"Convert or die!" What would you do?

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SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
0
If they wanted me to call God by the name Allah...I could do that. If they wanted me to be animals like them...I'd rather die.

ISIS are not muslim. islam does not condone such behavior. there is no compulsion in religion. to you yours, to me mine. islam sees every person as an equal in the eyes of their Lord, with the goal of worshipping one God.
only one religion out there sees non-followers as animals or sub-human, put on this earth to serve the chosen few.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
ISIS are not muslim. islam does not condone such behavior. there is no compulsion in religion. to you yours, to me mine. islam sees every person as an equal in the eyes of their Lord, with the goal of worshipping one God.
only one religion out there sees non-followers as animals or sub-human, put on this earth to serve the chosen few.
I

am sorry that A disclaimer -- ISIS it is agreed is very, very extreme and personally I do not believe that most Muslims agree with the methods of ISIS!!

you are blinded by your own hatred........yet ISIS is Muslim....sorry to inform you!!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-too-extreme-al-qaida-terror-jihadi

http://pamelageller.com/2014/02/rise-isis-islamic-state-iraq-syria.html/
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant or Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, abbreviated as ISIS or ISIL, is a devout Muslim group actively waging jihad in Iraq and Syria. They are notorious for their vicious savagery (to stand out among jihadist groups takes some doing) and bloodshed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/29/isis-declares-caliphate_n_5541634.html
BEIRUT, June 29 (Reuters) - An offshoot of al Qaeda which has captured territory in Iraq and Syria has declared itself an Islamic "caliphate" and called on factions worldwide to pledge their allegiance, a statement posted on Islamist websites and Twitter said on Sunday.

The move poses a direct challenge to the central leadership of al Qaeda, which has already disowned it, and to conservative Gulf Arab rulers.

The group, previously known as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and also known as ISIS, has renamed itself "Islamic State" and proclaimed its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as "Caliph" - the head of the state, the statement said.

"He is the imam and khalifah (Caliph) for the Muslims everywhere," the group's spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani said in the statement, which was translated into several languages and read out in an Arabic audio speech.

"Accordingly, the "Iraq and Sham" (Levant) in the name of the Islamic State is henceforth removed from all official deliberations and communications, and the official name is the Islamic State from the date of this declaration," he said.

The Sunni Muslim militant group follows al Qaeda's hard-line ideology but draws its strength from foreign fighters, battle-hardened from Iraq.

It seeks to re-create a medieval-style caliphate erasing borders from the Mediterranean to the Gulf and deems Shi'ite Muslims to be heretics deserving death.
 
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inf1nity

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,181
3
0
I would fake it until I could escape.

This.

You have much less control than you think you do. I can only assume that you're either really lucky or relatively young and haven't lived long enough to experience much of life's unexpected adversities.

Its easy for people living in stable, peaceful countries to say things like this, but when you live in a place where beheading and gruesome murders are common, and people are butchered merely for stating opposite opinions, yeah, we'll see what happens to all that bravery.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
I'd rather die on my feet than serve on my knees, and that goes for any religion.

"Convert or die!" F*ck you!
 

TeeJay1952

Golden Member
May 28, 2004
1,532
191
106
I too would be brave answering an imaginary challenge.
Did any answer that they would pretend cower?
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,893
5,522
136
It's not "converting" when there is a gun at your head. What you do is play lip service to whatever nonsense they want you to say, wait until the odds have improved, then kill the mongrels at first opportunity.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
There's a more serious discussion that could be had about this, but I'm not seeing it.

On the one hand you have the tradition of taking seriously the issue of proclaiming your choice of religion, with a tradition of martyrdom - you should not mind being killed because you say you're a Christian. That's consistent also with the commandment not to tell a lie, but I don't think that's really the issue or that there isn't an 'exception' against a greater evil - like lying to a hostage taker threatening hostages - though.

On the other hand, I think there's a widespread view agreeing with lying - why get killed by some radical terrorist over not saying what he demands you say? It's a bit like when you read a statement saying things you don't agree with at gunpoint for a camera they use as propaganda. A few might say 'you shouldn't do that', but a large majority are fine with saying whatever they want to not get shot. It's understood it's under duress.

There is a real gap between these two views, and our strong preference for the latter does confront us with what to do with the celebrated legacy of martyrs who did not.

Is it different if 'the government' (not the Obama government, crazy tea party, but like Ancient Romans or Maoist China) demands you take an 'official' position?

