console encoder and circuitry quality

[Anarchist420]

Did you like it better when the quality of the circuitry and the video encoder in the console mattered or do you like having HDMI better?

I'd say analog when done right is better than digital, but digital is better than analog not done right. If you got really good output circuitry quality and the best video encoder in a console, then that was better.

The advantage of HDMI is that the quality of the circuitry in the console doesn't matter. A disadvantage with HDMI is the lag from the TV's processing and the fact that the output quality probably isn't quite as good as using an RGB cable with a console with great circuitry quality and a great video encoder. For example, a Genesis with the best video encoder and great circuitry (wired how it's supposed to be, good caps with no leakage, etc.) hooked up to a good CRT with an RGB cable would give better output quality than any digital connection to any LCD currently in existence would with no input lag caused by the TV. However, caps generally tend to degrade after time and you could never trust the console manufacturers to always use the best video encoder possible and for them to always use the right output traces, the best caps, etc.

I imagine the Wii will be the last console in which the DAC/encoder quality will have mattered (since all but the earliest X360s used HDMI).

 

[BD2003]

This isnt really a matter of opinion. Games are digital at their core. The smallest element of a graphic is a pixel. Analog can only add distortions. This simply isnt the same thing as analog vs digital recording - those are an approximations of real phenoma - games/graphics are pure digital phenomena.

That is to say - vinyl can arguably sound better than a CD due to analog recording nuances that digital cant. But if you were to take a CD and transfer it to vinyl, any nuance added by that process is distortion, plain and simple.

With HDMI, output quality from the source to the display is literally perfect.

 

[A5]

The 360 didn't get HDMI until like 3 years in, either. But DAC/Encoder quality has never mattered on consoles - as long as it is functional, that's all that mattered.

HDMI is the best thing that happened this generation - paying $30+ for a proprietary component cable was really dumb. Now I can buy a $4 cable on Monoprice and get better quality.

 

[Anarchist420]

The 360 didn't get HDMI until like 3 years in, either. But DAC/Encoder quality has never mattered on consoles - as long as it is functional, that's all that mattered.

You've apparently never used an old genesis or compared different Super NES revisions. Unless you mean most people didn't make an issue out of it.

 

[A5]

You've apparently never used an old genesis or compared different Super NES revisions. Unless you mean most people didn't make an issue out of it.

That's what I mean - if there isn't a bunch of nerds raging about it, I can't imagine its a huge deal.

 

[serpretetsky]

A disadvantage with HDMI is the lag from the TV's processing

That's not a problem with HDMI, that's a problem with TV's that have input lag. A lot of TV's have a "gamer mode" you can turn on to minimize any input lag. Most cheap computer monitors with hdmi have almost no input lag.

edit: "almost no input lag" is pretty subjective. By "almost no input lag" i mean most of the people that CAN feel the lag on a TV probably wont feel any on a cheap computer monitor.

 

[BD2003]

You've apparently never used an old genesis or compared different Super NES revisions. Unless you mean most people didn't make an issue out of it.

Yeah, the genesis did have a shitty DAC, that problem is 100% solved with HDMI and a digital display. Analog is obsolete.

 

[Anarchist420]

That's not a problem with HDMI, that's a problem with TV's that have input lag. A lot of TV's have a "gamer mode" you can turn on to minimize any input lag. Most cheap computer monitors with hdmi have almost no input lag.

edit: "almost no input lag" is pretty subjective. By "almost no input lag" i mean most of the people that CAN feel the lag on a TV probably wont feel any on a cheap computer monitor.

I don't see the need for much processing, since a good BD Player/GPU/whatever would have a good TMDS transmitter feature set that would take care of the processing so the monitor doesn't need to do it.

Anyway, you're right about the "almost" part being subjective. Still, 60 Hz input makes it so you'll need vsync if you can't tolerate tearing and the game mode of most TVs decreases added input lag from default, but generally doesn't decrease it to adding less than 15 ms. If it's a game mode meant to reduce input lag, then it should reduce the added (i.e., added to the input lag caused by mouse, keyboard, GPU/CPU, etc) input lag to like 5 ms (or less).

I can feel some input lag on Apple LED Cinema, most specifically with Aero. I believe the monitor adds 12.5 ms, plus an addition frame(16.66ms) due to vsync, plus the lag from the GPU (depends upon the app), plus a little bit from my keyboard/mouse.

It would be nice if the input lag of the monitor could be reduced to, say, 5 ms and then have 120 Hz input so I won't need vsync. That would significantly reduce input lag to just 5ms plus the mouse, plus the GPU and CPU. Getting total lag down to 14ms (5 from the monitor, maybe 2 from the keyboard and mouse, maybe 2 from the CPU/RAM, and about 5 from the GPU) would be acceptable and is really actually technologically possible.

Why they don't make an H-IPS clear panel with lower input lag, a higher color gamut (90% NTSC for the panel and backlight would've been great), and a 120 Hz input I don't understand. Higher contrast ratio would be good also. I guess Apple just likes making mediocre products.

I'd be willing to sacrifice resolution for other features.

 

[Anarchist420]

Yeah, the genesis did have a shitty DAC, that problem is 100% solved with HDMI and a digital display. Analog is obsolete.

Different revisions of the Genesis used different video encoders and the quality of the circuitry (caps, grounding, shielding, wiring, electrical routing, etc). If you have the best video encoder (the Sony CXA 1665 IIRC) and the caps are fresh, the Genesis looks pretty good hooked up through an RGB cable. Clear, no jail bars, accurate colors, excellent contrast, appropriate brightness.

Fortunately, the HDMI transmitter isn't affected by poor circuitry quality unlike DACs and encoders.

 

[BD2003]

Different revisions of the Genesis used different video encoders and the quality of the circuitry (caps, grounding, shielding, wiring, electrical routing, etc). If you have the best video encoder (the Sony CXA 1665 IIRC) and the caps are fresh, the Genesis looks pretty good hooked up through an RGB cable. Clear, no jail bars, accurate colors, excellent contrast, appropriate brightness.

Fortunately, the HDMI transmitter isn't affected by poor circuitry quality unlike DACs and encoders.

Genesis looks even better through an emulator over HDMI.

 

[exdeath]

HDMI for everything that supports it. 480P Component for most of the 32 bit systems is fine, its the same as RGB. SCART RGB for everything that does not (8/16 bit). RGB bypasses the encoder. Thank god because my Genesis 2 has the crappy Samsung encoder with the blocky jailbars, RGB is better than arcade monitor bliss. Running a Sony PVM HR Trinitron for Retro consoles on 15khz RGB.

 

[exdeath]

Different revisions of the Genesis used different video encoders and the quality of the circuitry (caps, grounding, shielding, wiring, electrical routing, etc). If you have the best video encoder (the Sony CXA 1665 IIRC) and the caps are fresh, the Genesis looks pretty good hooked up through an RGB cable. Clear, no jail bars, accurate colors, excellent contrast, appropriate brightness.

Fortunately, the HDMI transmitter isn't affected by poor circuitry quality unlike DACs and encoders.

Encoder doesn't matter for RGB. In RGB the same 3 wires going from the PPU to the encoder input also continue straight to the RGB pins on the AV out. Encoder only matters if you use puke NTSC (yellow hookup).