Cop beats man at traffic stop

[nickqt]

You're just not going to bother are you? Read the fucking DOJ reports! They refer to whole police departments of major American cities. It's *not* simply the outrage du jour. The proof is already there that there are *major* issues with policing in the United States. If you can't be bothered to even acknowledge that, why are you even bothering to post in a thread like this?

One more time from the Albuquerque summary

"The use of excessive force by APD officers is not isolated or sporadic."

I repeat, NOT ISOLATED OR SPORADIC.

Major city after major city after major city after major city.

You can resume rapidly waving your hands now.

Reading comprehension. It's fun.

I've never said there isn't a problem.

I've never said policing isn't broken.

I've simply stated that without actual numbers, quoting Albuquerque NM police brutality does not mean a damn thing in regards to every other police jurisdiction in the US.

Yes, major cities were named.

What about all of the other major cities not named? The small cities not named. The large towns. The small towns. The rural police. Ad nauseum.

I'm not waiving my hands around. I'd like to know how many complaints were made total, in the US, in any given year. Those stats seem like they would require lots of research, and that the number isn't included in your links.

How many police brutality complaints were made in the US in any year over the past 15 years? Until you answer that, then pointing at APD, or any one particular police department (or 4 police departments, or 10 police departments) doesn't prove that it's not just "bad apples".

APD sucks. So does NOPD.

Great.

So that means that all cops are bad? Most cops? A large minority?

You tell me. Besides your blanket, generic "American policing is teh suxors" statement, what percentage of cops are bad? All, most, a large minority?

Come on, you've clearly read your own links, so you tell me, since I'm clearly just waiving my hands around, or something.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Reading comprehension. It's fun.

I've never said there isn't a problem.

I've never said policing isn't broken.

I've simply stated that without actual numbers, quoting Albuquerque NM police brutality does not mean a damn thing in regards to every other police jurisdiction in the US.

Yes, major cities were named.

What about all of the other major cities not named? The small cities not named. The large towns. The small towns. The rural police. Ad nauseum.

I'm not waiving my hands around. I'd like to know how many complaints were made total, in the US, in any given year. Those stats seem like they would require lots of research, and that the number isn't included in your links.

How many police brutality complaints were made in the US in any year over the past 15 years? Until you answer that, then pointing at APD, or any one particular police department (or 4 police departments, or 10 police departments) doesn't prove that it's not just "bad apples".

APD sucks. So does NOPD.

Great.

So that means that all cops are bad? Most cops? A large minority?

You tell me. Besides your blanket, generic "American policing is teh suxors" statement, what percentage of cops are bad? All, most, a large minority?

Come on, you've clearly read your own links, so you tell me, since I'm clearly just waiving my hands around, or something.

I edited my post so I'll wait and see if you want to amend yours before replying.

 

[pcgeek11]

I would like to the beginning of the video as to how this progressed to the whippng. It does have a bearing on the part that was posted.

But it was left out. How convenient Hmmm.

 

[nickqt]

I edited my post so I'll wait and see if you want to amend yours before replying.

Policing in the US is broken.

First off, while crimes rates peaked everywhere in the late 80s/early 90s, the police have not adjusted accordingly. This is institutional lag and piss-poor understanding of the community these police officers should be trying to protect, rather than trying to protect themselves from.

Second, because the US has been occupying (freedomizing) various countries over the past 15 years, many of our police officers who are ex-military still act like they're occupying the communities they're supposed to be protecting.

Third, the SWAT training of the 80s-90s paired with the militarization of civilian police with post-911 gear means that police have all sorts of "non-lethal" means of subduing someone that end up becoming lethal.

And don't get me started on how prosecutors and the police are on the same team, covering for each other. This aspect needs to be corrected post haste. As long as it's the prosecutor who decides what goes to Grand Jury, then there really is no recourse when there is abuse.

