Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[eikelbijter]

After being called out on being disrespectful and dishonest, you cannot even own up to it as an adult.

Sorry abj13, but reading all of this back you have been FAR more disrespectful than I have. I can't apologize for being wrong if I don't exactly understand why I'm wrong.

Now, I apologize for making wrong statements, of course! I certainly don't want to put words in others mouths, so if I've misrepresented what you said, I'm sorry! I've said from the beginning that I'm not a doctor, and even though you STILL haven't even confirmed you are, I don't have any reason to believe you're not.

That said, can you please answer my questions? So that I may become less ignorant?

 

[darkswordsman17]

2016 election taught me you cannot ignore that behavior. Google with all its search logarithms likes to display content people are talking about. Yes challenging a bullshit peddler help but at minimum the standard is set for the bullshit peddler as opposed to letting it sit and simmer.

Who said ignore?

Also, I disagree with your method. That's exactly how the bullshit peddler works, they say vaguely bullshit things to get exposure, then they ratchet up the bullshit when given the opportunity. So you ignore the bullshit peddler, but you don't ignore the bullshit. Focusing on the peddler just lets them peddle bullshit basically endlessly and helps them spread it.

Trust me, you don't gain anything by addressing such dogshit as that poster. So you notice the dogshit and you sidestep it, then if you really want to bothered by it you can clean it up, but chances are you're not really gonna do much to stop the person letting their dog shit.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Ah hell, I forgot step 5 which is to just resort to quibbling the most minor nonsensical aspect. Which is where we are now. And just like that pages wasted because you people keep letting the clowns run through their routine.

 

[abj13]

Sorry abj13, but reading all of this back you have been FAR more disrespectful than I have. I can't apologize for being wrong if I don't exactly understand why I'm wrong.

Now, I apologize for making wrong statements, of course! I certainly don't want to put words in others mouths, so if I've misrepresented what you said, I'm sorry! I've said from the beginning that I'm not a doctor, and even though you STILL haven't even confirmed you are, I don't have any reason to believe you're not.

That said, can you please answer my questions? So that I may become less ignorant?

"If you've misrepresented?" Really? After being told how dishonest you are, you cannot even own up to it and take responsibility. That has to be the phoniest attempt of an apology I've seen from a non-child. You don't even own up to it. In fact, your false allegations about me remain posted. Then you try to place some amount of blame me for your dishonesty. From the very moment you started posting from this thread, you purposely disrespected some of the most valued posters around here including fskimospy and several others I hold in very high regard.

If anyone would have believe you had an ounce of integrity, you should have stuck to your word as posted in post 559, and not posted again in this thread.

 

[abj13]

Ah hell, I forgot step 5 which is to just resort to quibbling the most minor nonsensical aspect. Which is where we are now. And just like that pages wasted because you people keep letting the clowns run through their routine.

Wasn't there a point in time a rule was set in place to prevent shit peddlers that was actually enforced? I must be getting old, my memory is getting fuzzy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Again, please help me understand instead of just putting me down.

What does "having immunity" mean exactly? How is it defined?

I enjoy the practice of jousting at windmills.

'having immunity' means the human immune system has a record of a given virus, and has the ability to create some kind of antibody to fight it. You still get infected, but your body can kill it generally before it kills you. If you do not have an immunity, your body has to 'fabricate' the 'template' to the antibody before it can start creating the antibodies, during which time it's fucking your shit up.

COVID is pretty good at absolutely wrecking a pretty solid percentage of the human population before it can generate antibodies. In addition, it appears that the delta variant can reproduce exceptionally fast, before even an immune person's response has a chance to kill it off.

 

[woolfe9998]

Haven’t read all is this discussion because I don’t need to. For the layperson this is quite simple. You do what the damn experts tell you to do, or risk your own health and the health of others. Anything that laypeople tell you on social media that is at variance with a consensus opinion of experts is irrelevant.

This thread reminds of various discussions of climate change where we see the highly amusing spectacle of people pretending to understand things they know nothing about. Pouring through data they do not understand in an attempt to convince people that reality differs from what we’re being told by the people with years of education and experience.

Isn’t it great that the internet gives everyone a platform to say whatever they want and reach lots of people? Sure! But there’s a big qualifier here: just because you can now say whatever you want doesn’t mean your speech has value to anyone but yourself.

TLDR: we have real experts on things like medicine and climatology. We don’t need fake ones.

 

[cytg111]

It is based on my assumption, and yes we can argue about that part, that Delta gets past SO many vaccinated people that we can't truly protect others by vaccinating ourselves. In that case, I think people should be able to take risks with their own lives.

