"Cop Killer handgun" found in New York

[Nebor]

http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cf...&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=573700&rfi=6

Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Can anyone believe the DA would spew such bullshit?

 

[acemcmac]

According to wiki, this chambering is VERY new. Can't find any dates, but this gun is considered "cutting edge"

What they need to distinguish is that this individual gun did not kill all of those people and that its just really popular amognst the cop hating crowd.....

 

[mugs]

So... they claim that 425 cops have been killed with this model of gun, but this is the ONLY one they've ever recovered? That doesn't say much for their policework.

 

[Rebasxer]

Five-Seven pierces Kevlar at 300yrds or something silly like that, pierces Kristat (kevlar + titanium) at 100 yrds. No figure its a cop killer gun. Add in a 20 round magizine standard and almost no recoil.

 

[Scouzer]

is there another name for kristat? not coming up on google.

EDIT: It's actually called crisat

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: acemcmac
According to wiki, this chambering is VERY new. Can't find any dates, but this gun is considered "cutting edge"

What they need to distinguish is that this individual gun did not kill all of those people and that its just really popular amognst the cop hating crowd.....

The round came out 1994 in the FN P90.

 

[VenomXTF]

I used to live in Far Rockaway. Don't go there.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: mugs
So... they claim that 425 cops have been killed with this model of gun, but this is the ONLY one they've ever recovered? That doesn't say much for their policework.

Yeah, something just doesn't seem right about that figure.

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: Nebor
http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cf...&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=573700&rfi=6

Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Can anyone believe the DA would spew such bullshit?

Yes. I believe the DA will spew any bullshit to keep his job. A very high percentage of officers are actually shot with their own weapon. I don't know any that carry that handgun.

 

[VanTheMan]

Originally posted by: acemcmac
According to wiki, this chambering is VERY new. Can't find any dates, but this gun is considered "cutting edge"

What they need to distinguish is that this individual gun did not kill all of those people and that its just really popular amognst the cop hating crowd.....

The FN Five-SeveN has been around for quite awhile.

 

[UNCjigga]

Isn't that gun in Counter-strike? Their version is much weaker though.

 

[imported_sling]

The Five-Seven has been around for a few years. It was only in the last three or so that you could readily get them in the US, and until shortly after the assault weapons "ban" (whatever you want to call it) they were insanely expensive. Even now you're looking at a $700 pistola. It's highly unlikely that those numbers are even close to correct. I'd be suprised if it was 10 cops killed with it.

The more I read about it, this seems like a big deal right now. FN Herstal has bowed to pressure and discontinued the specific ammunition that carries the velocity (a fantastic 2000+ FPS from a handgun) and replaced it with a slower 1500fps cartridge. Not that one can't reload their own ammo and get the performance that they are after.

This handgun has been on my wishlist for a while, and reading some things out right now, it looks like they are trying to get a ban passed on them, a ban with vague language that could concievably ban ANY weapon capable of piercing law enforcement vests. Yes that means 9mm at 1250fps, .357 at 1100 fps, .50 AE, .500 S&W, etc. I don't think that's going to fly myself.

I think this pistol looks fantastic. I want something that doesn't have a huge recoil so that my wife can be reliable with it. It's not that she can't fire something bigger, it's just a fact that not having the muscle to hold it steady won't really yield results when firing multiple rounds. This handgun solves that issue with high capacity and very low recoil. I like it, and after reading this stuff, I think it has moved up the priority list a little.

Here's one on gunbroker, at the typical price.

ATF's info about the ammunition. I don't see that the "No Longer For Sale" ammo was armor piercing to begin with.

This is what I was afraid of with the less powerful ammo. The action is made to cycle behind a certain amount of power.

 

[Howard]

Maybe a heavy revolver shooting a lighter cartridge would be more suitable? Greater mass + less powder = less recoil

EDIT: Correction: greater mass + lower KE imparted to bullet = less recoil

 

[imported_sling]

Originally posted by: Howard
Maybe a heavy revolver shooting a lighter cartridge would be more suitable? Greater mass + less powder = less recoil

I'm just not a huge fan of revolvers, that and 20rnds > 6-8 rnds

It's overkill, you don't have to have that many rounds, but it's nice. I've never bought a handgun that I intended to harm someone with, but it's good know you can if you need to. I like to shoot, it's fun, and this seems to fit both bills well.

 

[JonTheBaller]

That Five-SeveN is definitely an interesting piece. Never seen a handgun with a slide that was partially made of polymer before.

 

[RichardE]

Wish it was better in CS..

That gun f'ing sucks in CS :|

 

[imported_sling]

"Since 1994, 425 of the 616 police officers killed in the line of duty have been killed with a FN 5.7, the DA said."

US Dept of Justice: Between 1995 and 2004, of the 636 officers killed -- (It's near the top of the page)

How can only 616 Officers be killed in the line of duty between 1995 and 2004, but only 616 killed between 1994 and Present.

I would guess that someone pulled the numbers out of his brown eye, but I'm going to keep looking for more detailed info.

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

From www.bradycampaign.org:

Although the manufacturer claims that armor-piercing ammunition for this pistol is not available to civilians, the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence recently test fired the Five-seveN, with a 5.7 x 28 mm round purchased from a retail gun dealer, and found it easily penetrated typical threat level IIA, Kevlar police body armor. Brady Center staff purchased the Five-seveN and ammunition at a Virginia gun store.

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Level IIA Body Armor, according to Wikipedia is only 16 layers of Kevlar, and is easily pierced by 9mm at 1090fps and .357 at 1250fps. 9mm and .357 with that kind of power is not at all hard to come by, and legal, at least in my area.

