Contract-to-Hire Jobs

[clamum]

I'm looking for a new job and have come across one that's actually in the city I live in, and its requirements fit my experience quite well, but it's contract-to-hire.

I've always gotten direct hire jobs so I'm a bit leery of this one. I *think* the chances are good that most contract-to-hire positions end up as full time positions, unless you totally fuck something up, but that's just my guess.

Anyone ever get a contract-to-hire job and then get hired on full time? Or not? Just wondering if anyone else had any experience with them. This is a software development position, btw.

 

[Tweak155]

Yep, that is how I got my current role. Was contractor for ~2.5yrs before converting, but it wasn't because I couldn't have earlier... it was just that I wasn't ready based on how the dept was going.

I've had probably 3 or 4 contract positions over the years (in Detroit metro myself btw) and from my experience, they'll do what they can to keep a person as long as they're good. Otherwise it's see ya later at the end.

Usually you'll know up front if it's something long term or not, you just have to ask. The nice thing about contracting is you get to ask everything up front before any interviewing, including salary and benefits. My typical first email to a recruiter is "Which client is this role for (if it is not known) and what is the compensation range please?" I've never had someone respond without telling me.

 

[jpiniero]

From what I've read, not really. And it makes sense - in 2019 there's really no reason to use an Agency Recruiter for DH since you could just post a position on your company's website and get flooded with resumes. I wouldn't say don't do it but just treat it like an actual contract job and try to get enough to make up for the lack of benefits.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I keep getting recruitment emails and seeing this shit - 6 months, 9 months, 12 month contracts... I think I even saw one that 3 months.

I would have to be jobless and desperate to ever apply for such shit. I would hope after the typical corporate interview process of like... 3 interviews over the phone and 1 in-person that you would at least be comfortable hiring me.... The concept of going through all that and potentially be let go after the contract makes me laugh.

These people really are stupid, it's a great way to not get applications from very talented people.

 

[jpiniero]

These people really are stupid, it's a great way to not get applications from very talented people.

Very talented, no, but they aren't looking for that. Just competent enough to be able to do the job and save a ton of $$$ on no benefits.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Very talented, no, but they aren't looking for that. Just competent enough to be able to do the job and save a ton of $$$ on no benefits.

Most of them pay via salary w2 not 1099 from what the recruitment says, do they still avoid paying benefits on salary?

I mean if you're salary how do they go about not categorizing you as an employee ?

 

[jpiniero]

Most of them pay via salary w2 not 1099 from what the recruitment says, do they still avoid paying benefits on salary?

I mean if you're salary how do they go about not categorizing you as an employee ?

You're employed by the Agency and not from the company you are working for. It's hourly usually. The Agency technically offers benefits but you don't get any PTO or anything like that.

 

[brianmanahan]

i might give contract to hire jobs a try in the future

i think i'll be able to retire at 45, but might do a 3 or 6 month contract for some extra spending money

 

[Tweak155]

Seems like some ignorance going on in this thread. My last contract had benefits including 401k, 27 days PTO and medical. Not amazing, but it definitely beats some places that are direct. And they paid out the PTO when I converted to direct. It all depends on the contract and the company offering the position. Some are decent benefits, some are non existent. Some are 1099, some are w2. I've done 1099 no benefits, w2 no benefits and w2 with benefits.

If it lacks the benefits you shoot for a higher hourly rate... most of them will let you deny benefits for higher hourly rate if you want to even if they offer them. I can't recall one that didn't that I was interested in. This can actually be a benefit if you're covered under a spouse's medical.

Is it less ideal to be contract? Most likely. But to write them off without knowing the details of the position is pretty foolish. Get the details up front before applying, I tell the recruiter what salary I want (knowing their benefits ahead of time) and let them find a match. It can't hurt, worst case you just don't interview or find a position. Not much to lose other than an hour or so letting them know what you are looking to find, and they will buy the lunch

 

[jpiniero]

Seems like some ignorance going on in this thread. My last contract had benefits including 401k, 27 days PTO and medical. Not amazing, but it definitely beats some places that are direct.

That sounds like 1099 salaried, not what OP would be getting himself into.

The one good thing is that you likely wouldn't be forced to work unpaid overtime like most salaried are these days.

 

[Tweak155]

That sounds like 1099 salaried, not what OP would be getting himself into.

The one good thing is that you likely wouldn't be forced to work unpaid overtime like most salaried are these days.

