Considering building a FreeNAS box with my old system - need help

[Nvidiaguy07]

Just upgraded my main PC, which bumps my work PC out, which I can either sell (waste of time), or re-purpose for a server. Ive looked into FreeNAS a bit, and know Ive got some parts that would definitely be good, but unsure about others. I want to run a Plex server from it (no more than 1 or 2 streams needed). I also only need maybe 6-8TB or so for now (I was thinking of buying three 4TB hard drives to use - cant remember what raid configuration that is)

Here's the computer that Ill be using:
Processor: Intel Pentium G3258
definitely good enough for my purposes (also it will be overclocked)

Motherboard: MSI H81M-E34
unsure about if this is OK. I only need 3 Sata ports, so I think im good. Pretty sure this takes ECC RAM - not sure where to find this info though.

CPU Fan: H212 EVO = fine, whatever

Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 8GB (need to upgrade)
definitely need to upgrade to ECC RAM. Ill probably go with 8GB? I read somewhere that you should go with 1GB for every TB of storage - so this seems ok. If not ill spend a little more on 16GB. Does this benefit from dual channel as well? Should I just get 1 8GB stick?

Graphics card: not needed

Case: Antec 900 - fine

Power Supply: Corsair TX750 - maybe overkill, but fine

Hard Drives: none right now
I need recommendations here. Like I said 6-8TB of storage is what im looking for. I have some other drives, but I'd rather get 3 new drives for the purpose of this server.

USB Drive: Will any decent usb drive do? Ill order a new one if I have to, but I already have a bunch.


How are my parts looking so far? Is there anything im not taking into account? Not trying to break the bank here, but im estimating my costs as such:
8GB of ECC RAM: cant find a decent kit?
or 16GB: $130
4TB hard drive $140 each?

Thanks in advance!

 

[VirtualLarry]

I really doubt that that board needs ECC. But likewise, I'm not really sure that you need it for this. I know that the FreeNAS / ZFS forums have a "dogma" about "needing" ECC memory, but it's not necessary in all cases.

What are you going to be storing? If it's just movie rips or something, then you probably don't need to go to the expense of ECC.

I don't think that CPU even supports ECC anyways, btw.

For HDDs, I suggest Toshiba X300 5TB drives, or WD Red 4TB drives, in that price range.

Edit: Well, color me surprised, according to Intel, the G3258 DOES support ECC memory. Neat!
http://ark.intel.com/products/82723/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3258-3M-Cache-3_20-GHz


Those Toshiba 5TB drives are on sale right now for $139.99 AP FS, hurry!
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...ternalHardDrives-_-22149628-S1A2B&ignorebbr=1

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I really doubt that that board needs ECC. But likewise, I'm not really sure that you need it for this. I know that the FreeNAS / ZFS forums have a "dogma" about "needing" ECC memory, but it's not necessary in all cases.

What are you going to be storing? If it's just movie rips or something, then you probably don't need to go to the expense of ECC.

I don't think that CPU even supports ECC anyways, btw.

For HDDs, I suggest Toshiba X300 5TB drives, or WD Red 4TB drives, in that price range.

Edit: Well, color me surprised, according to Intel, the G3258 DOES support ECC memory. Neat!
http://ark.intel.com/products/82723/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3258-3M-Cache-3_20-GHz


Those Toshiba 5TB drives are on sale right now for $139.99 AP FS, hurry!
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...ternalHardDrives-_-22149628-S1A2B&ignorebbr=1

Just picked up 3 of those drives, thanks!

Its mostly DVD rips and stuff like that, but I also have some actual irreplaceable things that Id like backed up (home movies, important files, etc). I can deal with losing the rips, but the other stuff not so much.

I currently just make a ton of backups every so often, but its a pain in the ass. Its usually 1. original copy on my internal hard drive 2. backup to external HDD 3. make DVD backups of important stuff every so often 4. flash drive backups as well. So I think its about time I invested in a home server.

Im trying to streamline this process, as its time consuming, and definitely not fail safe.

Any recommendations on which ECC ram to buy? its not too much more $$ and I'm already spending for the HDDs so whats a little more.

How does everything else look? I think I might be good to go after ordering those two.

Also - is there a way to have Freenas do off-site backups every so often? Besides this server that will be at my house and on 24/7, I can also set up another computer at a different location that would sync with certain folders every so often if thats a possibility. Ive heard about people using bittorrent sync and stuff like that - maybe thats an option? will freenas do that? Like I said its not a huge portion of the data, and would only need to be backed up every so often. Just trying to make sure im covered if my house burned down or something like that.