I think your drive for this nightmare to be over is clouding your judgement.
So lets assume for a second that this is correct:
1. Vaccines "only" offer 88% protection from Delta
2. One in eight vaccinated will have a breakthrough infection of Delta
3. A breakthrough case is spreading just like an unvaccinated infection.

What I still dont know is
1. Is it a subset of vaccinated that is prone to breakthrough infections? Or is everybody vaccinated in the lottery?
2. Recovering from a breakthrough infection what is my odds from getting another breakthrough infection?

You see, there is an outcome in the sample space here where the 12% vaccinated have a mild breakthrough case and is then just as immune as the other 88%... Still no dead and all them other people now protected.

But we dont know yet. So man up soldier, hold the line and get the shot(s) .

 

[eikelbijter]

"If you've misrepresented?" Really? After being told how dishonest you are, you cannot even own up to it and take responsibility. That has to be the phoniest attempt of an apology I've seen from a non-child. You don't even own up to it. In fact, your false allegations about me remain posted. Then you try to place some amount of blame me for your dishonesty. From the very moment you started posting from this thread, you purposely disrespected some of the most valued posters around here including fskimospy and several others I hold in very high regard.

If anyone would have believe you had an ounce of integrity, you should have stuck to your word as posted in post 559, and not posted again in this thread.

I most certainly was completely wrong when I wrote

"Who exactly are YOU, some anonymous guy on a COMPUTER forum, that you KNOW for a fact they are useless? In my other post, when I say we don't know the end of it, I mean that we don't KNOW all the specifics about the immune system at large and to pretend we do is quite arrogant. "

At that point I should have known that you were eminently knowledgeable, that much is clear now. At that point, now that I'm reading it all back again, the name-calling had gotten pretty intense, and I got way more cocky than I should have.

It's clear I said some very stupid things and insulted people in a relatively small and tight-knit forum, not some stupid social media BS. I truly want to apologize for that and assure you it wasn't the goal, and that I will do my best to not do it again.

Honestly, I do want to learn, I hope my persistence helps me with my case. I want to understand as much as I can, been trying to learn in the downtime that this pandemic has brought me. I want to say that I want to thank you for all the great info and knowledge you DID share with me so far. Obviously the things I THINK I learned from it are not right, but hopefully you will help me with some questions.

 

[allisolm]

That said, can you please answer my questions? So that I may become less ignorant?

No one is required to answer your questions. They did it before and you ignored the answers. Now I don't think anyone cares about the extent of your ignorance. So, if no one is interested in answering your questions, you'll have to go find the answers on your own.

 

[eikelbijter]

No one is required to answer your questions. They did it before and you ignored the answers. Now I don't think anyone cares about the extent of your ignorance. So, if no one is interested in answering your questions, you'll have to go find the answers on your own.

You are right, no one is required.

 

[eikelbijter]

I think your drive for this nightmare to be over is clouding your judgement.
So lets assume for a second that this is correct:
1. Vaccines "only" offer 88% protection from Delta
2. One in eight vaccinated will have a breakthrough infection of Delta
3. A breakthrough case is spreading just like an unvaccinated infection.

What I still dont know is
1. Is it a subset of vaccinated that is prone to breakthrough infections? Or is everybody vaccinated in the lottery?
2. Recovering from a breakthrough infection what is my odds from getting another breakthrough infection?

You see, there is an outcome in the sample space here where the 12% vaccinated have a mild breakthrough case and is then just as immune as the other 88%... Still no dead and all them other people now protected.

But we dont know yet. So man up soldier, hold the line and get the shot(s) .

Thank you for this. May I draw the conclusion from this that there is a "level" to immunity, that it is not a binary thing?

How certain are you of that 88% number? Could it be that a naive person that is vaccinated has a higher chance of reinfection than an inoculated person with previous natural infection? Could that explain the difference between data from UK and Israel, because in the latter the attack rate was much lower (or is it smaller) when vaccination kicked it?

I think one of the reasons this has gotten so heated is that it became political. Obviously there are political consequence to many of these topics. I can assure you, Trump is one of my least favorite people in the world, I care about my fellow citizens and want to base decisions on being as close to the facts as I can. I'm not afraid to talk about politics though, though I would really love to start from the beginning and learn more about the science than I can learn from the NYTimes or through arbitrary googling of studies. Again, I truly appreciate all the help I've been giving, and assure you, you can call me any names you want, I can handle it.

 

[cytg111]

Thank you for this. May I draw the conclusion from this that there is a "level" to immunity, that it is not a binary thing?

How certain are you of that 88% number? Could it be that a naive person that is vaccinated has a higher chance of reinfection than an inoculated person with previous natural infection? Could that explain the difference between data from UK and Israel, because in the latter the attack rate was much lower (or is it smaller) when vaccination kicked it?