Also from Wiki: IIA: This armor protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) at a reference velocity of 341 m/s (1120 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and .40 S&W caliber Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets, with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr) at a reference velocity of 322 m/s (1055 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in

This armor isn't even realy made to protect against many of the ammunitions fired by handguns FAR more likely to be in the hands of a criminal, so it definatly isn't stopping this round. From what I gather this level of body armor is not considered good protection for law enforcement.

The US Army's Interceptor vest is IIIA and considered good protection against 9mm/.357

I'm betting that some departments use IIA, but it's not considered adequate and any department buying new equipment is not likely to buy vests of that level.

My Conclusion (Finally): I'd like to know where those death toll numbers come from. I don't believe that 5.7x28mm is truely armor piercing, as everyone quotes that the ammo can pierce IIA grade armor, which is easily pierced by 9mm hot loads. I believe that the brady campaign is spewing misleading information about the cartridge and the handgun. Many of their claims are easily disputed by anyone that cares enough to dig a little.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

Originally posted by: Rebasxer
Five-Seven pierces Kevlar at 300yrds or something silly like that, pierces Kristat (kevlar + titanium) at 100 yrds. No figure its a cop killer gun. Add in a 20 round magizine standard and almost no recoil.

I'd also like to see the sources behind this.

Seems like more "ZOMG we need to ban teh guns for teh children!11!one!" type statements. Not to mention I'd love to see someone try to hit a human sized target with a pistol at 300yds.

 

[imported_sling]

Originally posted by: ElMonoDelMar

Originally posted by: Rebasxer
Five-Seven pierces Kevlar at 300yrds or something silly like that, pierces Kristat (kevlar + titanium) at 100 yrds. No figure its a cop killer gun. Add in a 20 round magizine standard and almost no recoil.

I'd also like to see the sources behind this.

Seems like more "ZOMG we need to ban teh guns for teh children!11!one!" type statements. Not to mention I'd love to see someone try to hit a human sized target with a pistol at 300yds.

I don't believe for a second that I can hit a human at 100yds, much less 300.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

Originally posted by: sling
I don't believe for a second that I can hit a human at 100yds, much less 300.

I have trouble hitting human sized targets with a pistol at 10 yards. That's why I keep my Mossy 500 handy.

But that's another topic for another day.

 

[Nebor]

The Five-seven with the ammo it was designed for certainly does pierce body armor. Lots of it. I read tests in which it penetrated through several bullet proof vests consecutively.

I was enamored with them when they were first offered to civilians, but having looked into them I've found the following:
They're extremely large, about as large as an H&K USP.
They're super light. Even fully loaded with 20rnds I believe they weigh less than 1.5lbs.
They feel strange in the hand.
They're too expensive. ($800-1000)
You have to load your own ammo if you want a "real" load.
It isn't terribly effective at killing a person. Many have compared it to a .22 Magnum.

 

[imported_sling]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The Five-seven with the ammo it was designed for certainly does pierce body armor. Lots of it. I read tests in which it penetrated through several bullet proof vests consecutively.

I was enamored with them when they were first offered to civilians, but having looked into them I've found the following:
They're extremely large, about as large as an H&K USP.
They're super light. Even fully loaded with 20rnds I believe they weigh less than 1.5lbs.
They feel strange in the hand.
They're too expensive. ($800-1000)
You have to load your own ammo if you want a "real" load.
It isn't terribly effective at killing a person. Many have compared it to a .22 Magnum.

Please link the tests! I would like to see just what ammunition they are testing, if they are factory loads, and which FN ammo spec they are. The article's claims just can't be factual if the ammo required is either not available in the US or requires hand loading.

I haven't heard of too many crack busts where cartridge reloading equipment has been confiscated.

Also, some quick math from the stats here only 212 officers have been killed by handguns in the line of duty since this handgun was available in the US, the DA claims that 425 have been killed just with this handgun alone, I smell BS. That's even totals from 1999, and I'm not sure if it was even available then. Even if it was, the numbers were pretty small until the past few years. I still talk to shop owners who have never seen the round, or the handgun, or they haven't even heard of it.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: Nebor
The Five-seven with the ammo it was designed for certainly does pierce body armor. Lots of it. I read tests in which it penetrated through several bullet proof vests consecutively.

I was enamored with them when they were first offered to civilians, but having looked into them I've found the following:
They're extremely large, about as large as an H&K USP.
They're super light. Even fully loaded with 20rnds I believe they weigh less than 1.5lbs.
They feel strange in the hand.
They're too expensive. ($800-1000)
You have to load your own ammo if you want a "real" load.
It isn't terribly effective at killing a person. Many have compared it to a .22 Magnum.

Please link the tests! I would like to see just what ammunition they are testing, if they are factory loads, and which FN ammo spec they are. The article's claims just can't be factual if the ammo required is either not available in the US or requires hand loading.

I haven't heard of too many crack busts where cartridge reloading equipment has been confiscated.

Can't link the test, they were in a gun magazine (I have subscriptions to about 8 of them.)

The round was the SS190, which FN does not sell to civilians in the United States. It's classified as armor piercing, and is thus only available as a Class III weapon\ammunition.

I think the most recent civilian ammo for the five-seven is the SS197SR.

 

[imported_sling]

I'm sure you can get it, but joe criminal isn't going to be buying it at the local shop. Their claims are highly bloated, and misleading. I knew that when I started, but I wanted to get some facts about it, since it seems to be a bigger issue than I thought it was when I first read your post.

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
I used to live in Far Rockaway. Don't go there.

now lean back...lean back...lean back