Thanks!

 

[VirtualLarry]

Any recommendations on which ECC ram to buy? its not too much more $$ and I'm already spending for the HDDs so whats a little more.

How does everything else look? I think I might be good to go after ordering those two.

Also - is there a way to have Freenas do off-site backups every so often? Besides this server that will be at my house and on 24/7, I can also set up another computer at a different location that would sync with certain folders every so often if thats a possibility. Ive heard about people using bittorrent sync and stuff like that - maybe thats an option? will freenas do that? Like I said its not a huge portion of the data, and would only need to be backed up every so often. Just trying to make sure im covered if my house burned down or something like that.

I'm not an expert at RAM, I just look at the rated speeds, and buy the cheapest ones for my budget gaming builds. For a server, I guess I would do more "due diligence".

Maybe @XavierMace or @dave_the_nerd would be willing to chime in here, both of them have way more server experience than I do.

I'm not an expert on FreeNAS. I'm exploring the options with that too. I've had an unRAID (5.x) server, with 10 HDDs in it, and I've only ever used a trial license with it so far, so seven out of the ten drives were unused.

The PSU died on my old unRAID server, so I've re-built it into a new chassis (NZXT source 210, I think), with 8 3.5" drive bays (non-hotswap), and 8 Hitachi 2TB 7200 RPM HDDs, and still booting my unRAID USB for now, but planning on wiping the whole array, and putting FreeNAS on it, primarily because it's actually free, unRAID is not. (Only the limited trial versions.)

Edit: I also own some QNAP and Lenovo ix NAS units.

 

[XavierMace]

Power supply is definitely overkill but if you already have it, no point in replacing it.

RAM choice largely depends on how much you want to pay. Cheap option is to just buy unregistered (because odds of your board supporting registered is minimal) server pull memory on ebay for cheap. Just make sure it's actual name brand stuff not the guys selling random assortment of chinese stuff. I generally buy the highest density sticks I can afford. Keep in mind ZFS likes RAM. 1GB per 1TB of storage and 1GB per 50GB of L2ARC is largely considered the "minimums". IIRC, FreeNAS enforces 8GB of RAM as an absolute minimum. I never run anything at minimum, especially not ZFS boxes. That said, I'm not aware of H81 supporting ECC. MSI definitely doesn't say anything about it for your board, so maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Using ZFS without ECC will call down the fury of the FreeNAS gods if you tell anybody you're doing it.

If you're running Dedup, up that requirement quite a bit. Personally, I'm running 64GB with 24TB (raw) storage. I've got a 32GB L2ARC SSD, and that gives me 29GB of RAM for ARC currently. That's excessive for what you're doing, but just giving you a reference. Personally, I might see what the cheapest board you can get for your processor is that will let you run 32GB of RAM.

I would also recommend spending $100 on an Intel 320 SSD to use as an SLOG. You'll get much better write performance.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Your CPU supports ECC RAM, your motherboard does not. This simplifies things.

Personally, I find ZFS really awesome, but... it's overkill in some ways, inflexible in others. For a box holding DVD rips, you're likely better off with unRAID or some boring old Linux distro.

Once you start talking SLOGs and L2ARCs, you're adding more SATA devices, which your motherboard won't support. (There's another thread about SATA controllers floating around here somewhere.)

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I think I might roll the dice with my non-ECC memory. Like I said super important stuff I can always make an occasional backup to an external HD in the unlikely event that something happens to my server. The majority is Media that is replaceable, and the other stuff I guess I can use google drive and stuff like that since its mostly pretty small. Besides - there arent many 1150 motherboards out there that I can find that will support ECC.

@VirtualLarry when you go to move all that data over - how do you plan on doing it? This is something that kinda scares me - putting ALL my data in some kind of ZFS or raid configuration, and then not being able to migrate to some other system, since I wont have enough storage to move it to in the process.

Also - what did you think of unRAID? I kinda just assumed most people were using FreeNAS, but only because thats all Ive ever heard of.

@XavierMace Im probably gonna just stick with non-ecc ram, since buying new ram would also mean a new motherboard. Is it worth it to buy another 2 sticks so Id have 16GB total? Whats the downside to not having enough on a server? Is it going to be slower? or more errors? I plan on doing memtest86 for a while to make sure the sticks are good.

I have an old intel X-25 80GB SSD laying around, would that work? And how much better write performance would I see using this over a thumb drive?

Like I said I want a decent server - but if its slightly slower but saves me money thats cool.

