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consulting vs fulltime (programming)

DJFuji

Diamond Member
Started doing consulting for ASP/SQL/.NET. Company wants to extend contract for another 6 months but i'm getting offers from other companies for full time positions. Consulting is roughly 40/hourly while full time offers are coming in at 70k yearly plus benefits. I could renegotiate consulting fees to closer to 50/hourly now that i have bargaining power, but i'm still not sure that it's worth it.

For those who have been in this position, what did you do? What must the consulting jobs offer to make it worthwhile to pass up a full time position with benefits and security? I'm thinking that if they offer at least 55-60/hourly plus benefits and a 1-2 year contract, it might be worth it. What do you think?
 
When you mean 'consulting' what do you 'actually' do? Just wondering as I'm applying for consultancy jobs at co mpanies also. Start at the bottom and they train me up and that is if I get pass all the interviews and tests and group stuff they give me 😛

Koing
 
Usually it means I come in to fix their problems and offer solutions. It's not entry level stuff- that's generally interns. The organizations usually send me to a few interviews to see if i would fit their needs and if i know my stuff. If so, they hire me to develop solutions for them, usually programming-based. i.e. i'm developing an application right now that pulls in raw election data from an external server, parses through it and extracts pertinent data, formats it, and then throws it into a live TV feed for news broadcast coverage.
 
It sounds like we're in somewhat similar positions. I started consulting about 4.5 years ago under the guise of another company, and I incorporated a little over a year ago. To me, your rate seems low, especially if you're getting offers for $70k/yr; $40/hr after taxes really doesn't go that far. If you're able to deduct part of your vehicle and your home, then that helps.

I pass up full-time jobs for a few reasons: I depise the corporate environment, and I love my freedom more than anything fathomable. I love working from home, and I don't believe I'd be able to go back. I also love the opportunity to advance a company, network with people, build relationships, and build a business. If any of those goals sound familiar, then I would stick it out in consulting.

$55-$60/hr for two years is an excellent contract, imo. I would sign off on a contract like that provided that it was on a corp-to-corp basis and not strictly 1099/W2. I would also stipulate the schedule, because as a consultant you can't exactly ignore your other clients.

PM me if you'd like to talk more 🙂
 
I'd take a full time job with benefits any day over consulting ever again. I did consulting for a few years and it was just too frustrating. Good work and pay one year and not so great the next, or even worse it was month to month. I'm much much happier at a full time job. I work less hours, have a lot less headaches, and never have to worry about looking for the "next" job.
 
Originally posted by: Drakkon
I'd take a full time job with benefits any day over consulting ever again. I did consulting for a few years and it was just too frustrating. Good work and pay one year and not so great the next, or even worse it was month to month. I'm much much happier at a full time job. I work less hours, have a lot less headaches, and never have to worry about looking for the "next" job.

No offense at all intended, but those are pretty common failings of many consultants. Too many consultants try to step off on their own without a sufficient network to support them. Too many consultants in technology concentrate on the current contract and fail to diversify. You have to take time out to network, cold call, market, etc.

Some also very much enjoy the business side of things, myself included; it's just another challenge, and educating myself in marketing, business, and taxes can help expand my business.

In the end, I think the one benefit that supercedes all else is freedom. I have the freedom to work less, and so I do. The hours I do work are far more productive than the hours I worked while in corporate as well.

Anyway, that's my tupence.
 
Originally posted by: DJFuji
Usually it means I come in to fix their problems and offer solutions. It's not entry level stuff- that's generally interns. The organizations usually send me to a few interviews to see if i would fit their needs and if i know my stuff. If so, they hire me to develop solutions for them, usually programming-based. i.e. i'm developing an application right now that pulls in raw election data from an external server, parses through it and extracts pertinent data, formats it, and then throws it into a live TV feed for news broadcast coverage.

I see.

I figured it wouldn't be entry level stuff 😛

If I get my place at one of the consultancy companies I should be getting paid quite a lot and have lots of benefits 😀 but the competition is crazy. But at least this year the intake is higher 😀.

