Conyers to Hold Hearings on Ohio Vote Fraud

[fbrdphreak]

Whether or not you think there was cheating in the election, please at least pass this information on. Also, if you are interested in a serious look at the discrepancies in Ohio, please contact YOUR representatives and have them attend this meeting. Read the editor's note for more info on helping get the word out.
Lastly, I would like to give a challenge to those who still say nothing is wrong with the 2004 elections: read ALL of the article linked here. After the very short article which I pasted in, there is the entire document sent to the Ohio Secretary of State by Dem Rep Conyers. This letter details a number of voting discrepancies in Ohio. PLEASE read this, as I truly believe it will cause most people to want a detailed investigation as much as I feel it is necessary. Thank you.

truthout article

Editor?s Note | Any who wish to see this hearing receive wide attention should contact their Senators and Representatives and ask that they attend. Furthermore, any who wish to see this hearing receive wide attention should contact the television network C-SPAN and ask them to broadcast the event in its entirety. C-SPAN accepts suggestions for events to be broadcast at events@c-span.org. The network can also be contacted via telephone at (202) 737-3220. - wrp

Conyers to Hold Hearings on Ohio Vote Fraud
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Report

Friday 03 December 2004

Democratic Representative John Conyers, Jr. of Michigan, ranking Minority member of the House Judiciary Committee, will hold a hearing on Wednesday 08 December 2004 to investigate allegations of vote fraud and irregularities in Ohio during the 2004 Presidential election. The hearing is slated to begin at 10:00 a.m. EST in the Rayburn House Office Building in Washington DC.

Democratic Representatives Melvin Watt and Robert Scott will also be centrally involved with the hearing. Rev. Jesse Jackson will be in attendance, along with Ralph Neas (President, People for the American Way), Jon Greenbaum (Director, Voting Rights Project, Lawyers Committee For Civil Rights Under Law), Ellie Smeal (Executive Director, The Feminist Majority), Bob Fitrakis ( The Free Press), Cliff Arnebeck (Arnebeck Associates), John Bonifaz (General Counsel, National Voting Institute), Steve Rosenfeld (Producer, Air America Radio), and Shawnta Walcott (Communications Director, Zogby International). Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell has been invited to attend.

The term ?hearing? is technically not accurate in this matter, as Conyers and his fellow Representatives will be holding this forum without the blessing of the Republican Majority leader of the Judiciary Committee. Staffers from the Minority office at the Judiciary Committee describe the event as a ?Members Briefing.? That having been said, this event will be a hearing by every meaningful definition of the word. Expert testimony will be offered, and a good deal of data on potential fraud previously unreported to the public will be discussed and examined at length.

The hearing came together thanks to a confluence of events, and through the work of like-minded individuals who are deeply concerned about the allegations of vote fraud in the Ohio Presidential election. Tim Carpenter and Kevin Spidel, along with other members of Progressive Democrats of America, went to Washington DC to speak with the Democratic members of the Judiciary Committee about the need for an investigation into these allegations. They found Rep. Conyers, his fellow Judiciary Democrats, and their staffers already working on assembling such an investigation.

The core of what Conyers and his fellow Minority members will be discussing at this hearing can be found in the letter below, which was sent by the Minority office to Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell on 02 December. In the letter, Conyers, along with Reps. Watt, Nadler and Baldwin, outline a broad and detailed series of questions and concerns about the manner in which the Ohio election took place.

I will be traveling to Washington DC to begin t r u t h o u t coverage of this event on Tuesday night, and we will keep you posted on further developments as they arise.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times and international bestseller of two books - 'War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You To Know' and 'The Greatest Sedition Is Silence.'

 

[CocoMunkee]

If its not close, Democrats need to cheat to win. Example, the race for Governor in Washington. Give it up already.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: CocoMunkee
If its not close, Democrats need to cheat to win.

Regardless of whether it's close, there will never be a better time to confirm the truth, either way.

Example, the race for Governor in Washington. Give it up already.

Spoken like someone who's afraid he may actually lose if the truth is known. :laugh:

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: CocoMunkee
If its not close, Democrats need to cheat to win. Example, the race for Governor in Washington. Give it up already.

