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Consumer Warning - Thermal Grease

M

MrThompson

Senior member
Out of curiosity, I picked up a couple of tubes of "silver" thermal compound at Comp USA. Comp USA's own brand and Antech's latest. There is something funny going on here that I don't think the unsuspecting consumer is going to laugh about.

The Antech compound states that it contains 75% to 80% silver with a net weight of 3 grams. I noticed that the Antech tube felt considerably lighter than a fresh tube of Arctic Silver 3, so I weighed them. Even though they use the same syringe and contain the same volume of thermal compound, the Antech weighs almost a gram less than the Arctic Silver. If the content of the Antech syringe weighs that much less than Arctic Silver, it cannot contain the 75% to 80% silver with a net weight of 3 grams as stated on the label. Furthermore, the Antech grease has a very light gray color, only slightly darker than Arctic Alumina. I seriously doubt that the Antech grease is what Antech claims.

The Comp USA brand compound is another conundrum. The label states a silver content of 85% to 90%. It comes in the same syringe as the Titan and Stars 700 silver greases. Wonder of wonders, it has the same volume and weighs the same too. The Titan silver grease claims a silver content of 10% while the Stars 700 label states a silver content of 25%. If the three tubes weigh the same, obviously the Comp USA thermal compound cannot have a silver content of 85% to 90%. The Titan, the Stars 700 and the Comp USA grease all look and feel the same. Further evidence that something funny is going on.

I don't think a manufacturer the size of Antech and a major retailer like Comp USA would do this intentionally, so maybe they got duped by their suppliers. Still the evidence is convincing that something is amiss. There is no way these compounds can contain the material stated on the labels. Buyer beware
 
this is why i dont buy that crap... only ASII and ASIII, and if i do go cheap, i buy only the white paste where i know its cheap and i know how well it works.

good heads up though TY!
 
You can get artic silver 3 at svc for $6.99 shipped. I got mine in 2 days after I placed the order.
 


<< You can get artic silver 3 at svc for $6.99 shipped. I got mine in 2 days after I placed the order. >>



yep. svcompucycle.com... $6.99 + free shipping. if you can get 20 applications out of it, thats only $0.35 per application. 35 cents is well worth the extra cooling.
 
Nevin posts here and you can ask him how he tests for longevity and thermal conductivity and I am pretty sure he will tell you. I like buying from someone who stands firmly behind their product. I personally don't know anything about these other "premium" thermal compounds or the testing that has gone into them, but I know that I trust Arctic Silver. I am not sure I would trust my overclock (or stock systems) to anything else right now.

After seeing the "new and improved" thermal compound from Radio Shack dry from the heat of my T-bird in around 6 hours (or less as I didn't notice the instability til I came back to my computer).

I have put together some systems with the stock coolers and pads, but usually only when its going to someone I don't know well and I want the 3-year warranty to back me up. (I don't violate warranties and then try to send back damaged parts - it's just not ethical). All other systems get Arctic Silver. I am running Arctic Alumina on my 1.6A right now (wasn't sure it was ok to get silver into the contraction/expansion hole on the heat spreader). At 142fsb (2.27ghz) and my watercooler, it is hitting 37C max. I am happy...........😀
 
I'm surprised that a company like Antech would sell something that they are not 100% sure is what they say it is. Not only is it morally wrong, but could also mean lawsuits and jail time. About the weight, I'm sure that you are assuming the syringes and labels weight the same. Is that a correct assumption? I do not know since I haven't seen the products you speak off. Instead of infering on silver contents you might want to actually take the densities of the compounds (lbs/gallon), since you already bought them, and compare them to each other and to actual silver. This will give you some real data to back your observations instead of relying on you subjectiveness. Subjective views are scewed and biased most of the time (that is human nature), but pure data is objective.
 
Good points Richardito. I verified the content of the Antech syringe was 2.4 grams. What follows is a post I made at Hard Forums to answer some of their concerns.

OK, time for a math lesson.

