Correlation found between Muslim religiousity and violence

[desura]

http://www.dw.com/en/study-finds-young-devout-muslims-in-germany-more-prone-to-violence/a-5655554

"The willingness to commit violent crimes grows among young Muslim immigrants in Germany the more religious they become, according to a joint survey by the German interior ministry and the Institute for Criminology Research of Lower Saxony (KFN).
By comparison, the study found that just the opposite was true for Christian immigrants. The willingness to commit violent crimes, such as armed robbery or assault and battery, among young Catholics and Protestants decreases with religious fervor, the KFN study revealed.
The study said the reason for this difference had to do with the very different image of masculinity. Muslim devotion promotes the acceptance of macho behavior, said Christian Pfeiffer, the director of the Lower Saxony research institute and one of the authors of the study."

It is important to note that this is a study in which both groups are immigrants, and so xenophobia cannot be blamed or failure to integrate since both are immigrants.

 

[xthetenth]

It is important to note that this is a study in which both groups are immigrants, and so xenophobia cannot be blamed or failure to integrate since both are immigrants.

Unless you acknowledge that one of those two religions is an out group in Germany. This isn't a difficult concept.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The study said the reason for this difference had to do with the very different image of masculinity. Muslim devotion promotes the acceptance of macho behavior, said Christian Pfeiffer, the director of the Lower Saxony research institute and one of the authors of the study.

Pfeiffer said that in their religion, and in the family at home, young Muslim immigrants are frequently exposed to a more conservative world view and lay claim to a variety of male privileges.

Found the problem.

 

[interchange]

Male gender is strongly correlated with motor vehicle deaths. Since there are more motor vehicle deaths than homicides, I vote to make it illegal for men to drive.

 

[brycejones]

Found the problem.

Imagine that, people who become intolerant are more likely to lash out. Not like we haven't seen it here with periodic meltdowns from certain members.

 

[FIVR]

Suspicious that they have a man named Christian doing studies on Muslims.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yep, the meltdown and lashing out by intolerant members has increased since November 9th

 

[desura]

Male gender is strongly correlated with motor vehicle deaths. Since there are more motor vehicle deaths than homicides, I vote to make it illegal for men to drive.

Male insurance rates are higher than female insurance rates.

 

[desura]

Unless you acknowledge that one of those two religions is an out group in Germany. This isn't a difficult concept.

So the solution is to make Islam an in-group? That would require importing 100 million muslims. Or to keep Muslims out so that they don't experience discrimination?

 

[OutHouse]

Male gender is strongly correlated with motor vehicle deaths. Since there are more motor vehicle deaths than homicides, I vote to make it illegal for men to drive.

for a MD, i expected more.

 

[interchange]

for a MD, i expected more.

Like?

I just wanted to throw a silly analogous correlate out there to put some pause on generalizing this correlation to policies on Islam.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Big surprise, Islamic terrorists strap bombs to kids. Who would guess that as they get more dedicated to their religion they are more willing to be terrorists.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/child-suicide-bombings_us_57bb87aae4b00d9c3a19a62f

 

[justoh]

kik

 

[OutHouse]

Like?

I just wanted to throw a silly analogous correlate out there to put some pause on generalizing this correlation to policies on Islam.

what policies on islam are you talking about? this was a study about violence between two religions.

"The willingness to commit violent crimes grows among young Muslim immigrants in Germany the more religious they become, according to a joint survey by the German interior ministry and the Institute for Criminology Research of Lower Saxony (KFN).
By comparison, the study found that just the opposite was true for Christian immigrants. The willingness to commit violent crimes, such as armed robbery or assault and battery, among young Catholics and Protestants decreases with religious fervor, the KFN study revealed.

 

[Commodus]

Every time I see an attempt to frame Islam as inherently evil, it still comes across like Kurtz's unsent message from Heart of Darkness: "exterminate all the brutes."

You may say you don't want genocide, but you're creating an extremely dark logical trap for yourself. If it's supposedly impossible to live with Islam in the world, then what other choice do you have than forcing conversions and eliminating anyone who resists? Mass deportations and complete isolation are horrible by themselves, but they won't change that Islam will still exist and influence other cultures. And you may call for a "cooldown" period between Islam and other cultures, but if you sincerely believe that Islam is inherently violent, then you also believe that a cooldown is impossible.

Yes, Islamic extremist terrorism is a problem, and it's frequently caused by pursuing strains of ultra-orthodox belief. What I don't like is the interpretation of the study: the notion that the truer to Islam you are, the more violent you are. It's more complicated than that. There are profoundly devout Muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly, and ISIS members who are really just there for the money and power. Treat the religion as a complex, multi-faceted thing and you stand a better chance of solving the underlying issues.