What do you mean? It was w2 hourly. I got the choice of being paid the hours if I went over 40 or taking the time off.

Like I said, all depends on the details of the position, all of which you can get in one or 2 emails before even applying or interviewing

edit:

And it was listed as 7mos when I got it and I worked it for 2.5yrs like I mentioned before converting. The initial period listed has little impact as long as you don’t suck.

 

[purbeast0]

I've never done one myself but as a software developer, I have seen these listings often. I have just never pursued one because I've always wanted benefits from the get go, although I know some of them do offer that if the contract is like through an agency. You've probably heard of TekSystems being in the industry, and I had offers with them that were contract to hire like you are saying, but during the contract period I would have had benefits through TekSystems. It was kind of weird and I wasn't a big fan of it, but I never ended up taking a job like that.

Generally speaking these are just for the benefit of the company you are going to be doing work for. It's basically a "try before you buy" type of deal for the company so it's smart in their part. Bringing someone on board for 6 months with benefits, 401k, etc, only to realize that person sucks is much harder for a company to deal with than having someone on contract for 6 months and being able to just dump them with a sunk cost.

If you do take it, I would be interested in hearing about your experience with it.

 

[jpiniero]

What do you mean? It was w2 hourly. I got the choice of being paid the hours if I went over 40 or taking the time off.

That's what I mean, you would get paid overtime. Usually straight, but it's not like a salaried position where you wouldn't get anything for working more than 40 hours.

 

[jpiniero]

Bringing someone on board for 6 months with benefits, 401k, etc, only to realize that person sucks is much harder for a company to deal with than having someone on contract for 6 months and being able to just dump them with a sunk cost.

That's actually one of the other benefits of doing contractors - discrimination lawsuits, doing the PIP game, etc, aren't a factor since the worker isn't employed by the company. Means you don't really need HR anymore either, heh.

 

[purbeast0]

That's actually one of the other benefits of doing contractors - discrimination lawsuits, doing the PIP game, etc, aren't a factor since the worker isn't employed by the company. Means you don't really need HR anymore either, heh.

Yep. And in the software world, it can take even the best developers months to ramp up so it is just tough to tell good devs from bad devs in a short period of time some of the time. With contracts, you don't need to have a reason to not re-up the contract after it runs out.

 

[Tweak155]

That's what I mean, you would get paid overtime. Usually straight, but it's not like a salaried position where you wouldn't get anything for working more than 40 hours.

Yeah but with these types of positions, it’s dependent on who the contract is through. I could have hired into the position through another company and received a different package altogether. There is a lot more flexibility with contracting, but it comes with the “risk” of being let go at any time.

But as long as you don’t suck, the risk is minimal. I’ve not had a contract position willingly let me go and I’ve gone past all the initial advertised lengths.

You can also ask them to get more compensation approved ahead of interviewing as well.

 

[jpiniero]

But as long as you don’t suck, the risk is minimal. I’ve not had a contract position willingly let me go and I’ve gone past all the initial advertised lengths.

It's true that the lengths don't really mean much. One thing is that it seems very unlikely that you would get a raise, even a very basic COL adjustment.

 

[Tweak155]

It's true that the lengths don't really mean much. One thing is that it seems very unlikely that you would get a raise, even a very basic COL adjustment.

I got a 12% raise after my first year. Again not jaw dropping, but better than some.

Do you have any experience with this ?

 

[jpiniero]

Do you have any experience with this ?

I've done straight contract work before through agencies. But that's not surprising in 2019, it's so extremely popular.

I think the agencies play up the "To Hire" part thinking they can get the worker to agree to a much lower rate. If anything, it sounds like your experience is way out of the norm.

 

[Tweak155]

I've done straight contract work before through agencies. But that's not surprising in 2019, it's so extremely popular.

I think the agencies play up the "To Hire" part thinking they can get the worker to agree to a much lower rate. If anything, it sounds like your experience is way out of the norm.

I think it's all about pushing for what you expect is fair. Some of what I mentioned was after I negotiated for example (they offered me 17 days PTO, I asked for and got more for example), but nothing that would fall outside what I'd do for any job by asking for more.

As long as you're willing to push for more and stand up for your work / demand better, I don't think contracting is a bad route. I view it exactly as I do a direct hire position... been direct 4.5yrs now and push for more just like I did before this when I was contract at same company. Told them to promote me this past year or else I'd have to search for a better relationship with another company... Jan of this year I got promoted. Same crap, different compensation method

To summarize for OP:
1 - Get all the details up front. Most positions will offer multiple ways to be compensated, and sometimes the same position will be on the market by multiple recruiting companies with different benefits. I've not inquired into one where at least a couple options were not available - 1099, W2, W2 w/benefits (all at different rates). Some can also be salary but I've found it's not as common if you're already US based, it's more for those on work visas. But, I have had straight salary based contracts offered as well.

