planet is only dependent upon finding it existing there. With a God you have to enter into the supernatural realm which at this point in my knowledge cannot be done and therefore has a probability of approaching 0 of being proven.

 

[sm625]

It is fiction. You cant prove more than maybe 2% of what is said in the bible. Hell even the wildest work of fiction contains more provable truth than that.

 

[Darwin333]

...but its more than just a guess....these numbers are often used as evidence, such as "there are too many stars and we're discovering planets every week, so there simply has to be life out there".

No, it really is just a guess.... We have a data point of exactly one which makes it impossible to mathematically chart. IMHO the universe is just too vast for life to have not formed elsewhere but again that is an opinion based off of an educated guess based off of the sheer number of stars in the universe.

For the record, I don't think the Universe was built for us...I just think Earth was since radiation-bathed space is deadly and inhospitable.

So why do you think the universe was created and who was it created for?

No disrespect, but so what? That isn't evidence. This sounds like a faith-based assumption.

Wait, exactly what is a "faith based assumption"? That there are millions of galaxies or that there are even more stars? I thought it was pretty clear that the number we currently use is just an educated guess based on what we have observed so far.

I agree, that's why I only believe the earth was created for "us". I personally believe the rest of the cosmos are just evidence of a creator with unimaginable power.

So he created it without reason? Just fucking around? Giving us something to look at simply to show off? Oooh, maybe the devil did it to give us doubt?

It sounds like that in your opinion its useless, why would he make something so vast yet completely useless?

 

[Darwin333]

Actually, current evidence (which is ZERO) supports this conclusion...unless you can provide some evidence of life outside of this planet/solar system. Again, I don't rule out other life, I just don't currently believe there is any, and complex math still cannot create something that is not there/never existed.

Of course I can't provide evidence that there is life out there. I can however provide evidence that what we are made of isn't "special" in the least. We are comprised of the most common elements in the universe, quite literally stardust, and given the numbers I already listed I think that its inevitable that conditions for developing life exist elsewhere in the universe. Do I know this for a fact, of course not. Do I "believe this" like you believe in god, of course not. Do I think that it is very highly probable, yes I do.

Do I think that it matters? Probably not. Frankly we won't be able to travel to other stars for many many generations, if ever. Any species that has the ability to travel here most likely wouldn't or if they did they would simply observe from a distance, looking down on us like we would monkeys in a cage.

Did you know that there is a 1% genetic difference between us and certain other primates? EVERYTHING that makes us different, gives us the ability to create art, allowed us to create societies, improve and use technology, all of it is due to that 1%. Can you imagine a race that has evolved that is similarly 1% "genetically better" than us? Why wouldn't they treat us like we treat lower primates?

The above is simply a fun thought exercise, so please keep all the "omfg you have a faith based belief".

 

[Atomic Playboy]

WE are the dominate species on this planet. Whether or not we're special lies, in my opinion, in the belief there is life outside this solar system.

But saying over and over again that we're not special doesn't make it so.

What makes us the dominant species on the planet? The vast majority of the planet is uninhabitable by humans; we can't live in the oceans, which covers 70% of the Earth, we can't live above 5,000 meters or so, we can't live in deserts, extreme heat or extreme cold; roughly 95% of our planet's surface is off limits to us, at least in terms of permanent habitability. And that's just the surface; we certainly can't live inside our planet, where heat and pressure become unsurvivable less than a few thousand meters down. That's not very much range for the dominant life on this planet.

But you know what lives in all these places? Bacteria. Bacteria can survive everywhere on Earth that we can and everywhere that we cannot. They live in temperatures well above boiling and well below freezing, in the deepest depths of the ocean and the highest mountain peaks, from driest desert to wettest rainforest, inside volcanoes and lakes of acid. Bacteria survived the vacuum of space on several trips to the moon. Scientists estimate that there are ten times more bacterial cells than human cells in your own body; we aren't even the dominant species in and of ourselves. How can we claim dominance over something as big as the Earth when we inhabit so little of it?