 

[desura]

Every time I see an attempt to frame Islam as inherently evil, it still comes across like Kurtz's unsent message from Heart of Darkness: "exterminate all the brutes."

You may say you don't want genocide, but you're creating an extremely dark logical trap for yourself. If it's supposedly impossible to live with Islam in the world, then what other choice do you have than forcing conversions and eliminating anyone who resists? Mass deportations and complete isolation are horrible by themselves, but they won't change that Islam will still exist and influence other cultures. And you may call for a "cooldown" period between Islam and other cultures, but if you sincerely believe that Islam is inherently violent, then you also believe that a cooldown is impossible.

Yes, Islamic extremist terrorism is a problem, and it's frequently caused by pursuing strains of ultra-orthodox belief. What I don't like is the interpretation of the study: the notion that the truer to Islam you are, the more violent you are. It's more complicated than that. There are profoundly devout Muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly, and ISIS members who are really just there for the money and power. Treat the religion as a complex, multi-faceted thing and you stand a better chance of solving the underlying issues.

Not at all. You set up a number of strawman which you've imagined. I've befriended Muslims in the past and I know that most are good normal people. But they are entering a society that is foundationally set up on Christian English constitutional principles.

But, on aggregate, there is a problem. In aggregate there is higher rates of political violence. So Western societies can take in a small number, but there is likely a tipping point where society goes to shit.

This is about puncturing liberal self delusion and equivocation. Liberal toleration is itself a form of Christian extremism.

 

[xthetenth]

So the solution is to make Islam an in-group? That would require importing 100 million muslims. Or to keep Muslims out so that they don't experience discrimination?

Or as an alternative you could simply not actively ostracize Muslims. That'd bring it a lot closer to an equivalent comparison between actually normalized variables.

Because as it stands there's an alternate model that is also congruent with the results, in which right wingers and other bigoted people in western countries push for more aggressive action against muslims, who are presented with being part of a country that by its actions is incompatible with their beliefs. As a result the people who identify most strongly with their religion are going to be the ones who actively reject the values the society they might otherwise be a part of proclaims.

9/11 was a huge success because America lost its damned mind and started doing the heavy lifting of Al-Qaeda's recruiting for them.

Right now you sound like Republicans do when they crow about how the school districts they underfund are underperforming.

 

[Zaap]

The real problem is, Islamic terrorist violence and all that causes it are far bigger problems than either side of the pendulum will ever solve. ('just kill them!' on one side of the extreme, and just sing kum by yah and [insert meaningless 'try to understand how mutli-faceted they are!' platitude here] on the other.

The far more troubling reality is, there is no "solving" anything by those outside of Islam. The Muslim world will simply- as a whole, to the same measure that the Christian world and others have- have to undergo an enlightenment period and upgrade itself to move forward into the modern world. That can't be done for the religion by outsiders, and its not an easy, platitude solution so therefore it can't be grasped by many.

It would actually be best if the modern, western world and the Islamic world were kept as separate from each other as possible. That is NOT, in my belief to say that don't allow all Muslim immigration- it IS however to say that those with radical beliefs in as much as we can know who they are should have limited access to the west.

On the flipside, modern western nations should divest themselves from fiddling around in Muslim countries. Definitely pull out all military forces and stop meddling around in that part of the world. (WAY easier said than done, I know). Trade and such is fine, but it should be kept to a mutually beneficial minimum. (IE: sell food and basic needs there, fine. Sell guns, planes, tanks, nuclear technology etc... no.)

 

[desura]

Or as an alternative you could simply not actively ostracize Muslims. That'd bring it a lot closer to an equivalent comparison between actually normalized variables.

Because as it stands there's an alternate model that is also congruent with the results, in which right wingers and other bigoted people in western countries push for more aggressive action against muslims, who are presented with being part of a country that by its actions is incompatible with their beliefs. As a result the people who identify most strongly with their religion are going to be the ones who actively reject the values the society they might otherwise be a part of proclaims.

9/11 was a huge success because America lost its damned mind and started doing the heavy lifting of Al-Qaeda's recruiting for them.

Right now you sound like Republicans do when they crow about how the school districts they underfund are underperforming.

Last paragraph is a subtle racial dig. Which is always on the tip of every leftist 's worldview

BTW, lol I'm influential? I'm ostracizing them? This is about objective observations. Islam within Western Christian societies, for that matter, Islam within Sinic Chinese societies is a problem. Increasing the number of Muslims then is just stupid. It is possible to be civil in everyday society while in the abstract supporting a national level immigration and security policy.

 

[xthetenth]

Last paragraph is a subtle racial dig. Which is always on the tip of every leftist 's worldview

BTW, lol I'm influential? I'm ostracizing them? This is about objective observations. Islam within Western Christian societies, for that matter, Islam within Sinic Chinese societies is a problem. Increasing the number of Muslims then is just stupid. It is possible to be civil in everyday society while in the abstract supporting a national level immigration and security policy.