Do you have some proof of your claims.. or do you just get all of your facts from talk radio?

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: CocoMunkee
If its not close, Democrats need to cheat to win. Example, the race for Governor in Washington. Give it up already.

Hey Snapperhead, how is a recount cheating? Please explain that to me.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I think there should be all the hearings & recounts as the legal system provides.

Although listening to Conyers does put me into a trance for 2 hours @ a time...

 

[aphex]

Originally posted by: CocoMunkee
If its not close, Democrats need to cheat to win. Example, the race for Governor in Washington. Give it up already.

Where's the problem in simply making sure ANY vote counts? Why aren't you outraged that even republican votes weren't counted?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Why cherry pick in Ohio.

All states need a recount.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Why cherry pick in Ohio.

All states need a recount.

I agree, recount all states, then perform sweeping election reform requiring direct paper trails for every single vote.

 

[justly]

"I would like to give a challenge to those who still say nothing is wrong with the 2004 elections"

Anyone out there that believes a wide scale election will have no problems is just as foolish as those that believe every irregularity is part of a conspiracy theory.

As for your link, while it does provoke some interesting questions it also indulges (mildly) the idea of a conspiracy theory that is probably not true.

"This lockdown must be viewed in the context of the aberrational results in Warren County. In the 2000 Presidential election, the Democratic Presidential candidate, Al Gore, stopped running television commercials and pulled resources out of Ohio weeks before the election. He won 28% of the vote in Warren County. In 2004, the Democratic Presidential candidate, John Kerry, fiercely contested Ohio and independent groups put considerable resources into getting out the Democratic vote. Moreover, unlike in 2000, independent candidate Ralph Nader was not on the Ohio ballot in 2004. Yet, the tallies reflect John Kerry receiving exactly the same percentage in Warren County as Gore received, 28%."

Putting resources into "getting out the vote" (no matter what party does it) is a poor excuse IMO since it will bring out both parties. Also didn't both canidates put on a intense campain in Ohio? Just because Kerry "fiercely contested" Ohio does not gaurantee that the % of democratic votes will change (especially when his competition is doing the same). Overall maybe the reason Kerry got the same % of votes as Al Gore did in 2000 is just evidence that the party split in that county have not changed, what a novel concept.

"B. Perry County Election Counting Discrepancies ? The House Judiciary Committee Democratic staff has received information indicating discrepancies in vote tabulations in Perry County. For example, the sign-in book for the Reading S precinct indicates that approximately 360 voters cast ballots in that precinct. In the same precinct, the sign-in book indicates that there were 33 absentee votes cast. In sum, this would appear to mean that fewer than 400 total votes were cast in that precinct. Yet, the precinct?s official tallies indicate that 489 votes were cast. In addition, some voters? names have two ballot stub numbers listed next to their entries creating the appearance that voters were allowed to cast more than one ballot."

If true then there is a problem, but for argument sake is there any way to determine that ALL of these alleged voters that cast two ballots where part of a conspiracy to sway the vote in one direction? Even if a conspiracy was proven (and I doubt it can be) why risk charges of fraud for 96 votes?

"In another precinct, W Lexington G AB, 350 voters are registered according to the County?s initial tallies. Yet, 434 voters cast ballots. As the tallies indicate, this would be an impossible 124% voter turnout. The breakdown on election night was initially reported to be 174 votes for Bush, and 246 votes for Kerry. We are advised that the Perry County Board of Elections has since issued a correction claiming that, due to a computer error, some votes were counted twice. We are advised that the new tallies state that only 224 people voted, and the tally is 90 votes for Bush and 127 votes for Kerry. This would make it appear that virtually every ballot was counted twice, which seems improbable."

Here we find a true discrepancy that was not only found but corrected. Now we are suposed to believe that it is improbable that "virtually every ballot was counted twice". Is the idea that only some of the votes where counted 3 times or more while other votes where counted only once more probable? For anyone that believes this demonstrates a conspiracy theory to elect Bush then I have to ask them to look at the numbers again as Kerry won this precint before and after the correction. Even if this precint went 100% Kerry (even more improbable) I would have to ask again who would risk a charge of fraud for 90 votes?