Don't get me wrong; no species has the ability to shape the planet as we do. We are the smartest thing that's ever lived, and we often put that to good use on impressive things; bacteria aren't building a Panama Canal even if we gave them 3 billion years to do it (and we know this, because we gave them 3 billion years to do it and all we got was strep throat). But life is fickle; dinosaurs dominated for 135 million years and were wiped out by a cosmic impact. If a similar strike were to happen today, we'd likely be wiped out as well; bacteria would be just fine. Set off every atomic bomb stockpiled in the world and humans would have no chance of survival; bacteria would continue unabated. When it comes to dominance of life, bacteria tick every category; they have the highest number of organisms (5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 by most estimates), the longest lifespans (colonies are effectively immortal), the quickest reproduction (several minutes), the most habitat (everywhere), and they've virtually immune to disasters that would cause extinctions in higher organisms (they've survived every extinction level event to date). They aren't the biggest or most noticeable, but they were here long before anything else and they'll be here long after we're gone. Our "dominance" is fleeting.

 

[Darwin333]

I posted that for the expressed reason of holding you to the same standard of evidence you hold us.

Is it not logically inconsistence to ask me for evidence for "The Omnipresent Sky Lord", while failing to provide any for your belief in ET? :hmm:

LMAO!!!

I don't know ANY serious scientist that believes in ET. I do know a fuckload that talk about the probability or possible likelihood of them existing. Its mostly a fun thought exercise since it most likely won't matter in our lifetime.

Come on Rob, I thought you were above the ignorant argument of trying to equate science to faith.

 

[Darwin333]

There is evidence of life on a planet, namely Earth. Life on Earth is itself statistical evidence for life on other planets.
We have only observed about 10 planets closely enough to detect life, and so far we have about 10% of the ones we observed having life.
With trillions of trillions of planets in the Universe, it's not an unreasonable assumption that there is life on other planets. It's almost a certainty.
The Omnipresent Sky Lord is yet to be observed, so there is absolutely no reason to believe it exists.

Please take notice of the word "almost" before you go saying that he is basing anything on faith.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, it really is just a guess.... We have a data point of exactly one which makes it impossible to mathematically chart. IMHO the universe is just too vast for life to have not formed elsewhere but again that is an opinion based off of an educated guess based off of the sheer number of stars in the universe.

If it's just a guess, that's fine, as I only have a guess as to what isn't out there.

But again, for all we know, this could be a one-shot-deal, as the conditions for life to even to begin to evolve are really non-existent when left to appear on their own, IMHO. I cannot logically and realistically credit all this to sheer "luck of the draw", which the evidence also doesn't support.

Luck is a supernatural force itself....you may as well say "God did it".

So why do you think the universe was created and who was it created for?

I don't know exactly why the Universe was created if it indeed was (which I believe, but for the sake of this discussion, I won't factually say it was), but I am under the opinion that it was left for us to marvel at, and wonder about who created it.

For example, a car doesn't need a sleek design for it to serve its purpose, yet, the auto maker gives it one anyway. This is specifically done to market the vehicle. Likewise, I don't think we're in need of a starry heavens, but I'd say it is there to draw people close to its creator when we contemplate it.

Just my opinion, though.

Wait, exactly what is a "faith based assumption"? That there are millions of galaxies or that there are even more stars? I thought it was pretty clear that the number we currently use is just an educated guess based on what we have observed so far.

A "faith based assumption", according to how it is defined here, is a belief without evidence.

So he created it without reason? Just fucking around? Giving us something to look at simply to show off? Oooh, maybe the devil did it to give us doubt?

LOL, I don't know why he created it, but I gave my opinion above.

It sounds like that in your opinion its useless, why would he make something so vast yet completely useless?

It isn't useless....we may not understand its use completely or at all yet. Those in science thought the Appendix was useless...UNTIL they understood it's purpose.

 

[JD50]

Has anyone actually said that it's an indisputable fact that life exists on other planets? All I see are people saying it's a high probability that life exists elsewhere. Maybe I missed a post.

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