I support every police officer wearing a camera and the footage being public property. I support re-training police officers so that they don't consider every interaction with the public one of life and death. And police abuse complaints should be reviewed by a group of citizens with transparency to the public.

All of that said, when people post a link to a video or a story on here, usually every other day, that isn't proof of anything. Tens/hundreds of thousands of police-citizen encounters happen daily, and even worst case scenario, very few are anything like what we see in the videos posted here. Reports showing X, Y and Z issues with police departments, from training to physical abuse to illegal stops, etc, is different than every single cop being bad...or a majority, or even a substantial minority. For instance, what about rural police departments? Small town police departments?

Again, numbers of complains of abuse would go a long way towards showing that all/most/a whole bunches of police are bad. And of course those numbers would need to be parsed depending on whether multiple complaints/abuses were committed by just a few police officers.

I'm all for fixing any number of causes of abuse. I'm all for every single complaint being sent directly to Fed'rul big gub'mint itself. At least then the problem would be a lot more quantifiable.

Until then, posting a video or story every other day really doesn't prove anything at all. At least not what the people who post think it proves. If the only evidence is a video or story every other day, than it does seem like just a few bad apples amongst the tens of thousands of orchards.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I've already been admonished for posting this story:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2426179

Glen feels they should all be in one tidy bad apple thread...

Wasn't that done last year and then changed back? I vaguely remember getting an infraction during that process.

I don't think we should cram all the incidents into one thread. There are too many events to manage it one thread.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Y'all realize that when you're only able to point to one or less incidents a day out of millions of police interactions per day that you're making the point that it really is "bad apples" out of thousands of orchards?

Right?

Hello?

Anyone there?

You do realize that is one out of thousands that are not reported?????

 

[JEDIYoda]

Until then, posting a video or story every other day really doesn't prove anything at all. At least not what the people who post think it proves. If the only evidence is a video or story every other day, than it does seem like just a few bad apples amongst the tens of thousands of orchards.

What postying thimngs like this proves is that it is an on going problem!!
It is already a well known fact that not all Police interactions with citizens are documented for whatever reason!

It is way more than just a few bad apples......to state otherwise is to have your head in thye sand!!

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Y'all realize that when you're only able to point to one or less incidents a day out of millions of police interactions per day that you're making the point that it really is "bad apples" out of thousands of orchards?

Right?

Hello?

Anyone there?

Not really. First off, he has a long history of abuse. So many unpublicized incidents that we don't know about.

Plus, what about all of his fellow officers that have seen him abuse people, and not reported it? They are all complicit in his alleged crimes. Ever more incidents.

Third, where is the oversight of the police dept? Why was he allowed to go from one dept to another after his history? Way more incidents, and showing no regulation or punishment of cops.

So, there are a lot more incidents from this one officer, and no one did anything. That demonstrates a culture of corruption in allowing officers to do this and never get punished.

But I think you know this and are just trying to deflect criticism.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I mean, rather than using anecdotes, couldn't someone research the actual number of complaints of police brutality over year over the 50 states? You'd still need to figure out which ones are multiple complaints against 1 officer to find the # of bad cops out there, assuming every single complaint is legitimate and not made up.

That would be an excellent thread.

These one every other day threads pointing at 1 cop is anecdotal evidence and don't make much of an argument for anything.

Given the cops don't even keep track of everyone they execute, what makes you think they will keep records for this? Or if they do, allow anyone to see them?

Multiple cities are under DOJ review for systemic abuse. That's a fact. Whole city police departments involving thousands of officers at a minimum. Look at Ferguson PD. You really think that was a "one bad police dept" in the entire country? Hell, the only bad dept in the state? LOL

 

[HomerJS]

"Just follow their orders and don't be an asshole", amirite?!

Tell it to this guy, amirite?? You realize the same rules don't apply while black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4GSehYkt8Y

 

[realibrad]

Tell it to this guy, amirite?? You realize the same rules don't apply while black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4GSehYkt8Y

Lol dummy. He was being sarcastic.