How about the long history of England where Catholics and Protestants alternated power and killed the other side? I don't recall the history of how much just 'changing sides' was an option, was chosen, how many were not killed that way, but my impression is many were killed either without that choice or for not taking it, and that just saying you switched wasn't that well thought of.

Where is the line drawn on what pressure is ok? What if they threaten to fire you? What if they threaten to fine you ten dollars? What if they offer you 30 silver pieces to convert?

Part of the history of these issues is that the people demanding the conversions know it's easy for people to lie, and they can make more demands. You say you convert - and they order you to kill your friend who refused to. Do you? It's not the same thing, but I recall hearing of the horrible choice given to some Jews in concentration camps, to assist with the processing and avoid being killed that way. But it's a similar 'what's the right thing to do' issue.

One thing that changes the issue is that on the one extreme, if you imagine that they *needed* the Jews to do it, and the Jews united in their refusal to cooperate, and it had a big effect on preventing the killing, that's easy to praise. But on the other, if refusing was simply something one person could do and they were immediately replaced and it didn't make any difference to the killing, far less easy to say they should do that.

It's an easy call for most to say 'say what the terrorists want'. The situation changes when it's not just that, but people are forced to live by the other rules - denounce your former religion is a small escalation, practice the new religion for years is another escalation, but go to war to fight for the new side and kill your own side, betray people on your own side so they're killed, actively work to support the war machine of the new side, are a few examples where this becomes a lot harder question than 'say you convert'.

For a bit of a possible answer, I think the general principle of coercion/duress excusing your doing what's demanded makes sense, though that line has to be found where it's too little coercion to justify it. It gets harder if you are ordered to work in a factory making bombs that will kill many of your people. It raises a question, if they are relying on your people's labor for that, are you better off not cooperating and saving other lives? And against that's a harder question if it's 'just you' and the impact is questionable.

But not that easy to accept doing things that will kill a lot of innocent people, either.

Put in the situation you are put in their military and told 'shoot those members of your own people or you'll get shot' - is either answer clearly the right one? From the view if you're the person your fellow follower is asked to shoot, you might hope he refuses, if it might help you.

The underlying issue though is how this duress is abusive to people - and yet effective in a lot of situations, and rarely questioned by the side doing it.

If an invading country can hire or pressure one group of the enemy to fight another, does anyone really say 'we shouldn't do that, it's not right'?

Another example - German or Japanese occupied countries in WWII, take the French resistance. We love to praise the resistance, but was it really that wrong for the people under threat to cooperate? Isn't condemning that inconsistent with the thing we're defending here of converting when Isis demands it? And yet it's hard not to praise the people who took great risks to fight the occupiers - and many will call those who cooperated under duress 'traitors'.

Isn't it funny how we try to simply an issue like that by just deciding a position such as 'anyone who cooperated was wrong', when I think it's a lot less clear than that?

But what about that moral issue of an occupied people forced to supply a war machine that will kill many others? What if that makes the difference in the evil side 'winning the war' and millions in the future living under tyranny because of it, does the duress still justify helping them? How much does it make a difference what the impact of cooperating is, is there a line where it'll be more harmful changes what's right?

And it's one thing for us to armchair hindsight look at this, but it recalls the statement by an American financier in the 1930's:

'I can always pay half of the poor to kill the other half.'

It's easy to condemn that paying, but if you are picking which half of the poor to join in that situation... and what use is the condemnation, if the situation allows it?

History is filled with that situation, and the guy who pays gaining power and writing the history.

We like to praise those who resist, yet we also love to make their stories come out where they actually defeat the tyrant, which doesn't usually seem to be an option.

We praise the family who housed Anne Frank, but if they were all shot for doing so, wouldn't condemning them for not housing her somewhat contradict the 'convert' answer?

As much as martyrdom has a history, I strongly lean towards the 'say what they want under duress' position. But it does get a lot harder with other choices.

How can we better prevent this sort of use of power for ruthless control and forcing people to be in those situations?

It's easy to condemn if the 'other guys' do it - what if it's your side?

It's not really analogous, but I think of when one group recruits spies and agents from the others, the difference between how quickly we condemn ones against us as horrible traitors, and yet have no issue with the other side doing the same thing and serving us as our spies and agents. For one example I think of the pressure - the duress - Israel can put on Palestinians to be their spies, the harm they cause their own people, and the fury with which Palestinians treat anyone who does it.

That comparison between the furious hate of such a traitor, with Israeli citizens presumably having no problem with doing it, seems relevant.

That goes from 'convert' at the point of a gun, to 'serve' the other side.