Of course I'll be doing basic stuff and learning on what they want me to do. Then after 6months or so I get to deal with my own clients (if I go bankingn route) or work on big projects with people. Not many of the jobs at the bigger companies requires a person to work on their own. Usually it is always part of a team.

Good views from Descartes and Drakkon.

For me personally I don't think working for myself would be as beneficial. I'd prefer to work in an enviroment and not have to do 'everything' myself. Less issues and I know when you do your own business you have to do A LOT OF WORK. And a lot of hrs. I'd rather work my way up the corporate ladder and then later maybe do my own thing?!

Good to hear your guys views :beer:

Koing
 
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Drakkon
I'd take a full time job with benefits any day over consulting ever again. I did consulting for a few years and it was just too frustrating. Good work and pay one year and not so great the next, or even worse it was month to month. I'm much much happier at a full time job. I work less hours, have a lot less headaches, and never have to worry about looking for the "next" job.

No offense at all intended, but those are pretty common failings of many consultants. Too many consultants try to step off on their own without a sufficient network to support them. Too many consultants in technology concentrate on the current contract and fail to diversify. You have to take time out to network, cold call, market, etc.

Some also very much enjoy the business side of things, myself included; it's just another challenge, and educating myself in marketing, business, and taxes can help expand my business.

In the end, I think the one benefit that supercedes all else is freedom. I have the freedom to work less, and so I do. The hours I do work are far more productive than the hours I worked while in corporate as well.

Anyway, that's my tupence.

True true true.

I like this thread 😀

Koing
 
Me too. You can get a lot of great ideas from others trying to establish themselves. My city has a small-business chapter, and they have a great number of people who are trying to establish themselves in a diverse number of industries.

I'd like to point out one more thing if I may: Consulting is much, much more social, and much, much less technical. If you can't fulfill your social obligations, then nevermind your technical abilities. I believe this is also where many technology consultants fail; they want to extend their 8-5 cubicle-dwelling cowboy-coding as a consultant, and that simply doesn't work. I personally spend a lot more of my time as a social consultant: Working with existing staff, trying to push ideas, establishing contracts, requirements gatherings, mentoring, ad nauseum. It's nuclear relationships like these that help establish a foundation in these companies. Also note that once you're in, you're in; you can even "salt the jar" with an ostensibly small project, but once you're there you, and they too, realize that there is much more to be done. I've never consulted for a company on a small project that didn't lead to something more. If you are an affable person, easy to work with, passionate, and network well, then those opportunities open up as well.

Okay, I lied about my tupence above.
 
Point out as much as you'd like.

I like reading advice like this on here. Most of the stuff I read on here is random stuff but this will come in useful for when I start my career next year!

What do you mean with exisiting staff? Is that stuff at the company your consulting for?

Well I'll be applying to Consultancy companies in England. The big ones and just any of them really 😛.

The way it works here is that they train you up. Then they set you on smaller projects or bigger projects but do roles that are less critical and just get experience. Then later you will get more roles and responsibilities. Usually you will work with the team of consultant's from your company (Accenture, GS, etc).

Yeah I know it is a social thing. Anyway they'll have a bunch of code monkey's back at the farm to do the really hardcore stuff 😛. Just got to communicate amongst other things.

Hey you got a covering letter or something like that? I got to write one and not sure how to go about doing it 😛

Koing
 
Descartes, GREAT posts and advice. Thanks for your input. What I do like about consulting is that I'm always learning because i'm always doing something different. It's not the same old boring workday with the same old boring projects. And I do like the social aspects of it as well. Maybe not so much when dealing with difficult clients, but that's par for the course, i think. I have found that most my clients are either referral based, or repeat customers.

$40 is kind of low, you're right, but i have less than 5 years of experience in professional software development, so it's a decent starting point. That, and I worked through a recruiter and he took quite a big cut of the total amount. (50%). And yeah, I get royally screwed on taxes.

On the other hand, I do enjoy the flexibility and the ability to network with many individuals and organizations. But in the case of the full time position, the environment promises to be of the consulting variety-- i make my own schedule, work as many hours as i want to, and can either telecommute or go into the office. That alone is worth me considering.