 

[rudeguy]

Seattle, Albuquerque, Cleveland, New Orleans, Newark, Portland, Ferguson (just a few cities where the DOJ found a whole bunch of 'shit' just in the last couple of years):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/justice-department-police-review_n_6271660.html

Your law enforcement system is broken.

The whole "justice system" is broken.

A person can be sentenced to life in prison over weed. Just weed. No violence, just weed. But a person can kill another person and be out of prison in a few years. A person can rape and molest children and be out in a couple years. A cop can assault people, violated the constitution, bring false charges and its unlikely they will ever face a single charge.

Then there is the second part of the problem which is that police believe they are above the law. They use violence every single day on innocent people and its thought of as normal. However if a citizen did the same thing to a cop, the citizen would be beaten, jailed and possibly killed. The police also see our constitutional rights as impediments to their job and not guides to their job. Anyone standing up for their rights is seen as a target. If you do not let the police do whatever they want, you must be a criminal.

 

[BoberFett]

I've already been admonished for posting this story:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2426179

Glen feels they should all be in one tidy bad apple thread...

When cops stop being horrible shitbags, there will be fewer cop threads. This is completely within the cops control.

 

[Linux23]

It doesn't change the fact that pointing at one instance every other day without total numbers doesn't mean anything.

If someone was serious, they'd look up the total number of reported police brutality incidents, subtracting out multiple complaints about the same police officer.

The data has to be out there. Go. Find it. That would make an interesting thread.

when there's smoke, there's usually a fire.

 

[Darwin333]

Y'all realize that when you're only able to point to one or less incidents a day out of millions of police interactions per day that you're making the point that it really is "bad apples" out of thousands of orchards?

Right?

Hello?

Anyone there?

Because we all know that cops who will break the law will absolutely let you film them while they are doing it.

And did you see that guys friggen rap sheet? How about the officers that helped him keep his job over the years, are they the good cops?

 

[Darwin333]

Yeah, all of that is great.

Now, how about some actual numbers. Even if the majority of police in those specific jurisdictions were using brutal policing tactics, it doesn't then mean every cop in the US, or even most cops in the US, use brutal policing tactics.

I am not saying the policing system in the US is great, or isn't broken. What I am saying is that pointing at a specific instance every other day isn't actual data showing anything more than a few "bad apples", as seems to be the parlance of choice around here for this topic. And when you say "American justice system", that includes more than just those specific jurisdictions, no? Doesn't that include, uh, all jurisdictions?

I know you're Canadian, but rather than the usual suspects simply linking to some story or video twice a week, why not propose something that may solve the issue. Someone above said that each jurisdiction handles reports of police brutality, rather than the state or Federal government.

Perhaps the Federal gub'mint should be involved in all reports of police brutality as cases of civil rights violations? Or would that be too much big gub'mint?

You do realize that the data is filed and kept, for the most part, by individual departments.

We can't even get an accurate count on innocent people shot by police in a years time because of the self reporting and you expect them to accurately report all of the complaints against them? Even if they do, that would be like the IRS letting me audit myself.

 

[Darwin333]

So, because we see very few incidents on camera, this means that there are substantially more incidents? Maybe, maybe not.

I think that it is a very safe assumption to say that most cases of police brutality, planting evidence, wrongful arrests, etc are not caught on camera.

 

[Darwin333]

Reading comprehension. It's fun.

I've never said there isn't a problem.

I've never said policing isn't broken.

I've simply stated that without actual numbers, quoting Albuquerque NM police brutality does not mean a damn thing in regards to every other police jurisdiction in the US.

Yes, major cities were named.

What about all of the other major cities not named? The small cities not named. The large towns. The small towns. The rural police. Ad nauseum.

I'm not waiving my hands around. I'd like to know how many complaints were made total, in the US, in any given year. Those stats seem like they would require lots of research, and that the number isn't included in your links.