2 - Don't suck and it is low risk. There is still potential for the project funding your work to be cut, but even in those cases being a good worker will increase your chances of being moved to a funded project at the same company. Also, at my company where we hire tons of agency workers, it also greatly increases your chances of getting a warning ahead of time in the event we know you can't get placed elsewhere and a project is about to end unexpectedly

3 - If you require really solid benefits, it's probably not worth your time. But if you're flexible and view it from an overall dollar value of the compensation, it's very workable and sometimes advantageous. Like I mentioned before, though, you get all these details by asking before even applying. Just don't be shy about asking. I'm sure there are better packages out there than what I've seen, but the one I described that I received is the best I've come across personally. But, I haven't had extensive experience with contracting, just more years than some.

 

[jpiniero]

I think it's all about pushing for what you expect is fair.

Then you don't get the job and they'll just go on to the next person. In my experience the only thing you can negotiate is the rate and maybe intangible perks like WFH time.

And even the rate, there's a hard max which is usually extremely low. After all, the whole point of hiring a contractor instead of DH is to save money. There are actual project based contract jobs where you might get a decent rate out there, but C2H isn't it.

 

[Tweak155]

Then you don't get the job and they'll just go on to the next person. In my experience the only thing you can negotiate is the rate and maybe intangible perks like WFH time.

And even the rate, there's a hard max which is usually extremely low. After all, the whole point of hiring a contractor instead of DH is to save money. There are actual project based contract jobs where you might get a decent rate out there, but C2H isn't it.

Then how did I still get it? Why didn’t they just fire me after I told them either it’s a conversion or a rate increase and they gave me the 12%? You sound unsure of your quality of work if these are your concerns.

And now as someone who hires agency, I can confirm they are definitely not always cheaper (sometimes they cost way more actually).

What do you consider a low rate? I can’t imagine it’s a very high one if you’re afraid to ask for more.

 

[purbeast0]

Then you don't get the job and they'll just go on to the next person. In my experience the only thing you can negotiate is the rate and maybe intangible perks like WFH time.

And even the rate, there's a hard max which is usually extremely low. After all, the whole point of hiring a contractor instead of DH is to save money. There are actual project based contract jobs where you might get a decent rate out there, but C2H isn't it.

You clearly have no clue wtf you are talking about.

With software development it's kind of a different beast when it comes to productivity. It can very easily be the case where 1 developer making 2X in salary can get MUCH more done than paying 2 people X salary. Even though you are in theory having 2x the productivity, that doesn't mean anything if the skillset is much lower. You could even argue that having 2 people making X is WORSE because they can be a detriment to the project.

The saying "you get what you pay for" is a reality in software development. Although at the same time, you can also pay a lot for someone who sucks, so that is where it gets tricky. But chances are, if you are paying someone low, you aren't getting as good productivity as you could be paying someone more that is knowledgeable, because people who are good developers know their value and know they can get higher salaries.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You clearly have no clue wtf you are talking about.

With software development it's kind of a different beast when it comes to productivity. It can very easily be the case where 1 developer making 2X in salary can get MUCH more done than paying 2 people X salary. Even though you are in theory having 2x the productivity, that doesn't mean anything if the skillset is much lower. You could even argue that having 2 people making X is WORSE because they can be a detriment to the project.

The saying "you get what you pay for" is a reality in software development. Although at the same time, you can also pay a lot for someone who sucks, so that is where it gets tricky. But chances are, if you are paying someone low, you aren't getting as good productivity as you could be paying someone more that is knowledgeable, because people who are good developers know their value and know they can get higher salaries.

Believe me, definitely not limited to software development.

Consulting, implementation services, and niche things like SAP specialists are also very much a "you get what you pay for" atmosphere as well.

 

[jpiniero]

You clearly have no clue wtf you are talking about.

With software development it's kind of a different beast when it comes to productivity. It can very easily be the case where 1 developer making 2X in salary can get MUCH more done than paying 2 people X salary.

Companies don't seem to agree for the most part, or just don't care. Even Google's tech workforce is like half contractors now I hear. The cost savings are just too hard to resist.