Considering Switching from ISRT to single Samsung 840Pro SSD with P8Z68-V Pro v.1

[BonzaiDuck]

Here's the situation. As prologue, I made a mistake last week and had to restore my entire Win 7 boot disk from my WHS server. The anxiety under delay was a killer. I want to avoid situations like that: I use this computer for a mix of serious and fun stuff; it feeds my AVR/HDTV rig as well.

I have this brand-new Samsung 840 Pro -- originally slated for a new computer build later this year. That project will be postponed.

My sig rig has ISRT working fine (again) with a 60GB caching SSD. I'm planning to keep the P8Z68-V Pro BIOS configured for RAID. My best understanding is that standalone drives and even a caching SSD ("RAID0" to itself) provides and allows Windows' TRIM function.

My BIOS for the P8Z68 . . board is version 606. I have not upgraded it, because there was never anything wrong with it. I also see that there is a 3xxx BIOS version with a more recent IRST driver and software. My current IRST driver/software is 10.6.2.1001. [This may be an important fact as I seek advice here.]

I need to know if I will run into any snags if I clone my HDD to the Samsung. The cloning software will see perfectly to the SSD's alignment -- that's been guaranteed.

But --

What can I expect from this older version of IRST driver/SW?

Will Samsung Magician work with the controller still configured in "RAID mode" (it will be a "non-RAID" drive)?

Not eager to update the BIOS -- I'd have to screen-capture my BIOS configuration(s) and go through all those hoops again. But the BIOS version and IRST software seem to be mutually dependent, or at least it's implied by the way ASUS provides BIOS updates.

I've read so far that some people have instability issues with different versions of IRST. Others say that Magician isn't fully functional with a standalone SSD in a RAID-mode BIOS configuration.

I don't NEED to make this switchover, and it will likely be reversible as long as I preserve the current HDD boot-disk. I WILL make the switchover if it leads to a stable configuration I can live with, even if Magician isn't fully functional.

Can anyone inform me about the pros, the cons, the "what I have to do" and what will work without leading to days of more misery?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It occurs to me that TRIM was enabled for the ISRT SSD.

The "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify" command, even so, only tells us whether Windows is enabling TRIM from that end; it may not tell us whether the SSD is responding to it. Or -- so I gleaned from some other readings.

I probably should've scanned through the very long, mature sticky on SSDs.

But it's pretty clear that TRIM is enabled for RAID-mode standalone drives that are not part of an array.

It also seems that even my older IRST drivers/software should at least recognize the 840 Pro, since they recognize the caching SSD for that purpose.

I guess there's only one way to find out.

I can cable the drive to the controller, format it, see how the system behaves. There's a utility called "TRIMCheck" which is supposed to be installed on the drive that it tests (unless I misunderstood something.) The utility should prove whether the drive is being Trimmed.

I thought maybe there were some Z68 veterans here who might have a clearer picture of things. I'm trying to avoid complications as I "develop" hardware changes on two different PCs. I'm probably too hesitant, and probably shouldn't be . . .

 

[Z15CAM]

You and I have about identical Platforms. I have an i7 2700k/P8Z68V-Pro Gen3, Win7 [64] on a Samsung 840 Pro, 2 HDD's in Raid-0, 1 HDD for Storage and Optic Drive. All 6 Intel Sata controllers enable in RAID Mode in BIOS.

I would say you have the theory down pat; however, I would not hesitate to update your BIOS to latest version (3603, I believe) and use the latest IRST Drivers (I'm using Intel RST v12.5.0.1066 [64]). That Russian TRIMCheck tool does work and TRIM only works if the SSD is NOT part of an Array. Basically the independent Media (not a member of an Array) mounted on the Intel SATA Controler in RAID Mode is considered to be in ACHI Mode. You are correct assuming Samsung's Magician only works with SSD's mounted in ACHI Mode and does not support their SSD's mounted in RAID Mode. I can't see why Samsung can't update their software to support their SSD's mounted in RAID Mode.