"In Butler County, a Democratic Candidate for State Supreme Court, C. Ellen Connally received 59,532 votes. In contrast, the Kerry-Edwards ticket received only 54,185 votes, 5,000 less than the State Supreme Court candidate. Additionally, the victorious Republican candidate for State Supreme Court received approximately 40,000 less votes than the Bush-Cheney ticket. Further, Connally received 10,000 or more votes in excess of Kerry?s total number of votes in five counties, and 5,000 more votes in excess of Kerry?s total in ten others."

There is no requirement to vote a strait party ticket, is there?. Instead of considering that Connally won on her merits (or that her oposition lost on his own merits) we should believe that ALL voters are mindless puppets that can be swayed to vote for someone that they don't agree with because of the political party they belong to? This sounds like another stab at a conspiracy theory to me.

I think any rational person would agree that some of the questions (in fact probably most of them) provided in your link deserve a responce from the state. My quarrel with this type of thread isn't about finding the truth its with the people that will not accept that some irregularities will happen without a conspiriacy theory or fraud.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Why cherry pick in Ohio.

All states need a recount.

I agree, recount all states, then perform sweeping election reform requiring direct paper trails for every single vote.

:thumbsup:

A national, verifiable voting system with mandatory standards for all polling places. Election day a national holiday, or better yet, election DAYS so everyone gets a chance to cast their vote. And strict mandatory federal penalties that make ANY election tampering a felony. For example, registering voters then tossing out the opposition party's registration cards. Or failure to purge voter rolls allowing dead people to vote.

We have two years until the next federal election. That's plenty of time to fix this broken system if people demand that it's fixed.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: justly

Anyone out there that believes a wide scale election will have no problems is just as foolish as those that believe every irregularity is part of a conspiracy theory.

As for your link, while it does provoke some interesting questions it also indulges (mildly) the idea of a conspiracy theory that is probably not true.

There are always some irregularities in elections, but what is the old Murphy's Law saying: Once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, but three times is enemy fire? I'm not saying for sure that anything happened, I'm just saying that there are too many "irregularities" to even think about ignoring it.

If true then there is a problem, but for argument sake is there any way to determine that ALL of these alleged voters that cast two ballots where part of a conspiracy to sway the vote in one direction? Even if a conspiracy was proven (and I doubt it can be) why risk charges of fraud for 96 votes?

Even if this precint went 100% Kerry (even more improbable) I would have to ask again who would risk a charge of fraud for 90 votes?

RISK charges of fraud?? What is this risk that you speak of?? First of all, the only risk in charging voter fraud is proving to the people once and for all that our democracy can be stolen by the rich & powerful. The only risk I see there is of America again becoming the nation of revolutionary free-thinkers that it was when it was created. Now, why risk it for 96 votes? 90 votes even? I would ask that of the potential cheaters. Why would they risk 96 or 90 votes? My logic says that if we prove they risked it for 96 or 90 votes, then they risked it for a LOT more votes than we know of at that point in time.

There is no requirement to vote a strait party ticket, is there?. Instead of considering that Connally won on her merits (or that her oposition lost on his own merits) we should believe that ALL voters are mindless puppets that can be swayed to vote for someone that they don't agree with because of the political party they belong to? This sounds like another stab at a conspiracy theory to me.

This part of the letter seemed the biggest leap of faith of all of the accusations to myself as well. While I understand the reason for investigating this, it seems a bit of a stretch. However, if any of the other allegations are proven true, perhaps this won't sound so far fetched.....

I think any rational person would agree that some of the questions (in fact probably most of them) provided in your link deserve a responce from the state. My quarrel with this type of thread isn't about finding the truth its with the people that will not accept that some irregularities will happen without a conspiriacy theory or fraud.

I perfectly accept that there are going to be irregularities. But to have SO many irregularities in ONE state, which happened to be a deciding factor in the election, is too much for me to ignore. If we investigate Ohio and Florida and nothing comes to fruition, then I will certainly accept the results of the election. But I cannot idly ignore the possibility of our democracy being stolen.

 

[justly]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: justly

Anyone out there that believes a wide scale election will have no problems is just as foolish as those that believe every irregularity is part of a conspiracy theory.