The specific gravity of silver is 10.5 and silicone is 0.95. Let's give
Antech the benefit of the doubt and assume only 75% silver content. 2.4
grams * 75% silver = 1.8 grams of silver. 1.8 grams silver / 10.5
(specific gravity of silver) = 0.17 cc of silver. 2.4 grams * 25%
silicone = 0.6 grams of silicone. 0.6 grams silicone / 0.95 (specific
gravity of silicone) = 0.66cc of silicone. 0.17cc of silver + 0.66 cc of
silicone = .83 cc of volume. If there is over 1 cc in the syringe (and
there is, I measure approximately 1.1cc to 1.2cc), where did the other .17+
cc come from?

A compound with 75% silver will have a specific gravity of approximately
3.0. The Antech compound has a specific gravity of less than 2.4. (Actually
about 2.2) The only way to get that lower specific gravity is with less
silver (below 60%) or a lighter material in place of the silver, for
example aluminum oxide (specific gravity 3.3) or zinc oxide (specific
gravity 5.6) or even boron nitride (specific gravity 2.2).

Suggestions that the weight vs volume discrepancy is due to the inclusion
of other ingredients in addition to the silver fail to take into account
that these other ingredients, either metallic or ceramic, would be heavier
than the silicone that they would have to replace in the percentage break
down (since the silver is specified at 75%+ they can not take its place) so
they would only increase the specific gravity of the compound above 3.0 not
lower it to the 2.2 range of the actual compound.

Interestingly the specific gravity does correspond with the numbers for
common zinc oxide thermal grease.

I hope this help illustrate why I am concerned.
 
You're assuming that the material is somehow anhydrous. If you want to talk about specific gravity, you need to use something akin to a picnometer to get the actual measured SG of the substance and then go from there...
 
The materials in thermal grease are anhydrous. Water in a thermal grease is a recipe for disaster.

Not to belabor the issue (since I'm a chemist), but unless you got that stuff in some dessicator with some drying agent (eg., phosphorus pentoxide or something), as soon as it hits the air, it's going to absorb moisture from it.. 😉

I don't think measuring the amount of silver in a mixture such as that based on specific gravity is going to be helpful or accurate at all. If anything, even sticking a solution of the stuff in an AA will give you a better idea of the metal content in there.
 
First, the Antech compound would have to absorb about 20% water to meet the specified weight and this would raise the volume. The weight of the compound does not match up with the volume. The weight for volume does match up with common zinc oxide thermal grease. Then there is the color issue. If the compound contained the specified quantity of silver, it would be silver instead of a very light gray.

Poof, I don't have access to the equipment that you have. If you like, email your address to me and I will send you a fresh tube of Antech goop, sealed in the package for analysis.


 
I will email you from my home address. I am curious myself and have been asking around for what might be the best way to get the beloved patriot into solution (possibly heat and shake to dissolve, cool, extract with some ether, maybe centrifuge to separate, then the metals should be in the aqueous layer, acidify, and try running on an AA - this is what we've done with creams/pastes generally). We have analyzed metals in creams before (Desitin is one, which is zinc oxide BTW), so I'll see if I can find some method to do this. I have both AS (original formulation) and AS III at home to try as well. No AS II though... 😉
 


<< I will email you from my home address. I am curious myself and have been asking around for what might be the best way to get the beloved patriot into solution (possibly heat and shake to dissolve, cool, extract with some ether >>




I think all thermal grease are based on mineral oil or silicone oil. Both of which are soluble in many non-polar solvents. I'd use heptane as a solvent since it's boiling point is neither too high nor too low.

Here's what I'd do.

Pick a container that can withstand high temperature petroleum solvent. Measure and record it's weight precisely.

Add thermal compound to the container and weigh it.

in a fume hood, add generous amount of pet. ether heated to ~80°C

stir with glass rod until completely dissolved.

The second part depends on if silver particles can be will settle down or not.

If it does:

simply pour off most of solvent plus silicone oil mixture into another container of known weight.

Add more heptane and wash the remaining silver and let it settle again. Pour the solvent into the same container you poured into in the previous step.

Let the solvent evaporate from silver remains and measure the weight(total - container weight you recorded earlier)

weight of silver / total weight x 100=silver content by percent.