I do not trust any 3rd Party Cloning Software claiming Disk Management that professes to prepare HDD's or SSD's for Alignment before dumping OS Images. I will EFI Boot to DiskPart CMD and manually prepare the Media by establishing: Partitions, Alignment and Format Fat or NTFS before over-writing them with Partition Images - I use DOS GHOST.EXE and image only Partitions (Not Disks) and store the images on DOS Bootable FAT32 Formatted Media. A DOS Bootable 32GB USB Flash Drive is very handy for this - Very Simple.

One thing I do is Set Win7's FAT32 Boot Partition at around 1Gb. This allows you to DOS Boot into that Partition for running DOS Utilities such as Flashing Firmware ... etc and storing Registry BackUps.

If you are concerned about your Win BackUp Images reaction to various changes in hardware, keep a BackUp Image that was cloned just after running SYS-Prep to make an OOBE Image - DOS GHOST.EXE is excellent for this. That way the Image upon Boot will run Win's SetUp, Scan your Hardware and properly Install Device Drivers. I believe Microsoft allows you 3 instances of SYS-Prep before it's Disabled - So keep that in mind to protect over extending that situation. There is a HACK to re-arm system prep but have not needed use of it as yet.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You and I have about identical Platforms. .

[THE MEAT!!] . . . . . .

This will be an all-time first for me at Anandtech. I'm printing out your post so I can study it.

On your comments about cloning SW, I'll say this now: For Win 7 (and SP1) 64 -- Acronis Disk Director 11 (and upgrade #2) is quite solid on the SSD thing. It's the same technology as Acronis True Image 2014, which I used to clone my WHS boot disk to SSD. The SSD result was working fine until I started troubleshooting my "Core-0 loading mystery" -- which I solved (single-handed!) and explained in threads of "Operating Systems." I my case, I got careless. Worse than that, didn't remember what I did to create a bootable CD version of Disk Director a couple years back. Anyone who fools with Acronis needs to know: "Use the Linux option for the bootable CD -- AND! -- don't count on Acronis to give a successful CD burn -- use the ISO option and burn that to disk independently. The Windows PE option in Acronis sucks, because it requires you to choose the drivers that must be incorporated in the bootable CD.

So under the auspices of a successfully created bootable CD, I've used Disk Director to clone my boot drive on this system (like yours) several times. I've used it for backup "insurance," for swapping one drive for a better one -- all of that. On the SSD issue, the assurances about Acronis are "all over the web" -- not just the Acronis forums or whatever promotion would server their interests.

I'm more concerned about the options I have: "Change from RAID-mode to AHCI in BIOS (and hope the registry edits work properly);" "update the BIOS (after copying my OC profiles) and updating to the latest IRST version; etc. etc.

So that's why I need to study your post! And -- like the Gubernator said in his pre-political movies -- "Ah'll be back!" :biggrin:

 

[Z15CAM]

If you change BIOS SATA deployment from from AHCI to SATA Mode on ReBoot, I would ensure to have the latest MB BIOS and latest IRST Driver installed and hope for the Best - GOOD Luck.

Just ensure you have a BackUp AHCI Mode Image in which case you can reset AHCI and Start Over - LOL

However I am 100% positive is that a SYS-Prep OOBE Image will successively handle it.

Here some reading to get you started for making a SYS-Prep OOBE Image: http://www.robertborges.us/2012/12/windows/using-sysprep-before-creating-a-system-image/

NOTE: You have to initiate SYS-Prep before Windows finishes scanning system integrity after rebooting. SYS-Prep is BROKEN if you have run any form of Microsoft Windows UpGrade. Running the SP1 UpDate may also Break SYS-Prep.

Here's a Hack that may Re-Arm SYS-Prep: http://www.symantec.com/connect/articles/how-sysprep-windows-vista-7-or-8-image-more-three-times

To lessen complications, use a StartUp utility such as Mike Lin's Startup Control Panel to disable all Programs and APP's in StartUp not related to Windows OS before making your BackUp Image. Great Win7 64-Bit Registry Maintenance and BackUp tools are CCleaner and ERUNT. RegVAC is a Great Win7 32-Bit registry cleaner but extremely dangerous for Win 64-Bit versions.

