Convert to Islam or die?
- Thread starter alchemize
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kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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While I certainly don't condone that kind of barbarism, Christianity itself is no stranger to similar practices. Let us not forget the warm and friendly fires of the Inquisition, or the pain and suffering wrought by multiple Crusades.
It's all just one big pissing contest amoung the cults, move along, nothing to see here.
It's all just one big pissing contest amoung the cults, move along, nothing to see here.
I was waiting for that argument...it didnt' take long...
It's been 100's of years since Christianity was barbaric on any kind of organized scale.
This is TODAY.
Plenty to see, certainly nothing to move along about. Your argument has no merit (or possibly merit as a footnote of "hey you guys did it 100's of years ago". Poor attempt at moral equivalence.
Arguing that the german actions against the Jews was based on religious motiviations is a joke. There was no attempt to convert, only exterminate. Why also gypsies? Why also intellectuals and Poles? Why Russians?
YOU quoting the holocaust with your constant pro-Palestinian bias is also of question.
Actually, I think (hope) that kage69 was simply trying to say that we should not tar all of Islam with the same brush, just as we should not judge Christianity by the Crusades, the Inquisition, the treatment of Jews in the 1400s etc. That this is horrible, and must be condemned, there is no doubt.
Your hope is misplaced I think...I've read too many of Kage69's posts.
I'm tarring Islam with the same brush that I tar Christianity with historically. During the (historic) times of the inquisition, and the crusades, fundamentalist (or whatever you would call it) christianity was barbaric.
During the (present) times of terrorism and suicide bombing, the taliban, wahhabism, etc., Fundamentalist Islam is barbaric.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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Don't be so naive. Christianity is not exempt from developing it's own fanatics who are more than willing to bomb a mosque or burn a rival church. Remember the Christian reprisals in Nigeria during the pagent riots? Granted Europe's history of religious based strife made following generations wary of that kind of conflict, which certainly isn't around to the extent it was say, before the Reformation, but as long as you have organized religions you will always have your violent fringe groups willing to use their faith as an excuse to kill or persecute those who do not share their views.
Based on a quick search, here's your perspective on religion:
You appear to have issues with religion, in general.
In 2101, will people like you stop trying to label 1.5 billion people as terrorists based on the actions of a select few? As for Iozina's post, I don't think you seem to get his point. While not about 'religion,' insofar as the movement was not part of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, Nazism (used to refer to the National Socialist German Workers' Party movement) was a political ideology that served also as a belief system. More importantly, though... whether you see it as 'religion' or not, it is an example of a horrible act that was committed as a result of a misinterpretation and twisting of ideals and of a small core of influential authority figures imposing (often forcibly) their misinterpretation onto the masses without facing sufficient opposition to stop them.
But as time passes and as the reasons behind actions get lost in a cloud of emotions and revised histories, people remember things in ways that serve the present more than the past. And it is because of their failure to remember why things happened... how things were allowed to happen... that atrocities continue to be committed in the name of religion, in the name of country, in the name of an ideology, in the name of God, and in the name of anything that will help those who commit them to gain support for their causes. And part of that failure is inextricably tied to our constant need to see everything in terms of pure good and pure evil rather than look at the whole picture, the whole story... our failure to look into the mind of 'evil' and the heart of 'good' to better understand the motivations and reasoning that drives a people to to beieve they are the latter when the more commonly held moral ideals seem to so clearly paint them as the former. Or do you really think that Hitler and all those in Nazi Germany saw themselves as evil... that those in the US who put first and second-generation native-born Americans of Japanese descent into interment camps, or who did not act to stop it, thought they were evil... that soldiers sent to die in Vietnam and ended up being involved in military actions that targeted civilians thought they were evil... that muslim extremists think they are evil... that Israeli soldiers who open fire on civilians or jewish extremists who go into Mosques and open fire on people praying think they are evil... that the Pharoahs and the Caesars and the Khans all thought they were evil? And the need to understand history doesn't end there...
You know, of course, that generations of anti-semitism in America and Europe stemmed at least partly from the belief that it was Jews who crucified Christ. But do you also know that one of the main reasons that the South was so determined to maintain their right to own slaves that they would secede from the Union was based not merely on economic reasons, but on religious views? That they believed they had a "God-given" right to own slaves in far more than just the figuritive sense (look into the numerous sources available in any library about the twisting of the story of Noah and his sons, in Genesis, being used as justification for putting the "descendents of Ham" into servitude)? And if you're going to tell me that this happened so long ago as to make it irrelevant because slavery ended over 100 years ago, will you also tell me that the persecution of blacks in America ended so long ago, as well? And if that's the case, that too much time passing makes something less relevant, then we need not even get into talking about the use of slave soldiers to help exterminate the native americans to help keep some of that blood off of "good Christian hands."