How many police brutality complaints were made in the US in any year over the past 15 years? Until you answer that, then pointing at APD, or any one particular police department (or 4 police departments, or 10 police departments) doesn't prove that it's not just "bad apples".

APD sucks. So does NOPD.

Great.

So that means that all cops are bad? Most cops? A large minority?

You tell me. Besides your blanket, generic "American policing is teh suxors" statement, what percentage of cops are bad? All, most, a large minority?

Come on, you've clearly read your own links, so you tell me, since I'm clearly just waiving my hands around, or something.

In the post you were replying to:

Force incidents are not properly investigated, documented, or addressed with corrective measures

So you want hard numbers from the very institutions under fire when those institutions self report them and the DOJ says that they do a shitty job at it.

IF we could get all their numbers it still wouldn't mean anything, it's garbage data and garbage in = garbage out. Hell in most places you have to go to the actual police department that the guy who just beat your ass works in and ask one of his buddies (or even the guy that beat the fuck out of you) for a complaint form and we all know that nothing could possibly be intimidating about that.

So I would really really love those numbers too. Could you please tell me a way in which I can get accurate ones and I promise I will get right on it.

 

[Darwin333]

I would like to the beginning of the video as to how this progressed to the whippng. It does have a bearing on the part that was posted.

But it was left out. How convenient Hmmm.

I don't normally whip my camera out if I get pulled over by the cops, do you? Now if the cop goes all jackboot then I'm going to try to get evidence. If you were in a cab that got pulled over for a minor traffic violation would you pull out your phone and record the entire encounter or do you think it's more likely that you wouldn't even think about it until shit went sideways?

 

[Pipeline 1010]

When cops stop being horrible shitbags, there will be fewer cop threads. This is completely within the cops control.

Exactly. To address the core/root of the problem: when cops have a reasonable expectation that they WILL go to jail for being horrible shitbags, they will stop being horrible shitbags. Or they will go to jail. Either is fine by me.

 

[nickqt]

In the post you were replying to:



[/B]So you want hard numbers from the very institutions under fire when those institutions self report them and the DOJ says that they do a shitty job at it.

IF we could get all their numbers it still wouldn't mean anything, it's garbage data and garbage in = garbage out. Hell in most places you have to go to the actual police department that the guy who just beat your ass works in and ask one of his buddies (or even the guy that beat the fuck out of you) for a complaint form and we all know that nothing could possibly be intimidating about that.

So I would really really love those numbers too. Could you please tell me a way in which I can get accurate ones and I promise I will get right on it.

You and me both.

Look, if nothing else, this entire thread had turned from a "look at this video LOL COPS" to a "how do we actually prove something" thread.

Mission Accomplished.

Yes, how do we accumulate all of the police brutality/abuse complaints?

Should we make a law to ensure that all incidents get reported somewhere that is transparent to the public, as in name of officer, incident report, etc.

I'm new around here. Every couple of days someone posts a video or news report about some shitheel cop. Yeah, great. Welcome to observable reality. Whatcha goin' to do about it?

So, what are the conservatives, libertarians and libruuls willing to do to fix the problem? Join up and call for all police abuse complaints to be reported and investigated by the DOJ as possible civil rights abuses?

That might do something.

Just pointing at individual incidents doesn't do a G-D thing. At all. It's anecdotes and boo-hooin'. No one cares. It solves nothing. It proves nothing.

So. What?

Should police, as harbingers of the public good, be liable for each and every abuse complaint to the Federal Government?

Yes

No

Undecided

 

[Linux23]

You and me both.

Look, if nothing else, this entire thread had turned from a "look at this video LOL COPS" to a "how do we actually prove something" thread.

Mission Accomplished.

Yes, how do we accumulate all of the police brutality/abuse complaints?

Should we make a law to ensure that all incidents get reported somewhere that is transparent to the public, as in name of officer, incident report, etc.