I run DOS GHOST.EXE with this command "ghost.exe -split=701". Spanned for the old 700Mb CD's era - A habit I got use to which helps me keep track of the size of my BackUp Images and store segments on various FAT32 Media.

Obviously I have no use for MS Restore and Backup utilities and do not use Hibernation.

I recommend the following Apps: GHOST SERVER v8 Corp_Bld 8.0.0.984, trimcheck-04.exe, HpFlash v2.0.6 [86] - USB DOS BOOT and USB & DVD - Win7 SetUp Tool using a WinME Bootdisk with access to GHOST.EXE and Delpart.exe.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

If you change BIOS SATA deployment from from AHCI to SATA Mode on ReBoot, I would ensure to have the latest MB BIOS and latest IRST Driver installed and hope for the Best - GOOD Luck.

Just ensure you have a BackUp AHCI Mode Image in which case you can reset AHCI and Start Over - LOL

However I am 100% positive is that a SYS-Prep OOBE Image will successively handle it.

Here some reading to get you started for making a SYS-Prep OOBE Image: http://www.robertborges.us/2012/12/windows/using-sysprep-before-creating-a-system-image/

NOTE: You have to initiate SYS-Prep before Windows finishes scanning system integrity after rebooting. SYS-Prep is BROKEN if you have run any form of Microsoft Windows UpGrade. Running the SP1 UpDate may also Break SYS-Prep.

Here's a Hack that may Re-Arm SYS-Prep: http://www.symantec.com/connect/articles/how-sysprep-windows-vista-7-or-8-image-more-three-times

So . . it begs investigation -- whether "restoring" my Win 7 in a "bare-metal" recovery [EDIT: from WHS-2011 daily backups and a thumb drive] to a new disk would cause a problem with SYS-Prep.

You are certainly on solid ground with all of it -- BIOS upgrade, IRST upgrade and what you know about Sys-Prep.

I was contemplating another path, though, which I will explain after this: here's a white-paper on a Magician feature called "RAPID-mode:"

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...wnloads/Samsung_SSD_Rapid_Mode_Whitepaper.pdf

Having spent three years now running an ISRT configuration, this looks like ISRT "internalized" to the SSD itself. Somewhere in the white-paper is a CrystalDiskMark bench result. If this works as it's intended, promoted and "re-assured" -- "without risk" they say -- it would be like getting Sammy 840 x2 in RAID0 without buying the second SSD. Or -- you could use the second SSD for other-than-boot disk, without even the miniscule and insignificant worry about the array breaking. Of course, with ANY possible SSD disk failure (probability much lower than for HDD), you'd have made regular backups.

Now -- my own plan -- and justification. If I were going to use the Intel RAID features for other than ISRT, I would have done it by now. I still have two systems in the house sporting RAID0 for some WD Black drives. But I've decided to move away from RAID. Prices such as they are, if I needed the extra speed bump, I might consider getting a 1TB EVO drive instead. Eventually, the only HDDs in systems here will be in my server box, or used for DVR'ing from Media Center. Otherwise, they'll go into drive-caddies and used as backup disks. Maybe I miss something there, and I can think about it some more.

So I'm inclined to follow this path:

1) Clone the standalone boot-disk (unhinged from ISRT) and test it.
2) Make the registry edits to the clone to change from RAID to AHCI.
3) Reboot to BIOS, change from RAID to AHCI, cross my fingers, and boot. Test for stability.
4) Clone the HDD clone and boot drive to the Sammy 840 Pro.
5) Install the magician software; implement "RAPID-Mode."

Now the question arises -- "Should I update the BIOS and the IRST software? Or just 'let it be?'" I'm still using BIOS 606!! And IRST 10.6.2.1001 !! Am I afraid to update my BIOS? I'd done it dozens (and dozens) of times on systems before this: only had one failure in 2007 -- ordered PLCC chip and fixed it.