I guess if the recruiter doesn't offer something on the order of the 55-60+ benefits and a 1-2 year contract, I'd be better off with the full time. Especially since I'm relatively inexperienced in the industry and I'm doing the 1099 thing right now.
 
Originally posted by: Koing
Point out as much as you'd like.

I like reading advice like this on here. Most of the stuff I read on here is random stuff but this will come in useful for when I start my career next year!

What do you mean with exisiting staff? Is that stuff at the company your consulting for?

Well I'll be applying to Consultancy companies in England. The big ones and just any of them really 😛.

The way it works here is that they train you up. Then they set you on smaller projects or bigger projects but do roles that are less critical and just get experience. Then later you will get more roles and responsibilities. Usually you will work with the team of consultant's from your company (Accenture, GS, etc).

Yeah I know it is a social thing. Anyway they'll have a bunch of code monkey's back at the farm to do the really hardcore stuff 😛. Just got to communicate amongst other things.

Hey you got a covering letter or something like that? I got to write one and not sure how to go about doing it 😛

Koing

Koing, that sounds like a pretty good gig for getting started. A lot of my friends are recent college grads with no experience, and they're having to intern at low wages because of it.
 
Originally posted by: Koing
Point out as much as you'd like.

I like reading advice like this on here. Most of the stuff I read on here is random stuff but this will come in useful for when I start my career next year!

Then I have only one thing to say: Don't pay too much attention to all the antagonists who claim the industry is dead/dying 🙂

What do you mean with exisiting staff? Is that stuff at the company your consulting for?

I'm referring to the existing staff at the companies with which you consult. I have a lot of manufacturing clients, and so I interact a lot with workers (especially union workers 🙂) resistant to change and consultants. It's a lot of social effort, and time, on my part to break through this frontline of often anti-social behavior, but it's a required part of the job. I also operate in a mentor capacity on most projects, and so that requires training existing developers in their enterprise, establishing standards, etc. The only point I am trying to make is that it's important to establish rapport with everyone.

Well I'll be applying to Consultancy companies in England. The big ones and just any of them really 😛.

Hey, it works 🙂 I've done the same, and I had to pay my dues while doing so. I started out doing projects without even being asked (and therefore not compensated--I was young) so I could build up contacts, so there's no shame in soliciation, imo. Once you have a solid reputation you'll find your network largely grows on its own.

The way it works here is that they train you up. Then they set you on smaller projects or bigger projects but do roles that are less critical and just get experience. Then later you will get more roles and responsibilities. Usually you will work with the team of consultant's from your company (Accenture, GS, etc).

Sounds like solid progress to me. Experience is the absolute hardest to get, and getting quality experience is even harder. You'll find yourself a parsec beyond those without such experience if you go on your own.

Yeah I know it is a social thing. Anyway they'll have a bunch of code monkey's back at the farm to do the really hardcore stuff 😛. Just got to communicate amongst other things.

Indeed. It's unfortunate, but some of the best developers I have ever known are struggling. Some of them are simply genius in their work, but they lack the social facet. It's this social facet that, imo, prevents being treated as a commodity, and therefore resists the attrition of a saturated industry.

Hey you got a covering letter or something like that? I got to write one and not sure how to go about doing it 😛

A covering letter? I'm not sure what you mean here.
 
Originally posted by: DJFuji
Originally posted by: Koing
Point out as much as you'd like.

I like reading advice like this on here. Most of the stuff I read on here is random stuff but this will come in useful for when I start my career next year!

What do you mean with exisiting staff? Is that stuff at the company your consulting for?

Well I'll be applying to Consultancy companies in England. The big ones and just any of them really 😛.

The way it works here is that they train you up. Then they set you on smaller projects or bigger projects but do roles that are less critical and just get experience. Then later you will get more roles and responsibilities. Usually you will work with the team of consultant's from your company (Accenture, GS, etc).