I'm new around here. Every couple of days someone posts a video or news report about some shitheel cop. Yeah, great. Welcome to observable reality. Whatcha goin' to do about it?

So, what are the conservatives, libertarians and libruuls willing to do to fix the problem? Join up and call for all police abuse complaints to be reported and investigated by the DOJ as possible civil rights abuses?

That might do something.

Just pointing at individual incidents doesn't do a G-D thing. At all. It's anecdotes and boo-hooin'. No one cares. It solves nothing. It proves nothing.

So. What?

Should police, as harbingers of the public good, be liable for each and every abuse complaint to the Federal Government?

Yes

No

Undecided

what are you going to do about it? are you one of those people that says, "oh well, it's not me?" do you have to wait until you're in a position with LEO and it goes mildly bad to be an advocate against abusive LEO?

why does anyone need to produce numbers for you? you do the research and report back to us if you think this scenario with cops is getting better or worse.

to me, i don't think a thing has changed since the 1960'ish era. cops are cops. if you happen to get a good cop with some morals you live. if you get a cop with shit morals and kill on the brain then you're a dead fuck. fortunately technology is catching up. unfortunately even with technology these cowards are still getting away with murder.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

You and me both.

I'm new around here. Every couple of days someone posts a video or news report about some shitheel cop. Yeah, great. Welcome to observable reality. Whatcha goin' to do about it?

So, what are the conservatives, libertarians and libruuls willing to do to fix the problem? Join up and call for all police abuse complaints to be reported and investigated by the DOJ as possible civil rights abuses?

That might do something.

Just pointing at individual incidents doesn't do a G-D thing. At all. It's anecdotes and boo-hooin'. No one cares. It solves nothing. It proves nothing.

So. What?

I have an idea. Maybe we could create and fund some kind of a government agency that is full of people sworn to protect and serve us. When people hurt us, maybe the members of that agency could stop that person from hurting us and put him in jail. What could we call that agency? Maybe it would be some kind of group that polices bad people, so let's call them "the police" for now. Then, when a shitheel cop does shitty things to people, these "police" could arrest him and see to it that he is charged with a crime. This agency would be staffed by people who are willing to arrest this shitheel cop; not people who are his drinking buddies and who will bend over backwards to excuse and enable his bad behavior. I like it...I think I have solved the problem. IM me to send thank-you's and arrange any donations of gratitude to the Pipeline.

 

[Sunburn74]

We can't even get an accurate count on innocent people shot by police in a years time because of the self reporting and you expect them to accurately report all of the complaints against them? Even if they do, that would be like the IRS letting me audit myself.

Very well said

You and me both.
Should we make a law to ensure that all incidents get reported somewhere that is transparent to the public, as in name of officer, incident report, etc.

Yes. In essence, there is no checks and balance system for police misconduct. Self-regulation between police and prosecutors doesn't work. Its again akin to letting a person audit themselves. There is very little incentive to be punitive, barring losing face in the occasional lawsuit. There are reports every day of gross misconduct; there's currently a trial in Philadelphia about a group of Vice officers who dangled suspects off buildings as part of shakedowns for drug money.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/philly-cops-steal-500-000-drug-suspects-feds-article-1.1885741

You everyday hear about cases of people paid off or threatened into giving false testimony by prosecutors as well. This system clearly isn't working because it's essentially a system of self-policing.

Ultimately the solution needs to be an independent board within each city/county that has incentives to aggressively go after police and prosecutorial misconduct.

 

[pcgeek11]

I don't normally whip my camera out if I get pulled over by the cops, do you? Now if the cop goes all jackboot then I'm going to try to get evidence. If you were in a cab that got pulled over for a minor traffic violation would you pull out your phone and record the entire encounter or do you think it's more likely that you wouldn't even think about it until shit went sideways?

The video starting where it did means nothing without the full context of what happened prior to what we have... You can make a lot of assumptions based on a lot of things, but they are still just assumptions, not facts.