So I could add the steps to the five already set forth. But -- do I need to do it!? I'm not sure that I do. The only thing that would change that assessment: Somehow, Magician and IRST 10.6.2.1001 "don't play well together." But what does IRST have to "do" when the SSD is in AHCI mode and Magician is "supposed to work" with it?

Maybe I'm just getting lazy, and I should go ahead and change the BIOS. Certainly, it didn't affect the OC behavior of your hardware with the i7-2700K. I'll just have to add "step 0" -- print the BIOS screens of my profiles . . . .

Feel free to comment on that "RAPID-Mode" thing. I see everybody saying "You don' need Magician!" This RAPID thing only popped up in the news over the last several months. It was after your forum posts much earlier last year about your SSD . . . experiences. [Those are already in the "forum archive" format!]

 

[BonzaiDuck]

If you change BIOS SATA deployment from from AHCI to SATA Mode on ReBoot, I would ensure to have the latest MB BIOS and latest IRST Driver installed and hope for the Best - GOOD Luck.
. . .
.

So . . . . my experience so far could be an assessment of "tech-support access and helpfulness" for hardware manufacturers.

1) Whether or not you "establish an account" with Samsung, their tech-support "e-mail" option is entirely inoperable -- inaccessible. The portal to e-mail communication is totally disabled there. Instead, one must rely on their white-papers, other users -- other sources -- to get an answer to a simple question. THUMBS DOWN TO SAMSUNG!!

2) I just got an answer back from ASUS about the swapover from ISRT to standalone SSD, converting from P8Z68-V Pro "RAID-mode" in BIOS to AHCI. He didn't seem to know how the IRST driver revisions had addressed the functionality of "TRIM" in RAID-Mode. He suggests that I "reinstall the OS" from scratch on a bare SSD in AHCI mode, noting that using an SSD as a "data drive" wouldn't require conversion to AHCI. That's the worst possible solution, given how my otherwise-stellar Win 7 installation involves PILES of software and "sub-configurations" over three years! And what he is saying -- my paraphrase: "Reinstall the OS to confirm reliability and stability."

There are enough forum exchanges -- various web-sites -- about converting between RAID, AHCI and "IDE" that the registry edits required are fairly well-established. What I DON'T know is how those forum posters fared with their conversions. That's a question for another thread here at Anandtech -- I suppose.

So, given the uncertainties of the people who MADE the motherboard and BIOS revisions, and lack of "intelligence" about the CONSEQUENCES of converting from RAID to AHCI, it seems that Z15CAM is correct: the best thing to do is to update the BIOS and IRST drivers/software.

This leaves the final issue unresolved. Here it is as I've seen it indicated so far. A seemingly knowledgeable British guru seems to be saying that Samsung Magician works properly with (only) Intel controllers in "RAID mode." He doesn't say "how properly" or to what degree. But the insinuation likely is that -- yes-- BIOS and IRST drivers should be updated.

This then gets to the final question -- about the SSD, the BIOS sata mode, and the functionality of Magician: "Can I have RAPID Mode" with the Samsung 840 Pro under Intel sata "RAID mode," -- or not?!!

Mainstreamers just go out and buy an new Dell or HP.

Those of us here who explore these questions -- we might as well start a club for masochists! [joking]

 

[Z15CAM]

it seems that Z15CAM is correct: the best thing to do is to update the BIOS and IRST drivers/software.

Hey I'm not totally convinced of that other then saying you probably stand the best chance of a GUI Boot. One thing I do know is that if you save a SYS-Prep OOBE Image it will work irregardless whether or not you have the latest BIOS and IRST Drivers because Windows runs through the installation SetUp, Scans and load drivers as if you originally installed and ran the Win SetUp keeping your Applications.