Man you are incredibly touchy about anything that sounds like being called out on your flagrant racism. If you don't want discussions with leftists to include them mentioning what a giant racist you are you could try toning that down. There ya go. You've got me making an actual dig about your views on race. Happy now?

For those actually curious, the last paragraph was actually a statement that desura is one of the people who support the policies that cause the problem and that just like Republican education policy, he's using the negative effects of the policy and rhetoric he supports to justify the policy and rhetoric he supports, thereby creating a downward spiral. And no desura, you individually aren't important. However you and your entire side on the issue are.

I'm glad you realize that education policy is often guided along the lines of whatever proxies for race are handy and that it is racist as hell, but that's irrelevant to the larger point, and honestly it's pretty annoying that any conversation with you gets derailed by how incredibly sensitive you are to anything that smacks of criticism of your views about race.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Last paragraph is a subtle racial dig. Which is always on the tip of every leftist 's worldview

BTW, lol I'm influential? I'm ostracizing them? This is about objective observations. Islam within Western Christian societies, for that matter, Islam within Sinic Chinese societies is a problem. Increasing the number of Muslims then is just stupid. It is possible to be civil in everyday society while in the abstract supporting a national level immigration and security policy.

Instead of using confirmation bias to justify your Muslim xenophobia why don'y you read something useful, like this article by Pew research:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Enjoy.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Found the problem.

Islam is pretty much inherently conservative, with the exception of the Baha'i (if that hippie stuff even counts) and probably a couple other disavowed offshoots.

EDIT: Also, this obviously ignores the reality that liberal worldviews are just as violence-capable (hello 1970s) in a Western environment, as well as the likelihood that religiosity among Christians in America likely correlates with conservatism.

 

[interchange]

what policies on islam are you talking about? this was a study about violence between two religions.

Oh like, for instance, a temporary ban on immigration from Islamic nations.

 

[Commodus]

Not at all. You set up a number of strawman which you've imagined. I've befriended Muslims in the past and I know that most are good normal people. But they are entering a society that is foundationally set up on Christian English constitutional principles.

But, on aggregate, there is a problem. In aggregate there is higher rates of political violence. So Western societies can take in a small number, but there is likely a tipping point where society goes to shit.

This is about puncturing liberal self delusion and equivocation. Liberal toleration is itself a form of Christian extremism.

You say most are good, normal people... but yet you've previously proposed a complete if temporary break in contact with the Muslim world. No immigration, no travel, no cultural exchanges. And of course, you've repeatedly implied that Islam is inherently dangerous in a way that Christianity somehow isn't.

And having Muslim friends doesn't give you a free pass; there's a distinction between being friends and sincerely respecting those friends' values. Imagine telling the Muslims you've befriended that you want to ban them from meeting their families overseas for a decade or two, that too many of their kind in the country is too risky, or that you see their faith as inherently dangerous to Western society. How would you expect them to react? Smile while you take a dump on their cultural identity? It's like touting that you have black friends while you parrot "all lives matter" garbage.

Clearly, ISIS and other forms of Muslim extremism mean that you should conduct thorough background checks. But setting an arbitrary quota based solely on religion? That's both simplistic and anti-humanitarian. It may even work against you by convincing more Muslims that the West is waging a war against Islam as a whole, and not just terrorists.

 

[desura]

Man you are incredibly touchy about anything that sounds like being called out on your flagrant racism. If you don't want discussions with leftists to include them mentioning what a giant racist you are you could try toning that down. There ya go. You've got me making an actual dig about your views on race. Happy now?

For those actually curious, the last paragraph was actually a statement that desura is one of the people who support the policies that cause the problem and that just like Republican education policy, he's using the negative effects of the policy and rhetoric he supports to justify the policy and rhetoric he supports, thereby creating a downward spiral. And no desura, you individually aren't important. However you and your entire side on the issue are.

I'm glad you realize that education policy is often guided along the lines of whatever proxies for race are handy and that it is racist as hell, but that's irrelevant to the larger point, and honestly it's pretty annoying that any conversation with you gets derailed by how incredibly sensitive you are to anything that smacks of criticism of your views about race.

I'll just ignore your attempts at distraction and say that school funding is not why black kids do worse. Black kids do worse because the black community on a whole is in bad shape due to a variety of injustices accumulated over the centuries. Simply spending a lot on the schools won't solve it because their home environments and surrounding culture are the real problem.

As for the downward spiral, a Muslim immigration halt is not ostracizing Muslims. It simply halts new entrants. I do acknowledge that intrusive disruptions of existing communities can have a downward spiral effect, but a halt of new people from Pakistan is not an intrusive disruption of existing communities. Existing communities get to exist as they were and no one seriously has ever considered anything like you fear monger over.