Do these examples make Christians evil? Of course not. And neither do the actions of a few in the name of Islam make all Muslims evil. I'll defer to a much wiser soul than myself and ask that if you bother to read the following words, quoted from the Appendix that Frederick Douglass wrote to his autobiographical narrative, you recognize that they apply to all adherents (and so-called adherents) of all faiths:
cumhail
But as time passes and as the reasons behind actions get lost in a cloud of emotions and revised histories, people remember things in ways that serve the present more than the past. And it is because of their failure to remember why things happened... how things were allowed to happen... that atrocities continue to be committed in the name of religion, in the name of country, in the name of an ideology, in the name of God, and in the name of anything that will help those who commit them to gain support for their causes. And part of that failure is inextricably tied to our constant need to see everything in terms of pure good and pure evil rather than look at the whole picture, the whole story... our failure to look into the mind of 'evil' and the heart of 'good' to better understand the motivations and reasoning that drives a people to to beieve they are the latter when the more commonly held moral ideals seem to so clearly paint them as the former. Or do you really think that Hitler and all those in Nazi Germany saw themselves as evil... that those in the US who put first and second-generation native-born Americans of Japanese descent into interment camps, or who did not act to stop it, thought they were evil... that soldiers sent to die in Vietnam and ended up being involved in military actions that targeted civilians thought they were evil... that muslim extremists think they are evil... that Israeli soldiers who open fire on civilians or jewish extremists who go into Mosques and open fire on people praying think they are evil... that the Pharoahs and the Caesars and the Khans all thought they were evil? And the need to understand history doesn't end there...
You know, of course, that generations of anti-semitism in America and Europe stemmed at least partly from the belief that it was Jews who crucified Christ. But do you also know that one of the main reasons that the South was so determined to maintain their right to own slaves that they would secede from the Union was based not merely on economic reasons, but on religious views? That they believed they had a "God-given" right to own slaves in far more than just the figuritive sense (look into the numerous sources available in any library about the twisting of the story of Noah and his sons, in Genesis, being used as justification for putting the "descendents of Ham" into servitude)? And if you're going to tell me that this happened so long ago as to make it irrelevant because slavery ended over 100 years ago, will you also tell me that the persecution of blacks in America ended so long ago, as well? And if that's the case, that too much time passing makes something less relevant, then we need not even get into talking about the use of slave soldiers to help exterminate the native americans to help keep some of that blood off of "good Christian hands."
Do these examples make Christians evil? Of course not. And neither do the actions of a few in the name of Islam make all Muslims evil. I'll defer to a much wiser soul than myself and ask that if you bother to read the following words, quoted from the Appendix that Frederick Douglass wrote to his autobiographical narrative, you recognize that they apply to all adherents (and so-called adherents) of all faiths:
cumhail
Again...no attempt to convert. That was the equivalent of Tutsi's versus Hutu's...
The point of this post was the barbaric forcing of conversion to a religion, not just old fashioned mass killing of your neighbors.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 27,209
- 36,170
- 136
I won't deny that I consider organized religions mere tools used to promote proactive social behavior and/or exert political influence. Save your judgement for those who actually go after other people's lives over religion. That's having a issue with religion.
Um, I'm not an expert on Bosnia etc, but isn't that just as bad or worse than than offering the choice of conversion or death? They were just slaughtering them because they were muslims.
Anyway, all this only goes to prove how dangerous religious extremism (of any religion) can be. It doesn't seem that any religion is immune (apart from maybe Buddism), as you look at some of the things happening in india etc. When you believe that you have the one true way, or that you are the chosen people (depending upon religion) it seems you lose all perspective and all respect for your fellow non-believing man
Yeah I think Ncircle is pretty much right on target; the asshats who are commiting this unjustified aggression should simply be obliverated.
The U.S.?backed Civilian Protection and Monitoring Team is downplaying and denying military atrocities to aid U.S.?Khartoum talks on the Western war on terrorism
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you all can sit back and bicker about how christains were a bunch of muders 500 hundred years ago or how the german killed millions of jews during the second world war
how about the american government letting the nigerian government knock of christians ....but being ok with that cuz they are helping out on the war on terrorism ? how is this ok
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you all can sit back and bicker about how christains were a bunch of muders 500 hundred years ago or how the german killed millions of jews during the second world war
how about the american government letting the nigerian government knock of christians ....but being ok with that cuz they are helping out on the war on terrorism ? how is this ok
I didn't say you were flaming, I said you were baiting.
But OK, I'll bite, much like I do when BOBDN says something stupid. Where exactly would you place these warheads, and how would this rid us of "this plague"?
You reveal your bias.
The fundamantal difference between Muslim extremism and the Crusades was in how each was justified. The Quran gives specific instructions about when and on whom to use violence, directed at all Muslims for all times. The actions conducted during Crusades, on the other hand, were in plain defiance of Jesus's teachings. I challenge you to find biblical justification for genocide. Keep in mind that the violent actions depicted throughout the Old Testament were specific actions at specific times unique to the situations that the Jews were facing at those times.
The worldwide Muslim uprising and the Crusades are not analogous; it is wrong to equate them.
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