I think one of the reasons this has gotten so heated is that it became political. Obviously there are political consequence to many of these topics. I can assure you, Trump is one of my least favorite people in the world, I care about my fellow citizens and want to base decisions on being as close to the facts as I can. I'm not afraid to talk about politics though, though I would really love to start from the beginning and learn more about the science than I can learn from the NYTimes or through arbitrary googling of studies. Again, I truly appreciate all the help I've been giving, and assure you, you can call me any names you want, I can handle it.

Yea that is a possibility I think.. But we are talking about data points before they get processed by our finest and greatest minds in the field. I cant possibly draw any valid conclusion from these speculations.

And yes, its extremely political, I also think that is why it got derailed here as fast as it did, we have some die hard Trumpers here that will pitch something similar but with the ulterior motive not of truth but ~party line.

 

[blackangst1]

Haven’t read all is this discussion because I don’t need to. For the layperson this is quite simple. You do what the damn experts tell you to do, or risk your own health and the health of others. Anything that laypeople tell you on social media that is at variance with a consensus opinion of experts is irrelevant.

This thread reminds of various discussions of climate change where we see the highly amusing spectacle of people pretending to understand things they know nothing about. Pouring through data they do not understand in an attempt to convince people that reality differs from what we’re being told by the people with years of education and experience.

Isn’t it great that the internet gives everyone a platform to say whatever they want and reach lots of people? Sure! But there’s a big qualifier here: just because you can now say whatever you want doesn’t mean your speech has value to anyone but yourself.

TLDR: we have real experts on things like medicine and climatology. We don’t need fake ones.

The issue is there is medical experts (i.e. Doctors)that say opposing things. Who do you believe? Please don't say Dr Fauci.

 

[cytg111]

The issue is there is medical experts (i.e. Doctors)that say opposing things. Who do you believe? Please don't say Dr Fauci.

See? Thats how they got Clinton too. Some of the Fox propaganda bullshit filters through.
What is your issue with Fauci?

 

[blankslate]

Fauci is not the only Dr. who has dealt with Covid or treated patients. I would guess that is an issue for some.

As for me I try to refrain from only paying attention to one expert.


_______________

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The issue is there is medical experts (i.e. Doctors)that say opposing things. Who do you believe? Please don't say Dr Fauci.

If we remove the marginally qualified doctors to speak about this stuff like Dr. Drew who was a Doctor at one time but now is more of a personality or Dr Rand Paul who to my knowledge hast practiced his eye doctor trade which I am unable to spell and the various YouTube Doctors whom I am suspicious of. Doctors shouldn’t need lead generation pipelines. I understand they get rated on outcomes and that partially determines their pay so the unspoken thing is Doctors don’t like fatties and unhealthy people ruining their performance metrics maybe I could imagine a Dr using YouTube to reach younger healthier people. Long rant so simply put I don’t trust YouTube Doctors or bankers or unqualified news people.
Basically setting aside all the oddballs nearly all Doctors agree with avoid big crowds, keep your distance, get vaccinated and don’t do stupid stuff like believe your blood type is immune or some of the other non sense. Also accept things change as we learn more. Masks are a great example. Early on the belief was masks don’t work unless they are medical grade and worn perfectly. Basically normal people are too dirty & dumb to figure it out. Then places in Asia who mask a lot appeared to be doing better. When it is an emergency you don’t need to understand why it works you just need to know it works.
Sorry for the long rambling post simple version below:
Practicing qualified real Doctors agree on just about everything we all bicker about
Things change and we all need to adapt or not be butt hurt we washed our hands extra for a few months.

 

[Bitek]

It is based on my assumption, and yes we can argue about that part, that Delta gets past SO many vaccinated people that we can't truly protect others by vaccinating ourselves. In that case, I think people should be able to take risks with their own lives.

Jesus Christ this is dumb.

Not at all what the data, the CDC, or the morgue is saying.

You're obviously not vaccinated, and you are daring covid to rid us if your stupidity.

 

[woolfe9998]

The issue is there is medical experts (i.e. Doctors)that say opposing things. Who do you believe? Please don't say Dr Fauci.

I don’t need to supply individual names. This isn’t about Fauci or any one person. There is a broad consensus among medical experts , both on the clinical side and on the research side regarding both the safety and efficacy of the Covid vaccines. Every medical organization, be it governmental or NGO, recommends the vaccines.

There’s always a few people with MD”s who use their credentials to promote bunk. Almost always because they’re hawking placebos online for filthy lucre.

Your comment is no different than the people who made such a huge deal out of the 3% of climate researchers who questioned the consensus on climate change. The same 3% who are now largely irrelevant as climate deniers have moved in to other arguments.