I do recommend before contemplating and switching between AHCI and RAID Modes is to UpDate the MB BIOS Firmware and load the latest IRST Drivers in Windows. In that respect Windows will have the driver to load either Controller and update the registry when finding new hardware on StartUp and may not require a SYS-Prep Image. If your OS does not have the proper IDE, AHCI or Raid Drivers the OS will not boot. Think, Data Storage Interfaces of your MB holds your OS which requires the proper MB Drivers for Win to boot successfully.

In all honesty to protect their hold on OOBE, I believe MS purposely omitted to copy their Generic RAID Dvrs to the storage Driver Cab when Win is installed in either IDE or AHCI Mode and Visa Versa and that's why a SYS-Prep BackUp Image works and your only allowed 3 - It's all about keeping the consumer reaching into their pockets to feed Mr. Bill Gate's Empire.

Techs who know will never tell you what they know as their calls are recorded and their jobs depend on what they divulge. You can joke about it with them looking for hints with no solutions other then what you come up with.

I'm referencing Win7 32 & 64-Bit.

I'm surprised this thread doesn't attract more interest - Perhaps BonziaDuck should rename it - HINT "Been There Done it". Well that's extreme comparisons in regards to Re-Titling the Thread. Anand knows.

You're a Fighter seeking something that doesn't exit, it's shameful and can get you into a can of worms - Save Your Words Carefully in Open Forums- Trust me the easy way of learning is to do it at one step at a time.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Hey I'm not totally convinced of that other then saying you probably stand the best chance of a GUI Boot. One thing I do know is that if you save a SYS-Prep OOBE Image it will work irregardless whether or not you have the latest BIOS and IRST Drivers because Windows runs through the installation SetUp, Scans and load drivers as if you originally installed and ran the Win SetUp keeping your Applications.

I do recommend before contemplating and switching between AHCI and RAID Modes is to UpDate the MB BIOS Firmware and load the latest IRST Drivers in Windows. In that respect Windows will have the driver to load either Controller and update the registry when finding new hardware on StartUp and may not require a SYS-Prep Image. If your OS does not have the proper IDE, AHCI or Raid Drivers the OS will not boot. Think, Data Storage Interfaces of your MB holds your OS which requires the proper MB Drivers for Win to boot successfully.

In all honesty to protect their hold on OOBE, I believe MS purposely omitted to copy their Generic RAID Dvrs to the storage Driver Cab when Win is installed in either IDE or AHCI Mode and Visa Versa and that's why a SYS-Prep BackUp Image works and your only allowed 3 - It's all about keeping the consumer reaching into their pockets to feed Mr. Bill Gate's Empire.

Techs who know will never tell you what they know as their calls are recorded and their jobs depend on what they divulge. You can joke about it with them looking for hints with no solutions other then what you come up with.

I'm referencing Win7 32 & 64-Bit.

I'm surprised this thread doesn't attract more interest - Perhaps BonziaDuck should rename it - HINT "Been There Done it". Well that's extreme comparisons in regards to Re-Titling the Thread. Anand knows.

You're a Fighter seeking something that doesn't exit, it's shameful and can get you into a can of worms - Save Your Words Carefully in Open Forums- Trust me the easy way of learning is to do it at one step at a time.

I'm getting ready for the switchover, and less reluctantly now that I've found this:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976

On the one hand, if it were risky or difficult to convert a stable RAID-mode disk to an AHCI-mode disk (of the type under which Samsung Magician is fully functional whether or not we're sure of the latest update) -- Microsoft wouldn't post a "Fix It" button so casually.

On the other hand, I'm going to clone my hard disk to another hard disk, test the clone for a while after clicking on "Fix It" and changing the BIOS. Then I'm going to clone that clone to the Samsung and install Magician.

If I want anything between RAID0 and RAID6, I'll install a controller card. My objective is to reduce power consumption with a good modicum of storage space available, enhanced speed for OS programs and applications, quick daily backups of images to the server and solid data integrity.

I may have just such a controller in my possession, but for this workstation, there's no hurry to use it. I'm upgrading my WHS server with two of them, even so. . . . I'm going to test them one at a time before removing the unit with the defective port out of four available. Then RMA the defective unit.