If you want, you can drive off heptane from the portion you washed out so you can confirm that silicone oil+silver reside equals total weight.


if it doesn't

use centrifuge before using the above process.



Ofcourse all the safety precautions apply. Heptane is flammable and if you are dumb enough to realize this and your lab goes kaboom it's not my fault.


I think it should work.





, maybe centrifuge to separate, then the metals should be in the aqueous layer, acidify, and try running on an AA - this is what we've done with creams/pastes generally). We have analyzed metals in creams before (Desitin is one, which is zinc oxide BTW), so I'll see if I can find some method to do this. I have both AS (original formulation) and AS III at home to try as well. No AS II though... 😉[/i] >>

 
Only prob with what you suggest for settling out of the metal is if there's zinc in there, then that would settle out with the silver. Somehow you'd need to quantitate the silver content only.

[EDIT: BTW, hard drive full... brain fried now...lol. 😛]
 


<< Good points Richardito. I verified the content of the Antech syringe was 2.4 grams. What follows is a post I made at Hard Forums to answer some of their concerns.

OK, time for a math lesson.

The specific gravity of silver is 10.5 and silicone is 0.95. Let's give
Antech the benefit of the doubt and assume only 75% silver content. 2.4
grams * 75% silver = 1.8 grams of silver. 1.8 grams silver / 10.5
(specific gravity of silver) = 0.17 cc of silver. 2.4 grams * 25%
silicone = 0.6 grams of silicone. 0.6 grams silicone / 0.95 (specific
gravity of silicone) = 0.66cc of silicone. 0.17cc of silver + 0.66 cc of
silicone = .83 cc of volume. If there is over 1 cc in the syringe (and
there is, I measure approximately 1.1cc to 1.2cc), where did the other .17+
cc come from?

A compound with 75% silver will have a specific gravity of approximately
3.0. The Antech compound has a specific gravity of less than 2.4. (Actually
about 2.2) The only way to get that lower specific gravity is with less
silver (below 60%) or a lighter material in place of the silver, for
example aluminum oxide (specific gravity 3.3) or zinc oxide (specific
gravity 5.6) or even boron nitride (specific gravity 2.2).

Suggestions that the weight vs volume discrepancy is due to the inclusion
of other ingredients in addition to the silver fail to take into account
that these other ingredients, either metallic or ceramic, would be heavier
than the silicone that they would have to replace in the percentage break
down (since the silver is specified at 75%+ they can not take its place) so
they would only increase the specific gravity of the compound above 3.0 not
lower it to the 2.2 range of the actual compound.

Interestingly the specific gravity does correspond with the numbers for
common zinc oxide thermal grease.

I hope this help illustrate why I am concerned. >>



That is all good, but if you didn't used a properly calibrated wt/gal cup the error margin will be huge.
 


<< Only prob with what you suggest for settling out of the metal is if there's zinc in there, then that would settle out with the silver. Somehow you'd need to quantitate the silver content only.

[EDIT: BTW, hard drive full... brain fried now...lol. 😛] >>




Option 1(easier):Add hydrochloric acid and let it dissove zinc, then wash the remaining. This is not going to remove copper, so if there's copper, you'll have errors in the result and you should follow through to the second option.

Option 2(requires expensive analysis): add nitric acid and dissolve all solid. You'll have a solution of nitrates of metals. Follow through on qualitative analysis by mass spectrometry and quantative analysis through gas chromatography. GS/MS combo system is preferred.

 
eww chemistry

how about weight an empty tube, and weigh a full tube and subtract. or maybe they mean 3 grams including the tube, but that'd be lame huh.
 
I think it's funny how people will go to the lengths of a laboratory analysis. Why don't you just use the Antech goop, record the temperatures your computer runs at, then switch to Arctic Silver III, and record the temperatures on the same computer in the same 10 minutes (So ambient temp doesn't change dramatically).

Then post that both tubes ran with the same temperatures and that the whole fuss about which one had a pinch more silver doesn't matter. (Which can still vary due to the different % stated on each bottle)

What if you are right, and the antech contains less silver, but performs better than the arctic silver? Arn't we running the wrong type of tests?
 