This doesn't even get into the issue of when a 'traitor' feels they are 'doing the right thing'. We sure don't view any German who tried to assassinate Hitler badly. I'm thinking of the cases of Russians in the Cold War who admired things like the respect for freedom of the west and helped us as spies - but what if an American betrayed our government for doing what they think is wrong, such as the illegal war under Reagan in Nicaragua, or they felt giving the Soviets nuclear secrets would prevent our launching nuclear war?

This is about duress, and that is an ugly issue.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
617
121
I saw something today one guy converted and they then cut his head off.

It's sadly a no win situation there at the moment I think.


Yep! read that too! ISIS can go fuck themselves, won't convert. Just like you won't make me think like a fuckheaded Liberal. I will ALWAYS be a staunch Conservative. I was baptized Lutheran.

Matthew 7:19

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


No 72 virgins for you asshole!
 

AstroGuardian

Senior member
May 8, 2006
842
0
0
As an atheist, i wouldn't hesitate to lie. I will lie and submit to anything that will ultimately save my life. Even if i do accept any religion it wont matter to me cause it doesn't have any value in my life. In fact, i got baptized because a good friend of mine asked me to be his best man and he was a baptized Orthodox. This technically makes me and orthodox but i dont feel it that way, so i doesn't really matter to me.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Convert, of course, and play along as long as necessary. You'd have to be an idiot to die because you believe your fairy tale is better than an armed and dangerous idiot's fairy tale.
 

AstroGuardian

Senior member
May 8, 2006
842
0
0
from what I understand as an Atheist they wouldn`t even ask you to convert...they would shoot you on the spot.....lolol

That is unless they already know that i am an atheist. I mean, it's not written on my forehead right?

Convert, of course, and play along as long as necessary. You'd have to be an idiot to die because you believe your fairy tale is better than an armed and dangerous idiot's fairy tale.

My words exactly but i didn't want to write that cause i thought i may hurt someone else's feelings. You are hard core bro.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
That is unless they already know that i am an atheist. I mean, it's not written on my forehead right?
no but if you were a practicing atheist people would know you were an atheists.....even atheists tell other people they are an atheist....or am I missing something?? You have no friends that know your an atheist??
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
no but if you were a practicing atheist people would know you were an atheists.....even atheists tell other people they are an atheist....or am I missing something?? You have no friends that know your an atheist??

A.....practicing atheist? lolwut? Do these people go to atheist church every monday afternoon and chug beer?
......sounds pretty fun, actually.....

on topic: obviously, 'convert' and GTFO
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
.....practicing atheist? lolwut? Do these people go to atheist church every monday afternoon and chug beer?
......sounds pretty fun, actually.....
OKAY ..a non practicing atheist.....either way still an atheist!!
 

AstroGuardian

Senior member
May 8, 2006
842
0
0
no but if you were a practicing atheist people would know you were an atheists.....even atheists tell other people they are an atheist....or am I missing something?? You have no friends that know your an atheist??

Yes i have friends that know i am an atheist. As a matter of fact i live in a place where religion is the excuse for scientific ignorance and all my friends know i am an atheist. But it is very unlikely that my orthodox friends will make me convert or behead me otherwise lol. I don't have Muslims for friends anyways and i don't plan on having.

btw, i have no idea what do you mean by practicing atheist but i never brag about it nor comment to them (my friends) about it. I keep it to my self and i let others believe in whatever.

I personally look at the religion as an evil and detrimental thing regarding human relations. IMHO religion should not exist and IMHO lack of it would solve so many problems in the world. But that just my opinion and i don't intend to make someone think like me. So please don't go flaming on me by default (kiss)
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
from what I understand as an Atheist they wouldn`t even ask you to convert...they would shoot you on the spot.....lolol

Yeah, that's so funny.

I was thinking the same thing. These religious folks claim to have the moral and ethical high ground, then have no trouble laughing it up at the thought of someone being murdered just because they don't share the same beliefs.

Much like their religious beliefs, their claim to have a moral and ethical backbone is just not real.

That, and he and others like him still act like they don't understand that atheism is not a religion. I don't know if they are sincere in their continued misunderstanding, but it makes for a really poor argument on their part.

Here's to hoping they get it someday.():)
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
That, and he and others like him still act like they don't understand that atheism is not a religion. I don't know if they are sincere in their continued misunderstanding, but it makes for a really poor argument on their part.
It really doesn`t matter to these people if Atheism is or is not a religion....
If they know you are atheist and they will trust me..they will just kill you...why?

Because if you convert they will know you are being phony!!