Yeah I know it is a social thing. Anyway they'll have a bunch of code monkey's back at the farm to do the really hardcore stuff 😛. Just got to communicate amongst other things.

Hey you got a covering letter or something like that? I got to write one and not sure how to go about doing it 😛

Koing

Koing, that sounds like a pretty good gig for getting started. A lot of my friends are recent college grads with no experience, and they're having to intern at low wages because of it.

I haven't got the jobs yet! I'm busy applying to them. Should hear from them around about December/ January time. So hopefully I'll get some.

Koing
 
A covering letter? I'm not sure what you mean here.

Well this Company Lehrman Brothers want me to write the a 'Covering' letter and send my CV. I'm going to my careers people at Uni and have them sort my CV out and then I'll get cracking on to the 'Covering Letter' but it would be nice to read a few though.

Yes it is tough to get in to.

In England the industry is picking up. 1st Year that the industry in England has picked up since 9/11 here. So I am happy about that of course.

Hopefully get I'll my foot in the door at one of the companies then I'll work my way up. Not so bothered about pay right now. Just want my foot in the door and progress up the ladder and things will sort themselves out later.

Koing
 
Originally posted by: DJFuji
Descartes, GREAT posts and advice. Thanks for your input.

Glad I can help. Feel free to PM me at any time in the future if you have any questions.

What I do like about consulting is that I'm always learning because i'm always doing something different. It's not the same old boring workday with the same old boring projects.

This is precisely why I left the corporate world for consulting. I was working at very large corporate with full Dilbert-principle enforcement, and I worked on projects long in duration, but low in diversity and productivity (i.e. do one thing that takes maybe a day, then the rest doing nothing). As a consultant I work on several projects a day. There is simply no substitute for this experience, but obviously not everyone enjoys the perceived volatility. I like working on large projects too, but I bore quickly; working on many things at once helps ameliorate that.

And I do like the social aspects of it as well. Maybe not so much when dealing with difficult clients, but that's par for the course, i think. I have found that most my clients are either referral based, or repeat customers.

It is indeed, but sometimes you have to fire a client. I've never had to actually do it, but I've come very close. If things start to deteriorate I usually call a time out, take them out to lunch, and discuss where the problems lie. Sometimes they just require too much, and if it drains your resources it's not worth it.

$40 is kind of low, you're right, but i have less than 5 years of experience in professional software development, so it's a decent starting point. That, and I worked through a recruiter and he took quite a big cut of the total amount. (50%). And yeah, I get royally screwed on taxes.

I didn't mean to denigrate the rate. $40 isn't a small amount of cash by any means, but pricing too low in any market could have a negative impact. I think this is colloquially called "salting the jar" in marketing, and as I said above, I've done it too. If that gets you in the door, helps build a foundation, and facilitates your subsequent diversification, then it's worth it.

On the other hand, I do enjoy the flexibility and the ability to network with many individuals and organizations. But in the case of the full time position, the environment promises to be of the consulting variety-- i make my own schedule, work as many hours as i want to, and can either telecommute or go into the office. That alone is worth me considering.

If you enjoy the flexibility, etc. then you'll quickly find out there's no other vocational possibility 🙂 There are negatives to it as well, but many of them are more prominent when you start out; newer ones are introduced later once you're established 🙂

I guess if the recruiter doesn't offer something on the order of the 55-60+ benefits and a 1-2 year contract, I'd be better off with the full time. Especially since I'm relatively inexperienced in the industry and I'm doing the 1099 thing right now.

I think the corporate experience is positive, and possibly required. You gain experience in large groups (usually), dealing with the formalities of corporations (this will help you as a consultant, because you'll have first-hand experience), and you'll learn what you might not want to do with your career! My corporate experience was valuable for a number of reasons, but ultimately I learned that I didn't want that lifestyle. Some love it, and that's fantastic. It takes all kinds...

I have one last piece of very important advice: SEE A CPA! I know many feel you can do it on your own, and you can; however, a good accountant can really help you when you're starting out. I've read the IRC (the relevant) parts, books on small business taxes, etc., and they help greatly with my understanding; however, without my accountant I wouldn't have been able to take advantage of a lot of small-business opportunities.