As for your link, while it does provoke some interesting questions it also indulges (mildly) the idea of a conspiracy theory that is probably not true.

There are always some irregularities in elections, but what is the old Murphy's Law saying: Once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, but three times is enemy fire? I'm not saying for sure that anything happened, I'm just saying that there are too many "irregularities" to even think about ignoring it.

I'm glad that you are not sure, that shows that you are open to the idea that it could just be an error and I have yet to meet anyone that didn't make errors, have you? I am not suggesting it be ignored, quite the contrary, if the voting system can be improved (and I'm sure it can) I am all for it, but these irregularities are not a sure sign of fraud and are even less proof of a conspiracy theory. "innocent untill proven guilty" is one of the main ideals of our justice system, and I think it should also apply here. There are some questionable circumstances reguarding some of these irregularaties and they should be looked in to, but I do not condone people accusing others of crimes that haven't been proven.

If true then there is a problem, but for argument sake is there any way to determine that ALL of these alleged voters that cast two ballots where part of a conspiracy to sway the vote in one direction? Even if a conspiracy was proven (and I doubt it can be) why risk charges of fraud for 96 votes?

Even if this precint went 100% Kerry (even more improbable) I would have to ask again who would risk a charge of fraud for 90 votes?

RISK charges of fraud?? What is this risk that you speak of?? First of all, the only risk in charging voter fraud is proving to the people once and for all that our democracy can be stolen by the rich & powerful. The only risk I see there is of America again becoming the nation of revolutionary free-thinkers that it was when it was created. Now, why risk it for 96 votes? 90 votes even? I would ask that of the potential cheaters. Why would they risk 96 or 90 votes? My logic says that if we prove they risked it for 96 or 90 votes, then they risked it for a LOT more votes than we know of at that point in time.

There is no penalty under U.S. law for committing voter fraud? news to me.

There is no requirement to vote a strait party ticket, is there?. Instead of considering that Connally won on her merits (or that her oposition lost on his own merits) we should believe that ALL voters are mindless puppets that can be swayed to vote for someone that they don't agree with because of the political party they belong to? This sounds like another stab at a conspiracy theory to me.

This part of the letter seemed the biggest leap of faith of all of the accusations to myself as well. While I understand the reason for investigating this, it seems a bit of a stretch. However, if any of the other allegations are proven true, perhaps this won't sound so far fetched.....

I think any rational person would agree that some of the questions (in fact probably most of them) provided in your link deserve a responce from the state. My quarrel with this type of thread isn't about finding the truth its with the people that will not accept that some irregularities will happen without a conspiriacy theory or fraud.

I perfectly accept that there are going to be irregularities. But to have SO many irregularities in ONE state, which happened to be a deciding factor in the election, is too much for me to ignore. If we investigate Ohio and Florida and nothing comes to fruition, then I will certainly accept the results of the election. But I cannot idly ignore the possibility of our democracy being stolen.

At least part of the reason you find "SO many irregularities in ONE state" is because it is a battleground state and "a deciding factor in the election". It is human nature that when something doesn't go the way you want/expect you put it under a magnifying glass see what went wrong. The real question for those people looking at the magnifying glass is, are they trying to use the evidence to prove their theory or are they using the evidence to find the truth? one is a worthy goal the other is not.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Very well spoken 🙂 I'm glad to see someone who doesn't automatically either support or deny the claims made.
Either way, I hope everyone will give this its due attention so we can finally put this to rest. To each their own as far as what they believe to be true, but we owe it to America to find out the truth once and for all.

 

[phillyTIM]

The people of the United States should hold the streets of Washington, DC hostage and call this election for what it was - a fraud, just as the people in Ukraine did to Kiev.

The same thing obviously happened here, just as something happened in Ukraine.

 

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
The people of the United States should hold the streets of Washington, DC hostage and call this election for what it was - a fraud, just as the people in Ukraine did to Kiev.

The same thing obviously happened here, just as something happened in Ukraine.

How was the election a fraud? We're still going through recounts, and nothing's been declared officially yet.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Recounts will not matter if your candidate loses.