<< Good points Richardito. I verified the content of the Antech syringe was 2.4 grams. >>



Using what? The rule of thumb is to use a balance with a resolution at least ten times the resolution you want. If you want to get it accurate to 100mg, you need to use a balance with resolution of 10mg, accuracy +-20mg or so, linearity and repeatability +-10mg. Those all plastic simple balance from a science kit is most likely not good enough.

 
Option 2(requires expensive analysis): add nitric acid and dissolve all solid. You'll have a solution of nitrates of metals. Follow through on qualitative analysis by mass spectrometry and quantative analysis through gas chromatography. GS/MS combo system is preferred.

No need for GC/MS. Just quantitate with an AA (Atomic Absorption Spectrometer). That's mainly what it's for. METALS. You set it for absorption and get yerself a silver CRT, run your standards, plot them, run the sample, and quantitate. That way, you don't have the big intereference problem between the metals because only the Ag will respond at the specific wavelength(s) you set.

XFreebie - LOL! 😛

HouRman - I agree to an extent. I guess my point is in reference to the original post in that you can't solely use a qualitative comparison between materials based on the physical properties of them (consistency, color, etc), as verification for whether something that is labeled quantitatively, is accurate or not. Not that I don't personally believe that a "generic" is more than likely not up to snuff per se, I still can't make that claim unless I quantitatively verify it. The test you suggest won't really settle the issue either (assuming the issue is labeling rather than how well the material works). If you put the HS on correctly with the Antec stuff, and then inadvertantly rush putting it back on with some AS III for the 2nd test (and/or put too much/too little AS on the core), then you might conclude that the Antec goop is better than AS.

I have read alot of Nevin's, et al's comments over the past year or so, both here in this forum and in the Cooling forum, covering issues about thermal pastes and especially heatsinks, and the controversy over shims, etc. If a hobbyist is serious about their hobby, then they will do a little research before choosing a 3rd party thermal paste. For the average non-OCer (and in some cases, the small OCer), the stock thermal pads are perfectly fine.

I expect that if anything, following the credos "Caveat Emptor" is prudent and applicable for everything. 🙂
 
If you want to get it accurate to 100mg, you need to use a balance with resolution of 10mg, accuracy +-20mg or so, linearity and repeatability +-10mg. Those all plastic simple balance from a science kit is most likely not good enough.

Get a Cahn balance!!!!!!! LOL! 😛
 
I used a triple beam balance. Performance of the Antech is on par with the better zinc oxide pastes. Here is a photo for your viewing pleasure. From left to right, Silmore zinc oxide, Antech Silver Reference, Arctic Silver II and Arctic Silver 3.
 
I have to agree with HouRman, its funny how curiosity can get the best of you, when it?s the performance of the compound that is truly important (Although I am curious about the %s myself).

Poof, Just curious, do you have a flame or a graphite furnace AA and if both which are you thinking of using? (More of an NMR guy myself)

Somewhat off topic, has anyone used that Type44 compound? It doesn?t seem to be that readily available?
 
StrongForce - you mean you aren't curious yerself???? 😛

We have a flame one. The good ole torch. 😀 Interestingly, we had one a long ago that had an FTIR detector rigged onto it...

I used to be the monitor for the old one way back - a Perkin-Elmer, one of the first computerized jobbies (had the software on a 360K floppy...lol). I loved doing emission stuff using the nitrous oxide. That flame had a sound that you would never forget. Yes, I know I am weird. 😛

What's wild is that about a year before I started working here, the guy who used to be my sup, was using it while it had a clogged burner and needless to say, the stories abound about the thing blowing up in his face and everyone in the area having to go get hearing tests afterwards! :Q

And about NMR... gosh... my senior year in college I took took Theoretical Inorganic Chemistry (I don't know why... arrrgggg - mostly because I had to take something to fulfill the requirement and that's the only thing that would fit into my schedule). The whole semester, we did nothing BUT NMR... Phosphorus NMR, Fluorine NMR, blah blah! :Q And there was no lab to the class either! 🙁 😉

 
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