 
This is a little off topic, but I thought I'd give it a shot...

I'm about 15 years old, I'm fluent in PHP (OOP style 😉) and mySQL. I'm very good with analysis and collaboration, but is there even a future in computer science?

I don't know what to major in college, I'm a sophomore right now. I was thinking, major in 'teachery?' (being a teacher.. lol) and throw some computer science in there too. (Not sure if that's called a double major, a minor, or what)

I've taught myself everything I know, and I'm disgusted with the public school systems way of teaching technology. If you've ever read 'Education of a Wandering Man' you'd know the education system is just an outline, or a guide, to put you on the right path. My teacher is a moron, we are trying to take an Oracle class, but we are weeks behind because his laptop has crashed and many other problems he's caused.

I'd like to become a teacher and better the public education system, I know I would't make much money, and that's where my other skills would come in... I'd freelance (or is it consulting?) after school and make a few extra bucks.

OR

Get in a car accident and sue for millions 🙂

 
I switched from a full time position to contract work this year. It's not in the tech field, so don't know how relevant this is for you.
1) I agree that between a $70K salary and $40/hr, the full time job is definitely better in terms of compensation. My contract pay on an hourly basis is about 50% more than salary.
2) It's nice to have a long contract, but that doesn't mean that you won't be let go sooner. Then again, that applies for full time workers 😛
2) I agree that networking is very important. The contracts I scored "on my own" were less lucrative and sucked in other ways. Through my friends, I found better paying work with better environments.
3) Plan ahead and keep a sizable reserve of $$ in case the work dries up
4) I agree that if you're just starting out in your field, it's a good idea to work a full time salaried position to gain experience. In my field, no experience=no contracts. As Descartes said, learning corporate behavior is critical. Once, I was awarded some work because although the candidates had similar skills and experience, the company felt that my personality/professionalism was a better fit for the project team.

And, Descartes, thanks for the tip on CPAs. I've been vaccillating on that issue, but I guess I really should 'consult' one (pun intended)
 
Originally posted by: insolence
This is a little off topic, but I thought I'd give it a shot...

I'm about 15 years old, I'm fluent in PHP (OOP style 😉) and mySQL. I'm very good with analysis and collaboration, but is there even a future in computer science?

I don't know what to major in college, I'm a sophomore right now. I was thinking, major in 'teachery?' (being a teacher.. lol) and throw some computer science in there too. (Not sure if that's called a double major, a minor, or what)

I've taught myself everything I know, and I'm disgusted with the public school systems way of teaching technology. If you've ever read 'Education of a Wandering Man' you'd know the education system is just an outline, or a guide, to put you on the right path. My teacher is a moron, we are trying to take an Oracle class, but we are weeks behind because his laptop has crashed and many other problems he's caused.

I'd like to become a teacher and better the public education system, I know I would't make much money, and that's where my other skills would come in... I'd freelance (or is it consulting?) after school and make a few extra bucks.

OR

Get in a car accident and sue for millions 🙂

Insolence, that's great that you already know PHP at 15. I didn't even start programming until i was almost 19. Computer science, IMO, will ALWAYS have a future. However, don't get into this field unless you like it. The field has become saturated at times because people listen to microskills talk about how they can get that "high paying tech job." Every once in a while, a dotcom bust comes along and wipes out everyone but the hard core tech geeks. With coding, if you don't like sitting for hours in front of a monitor or constantly learning and researching, this isnt the field for you.

On the other hand, i know several programmers who love teaching. One of them teaches part time, does consulting part time, and does IT full time. If you are a teacher, you could certainly freelance on your off time. At 15, you can even start now. Start taking on low-paying or pro bono jobs until you develop a network and a portfolio/resume. By the time you're 18 you'll be pretty experienced with some solid contacts.
 