If you have a credible source, please link it.

 

[pmv]

The issue is there is medical experts (i.e. Doctors)that say opposing things. Who do you believe? Please don't say Dr Fauci.

Even though I'm suspicious whether you are making that point in good faith, I have to admit I do think that is often an issue.

In some fields there seem to be just too many experts, and media outlets with agendas can find a seemingly-qualified 'expert' to say whatever they want to hear. Then us laypeople have to try and work out which expert to believe. Which is exhausting and seems to rather undermine the whole purpose of having 'experts'. (I mean, what's the point, if we all have to take graduate-level courses in a topic just to understand enough to work out which expert in it is credible?)

I don't, however, see what is wrong with picking the one with the highest professional status, i.e. Fauci.

 

[woolfe9998]

Even though I'm suspicious whether you are making that point in good faith, I have to admit I do think that is often an issue.

In some fields there seem to be just too many experts, and media outlets with agendas can find a seemingly-qualified 'expert' to say whatever they want to hear. Then us laypeople have to try and work out which expert to believe. Which is exhausting and seems to rather undermine the whole purpose of having 'experts'. (I mean, what's the point, if we all have to take graduate-level courses in a topic just to understand enough to work out which expert in it is credible?)

I don't, however, see what is wrong with picking the one with the highest professional status, i.e. Fauci.

No, just no. This has nothing to do with weighing the credibility of Fauci versus some hack they paid to appear on Fox News. The World Health Organization, CDC, FDA, Royal College of Physicians,AMA. Every government public health org and NGO strongly recommends that people be vaccinated against Covid.

Do not buy into his fallacy that this is somehow about the credibility of one or two people. Pretending there is no consensus is straight out of the climate deniers playbook, all over again now with Covid.

 

[pmv]

No, just no. This has nothing to do with weighing the credibility of Fauci versus some hack they paid to appear on Fox News. The World Health Organization, CDC, FDA, Royal College of Physicians,AMA. Every government public health org and NGO strongly recommends that people be vaccinated against Covid.

Do not buy into his fallacy that this is somehow about the credibility of one or two people. Pretending there is no consensus is straight out of the climate deniers playbook, all over again now with Covid.

Well you miss my point, slightly. I wasn't referring to the question of vaccinations, just to a much more general irritation with how 'expertise' is treated. I'm fully on-board with vaccinations for COVID, but I do get irritated by the cacophony of confident-yet-incompatible pronouncements from experts on a variety of issues. E.g. what we heard early on about how to approach this pandemic. How many times did I hear people pointing at the Swedish 'experts' in support of claims there was no need for any sort of lockdown?
Even with the vaccines I'm pretty sure I remember some experts telling me at the start of the pandemic that the vaccines wouldn't be ready for years.

 

[eikelbijter]

Yea that is a possibility I think.. But we are talking about data points before they get processed by our finest and greatest minds in the field. I cant possibly draw any valid conclusion from these speculations.

And yes, its extremely political, I also think that is why it got derailed here as fast as it did, we have some die hard Trumpers here that will pitch something similar but with the ulterior motive not of truth but ~party line.

Thanks again for treating me like an adult, I really appreciate it. I really do hate where this has gone, and want to make it right. I don't want to remove my posts, if nothing else, because I'd like to go back in the future and see how some of the things we've discussed have panned out, or even for future "eikelbijters" to be able to learn from my inappropriate hubris.

What I do want to do is correct the post(s) where I claim incorrectly that someone else on this forum agrees with my statements. If you have any suggestions please let me know the post number and I'll fix it.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and hope I may ask you questions in the future. I assure you, I have no ulterior motive.

 

[Jaskalas]

TLDR: we have real experts on things like medicine and climatology. We don’t need fake ones.

Whoa man, let's not be too hasty. The internet can still be used for cat pictures.

Aside from that, yes. Humanity appears to use it to spread propaganda, and it is EXTREMELY effective. Human minds have little to no protection. It is simply absorbed and believed. Alex Jones is an expert to far too many people. This avenue of communication is killing people, this pandemic is proof of that.

 

[eikelbijter]

Even more disturbing is the fact that someone is claiming I said something to support his points. Nowhere are my posts actually quoted. I request the person claiming I said such things delete those posts, because I have never said such a statement (e.g. "even mild Covid infection will regularly create lifelong immunity to #19.").

Please tell me the post numbers you want me to change and I will correct them, making clear that you don't agree with me, and even that I had falsely previously suggested you did if you want.

You surely have better things to do, so I will go over all the posts again and make sure I'm not insinuating ANY approval from you for any of my statements.

Again, please accept my apologies for putting words in your mouth. I want to make this right.