Originally posted by: Mermaidman
I switched from a full time position to contract work this year. It's not in the tech field, so don't know how relevant this is for you.
1) I agree that between a $70K salary and $40/hr, the full time job is definitely better in terms of compensation. My contract pay on an hourly basis is about 50% more than salary.
2) It's nice to have a long contract, but that doesn't mean that you won't be let go sooner. Then again, that applies for full time workers 😛
2) I agree that networking is very important. The contracts I scored "on my own" were less lucrative and sucked in other ways. Through my friends, I found better paying work with better environments.
3) Plan ahead and keep a sizable reserve of $$ in case the work dries up
4) I agree that if you're just starting out in your field, it's a good idea to work a full time salaried position to gain experience. In my field, no experience=no contracts. As Descartes said, learning corporate behavior is critical. Once, I was awarded some work because although the candidates had similar skills and experience, the company felt that my personality/professionalism was a better fit for the project team.

And, Descartes, thanks for the tip on CPAs. I've been vaccillating on that issue, but I guess I really should 'consult' one (pun intended)

Thanks for the advice. Your numbers jive fairly accurately with what i was thinking. I'd have to be making around 50-55/hourly in order to make it worthwhile to pass up full time.

I've worked in a large corporate-type environment (USMC) as a developer for 4 years and i've consulted pretty extensively during that time, but i think it would be very beneficial if i had a full time position in the civilian sector. Even though I'm fairly confident that i can do consulting full time and be ok, i'd like the experience and security of working full time, at least for a while.

Also, a lot of organizations i run across discount my military experience as "not real," even though for the most part, it was like working for a large, bureaucratic corporation. And because this full time job is claiming to offer the flexibility of consulting, it seems i can hardly lose. Unless the recruiters throw me some ridiculous offer, i'll probably take the permanent job.
 
Originally posted by: DJFuji
Originally posted by: Mermaidman
I switched from a full time position to contract work this year. It's not in the tech field, so don't know how relevant this is for you.
1) I agree that between a $70K salary and $40/hr, the full time job is definitely better in terms of compensation. My contract pay on an hourly basis is about 50% more than salary.
2) It's nice to have a long contract, but that doesn't mean that you won't be let go sooner. Then again, that applies for full time workers 😛
2) I agree that networking is very important. The contracts I scored "on my own" were less lucrative and sucked in other ways. Through my friends, I found better paying work with better environments.
3) Plan ahead and keep a sizable reserve of $$ in case the work dries up
4) I agree that if you're just starting out in your field, it's a good idea to work a full time salaried position to gain experience. In my field, no experience=no contracts. As Descartes said, learning corporate behavior is critical. Once, I was awarded some work because although the candidates had similar skills and experience, the company felt that my personality/professionalism was a better fit for the project team.

And, Descartes, thanks for the tip on CPAs. I've been vaccillating on that issue, but I guess I really should 'consult' one (pun intended)

Thanks for the advice. Your numbers jive fairly accurately with what i was thinking. I'd have to be making around 50-55/hourly in order to make it worthwhile to pass up full time.

I've worked in a large corporate-type environment (USMC) as a developer for 4 years and i've consulted pretty extensively during that time, but i think it would be very beneficial if i had a full time position in the civilian sector. Even though I'm fairly confident that i can do consulting full time and be ok, i'd like the experience and security of working full time, at least for a while.

Also, a lot of organizations i run across discount my military experience as "not real," even though for the most part, it was like working for a large, bureaucratic corporation. And because this full time job is claiming to offer the flexibility of consulting, it seems i can hardly lose. Unless the recruiters throw me some ridiculous offer, i'll probably take the permanent job.

You could definitely get a job with a defense contractor, as long as you have a college degree....
 
I'm actually 16, my bad 🙂

Anyway, I've been programming for 3 years, I've worked on quite a few projects and such... but all this news about outsourcing to India and such, I think putting my eggs in a few basket is the best bet.

Thanks 🙂
 
I have looked into defense contracting - it's a viable option, esp with consulting, but the bad thing is that it usually requires a hefty commute or relocation.

Insolence, you forgot how old you are? lol. There will always be a demand for solid developers in the states. There will just be a bit more competition than most are used to. As always, the cream will rise to the top.
 
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