Im still open to buying a new board and ECC ram, I just dont know how much its gonna cost me compared to just using what I have.

Also - besides unRAID, what else should I be looking into as a server? FreeNAS is just what I assumed everyone uses, but maybe Id be better off using something else?

Thanks again.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Im still open to buying a new board and ECC ram, I just dont know how much its gonna cost me compared to just using what I have.

Hundreds of dollars.

Also - besides unRAID, what else should I be looking into as a server? FreeNAS is just what I assumed everyone uses, but maybe Id be better off using something else?

What I usually tell people (although I usually get ignored, and I'm ok with that) is that you should probably just install the OS you're most comfortable with, and configure it to do what you want it to do. Windows 7 will work fine as a NAS OS, if you want it to. You don't need a purpose-built distro.

If you don't want to use Windows, any desktop or server variety of Linux would also work. All most NAS OSes are, is a Linux or FreeBSD with a web interface. But you can also just use RDP or SSH or... well, yeah. List goes on and on.

unRAID is unique because of the oddball soft-raid implementation it uses, which is awesome if you have a big pool of mismatched-size HDDs, and which is also more power-efficient than other varieties of RAID, which work best if all the drives are spun up all the time. unRAID basically does parity RAID based on files, not blocks. So a given file is stored entirely on a specific disk - which means only the disk containing the file you're reading needs to be spun up. This gives it a -1 to maximum speed, and a +2 bonus when used for media servers.

Besides FreeNAS and unRAID, there's NAS4Free (related to FreeNAS), FlexRAID (which is a software RAID driver for Windows, and relies on Windows for implementing sharing protocols. IMO, Storage Spaces makes it redundant.). There are, of course, plenty of listicles summarizing different OS options beyond the usual. Wikipedia has its list, of course.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I have an old intel X-25 80GB SSD laying around, would that work? And how much better write performance would I see using this over a thumb drive?

I think you're misunderstanding. If you're using FreeNAS, you boot that off of a thumb drive. The SSD is for a dedicated cache drive. (Similar to - but absolutely different from - how, say, a cache SSD works with PrimoCache or FancyCache.)

Any OS that supports ZFS. (FreeNAS, along with any other recent FreeBSD or Linux derivative) can configure a ZFS storage pool with an SSD used as a cache drive. This speeds up performance in certain circumstances. However, even without the cache drive, any HDD-based pool will more than saturate a GbE connection with sequential transfers. So for a simple media server and <10 clients, it's not needed at all. (If I were using it as a storage backend for, say, a database server, I'd want to do that, because it's a big boost to random I/O.)

More practically speaking, if you want more write performance out of your file server, get more RAM. Any OS, regardless of file system type, will use RAM as a read/write cache. And it doesn't use a SATA port. But 8GB for your box is, honestly, probably fine. (Except you want to cap ZFS's ram cache size if you're trying to use the box for other things too.)

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

@dave_the_nerd Thanks for all the info! Ive used linux before, but not that great with the command line.

Would I still be about to use ZFS with Linux, and am I sacrificing reliability by going with linux? (and what about windows 10? I can get it for free pretty much - but then ZFS is definitely out i think)

My main reasons for making a server are:
-have a spare PC, with most of the components, so Id like to run a 24/7 server with it
-plex/storing all my shows/movies/home movies/etc
-torrenting box
-backing up important data, on something more redundant than a HDD and DVD/CD copies

and then maybe in the future
--video surveillance around my house
--video game server?
--VPN server
--email server maybe
--DVR (have a HDhomerun that I dont use anymore)

So with that im mind, is FreeNAS even a good idea? I was under the assumption that my data would be more secure with freenas.

Whats an example of a linux distro I can use as a server, and how would I set it up as a file server, so it were similar to freenas. Is that my best option?

 

[XavierMace]

Any OS that supports ZFS. (FreeNAS, along with any other recent FreeBSD or Linux derivative) can configure a ZFS storage pool with an SSD used as a cache drive. This speeds up performance in certain circumstances. However, even without the cache drive, any HDD-based pool will more than saturate a GbE connection with sequential transfers. So for a simple media server and <10 clients, it's not needed at all. (If I were using it as a storage backend for, say, a database server, I'd want to do that, because it's a big boost to random I/O.)

Calling it a cache drive is somewhat misleading when it comes to ZFS and there's a second advantage to it. The default behavior is to buffer writes in RAM, write it to the intent log (ZIL), then write it to the final location on disks. Without an SLOG, the ZIL lives on the same (slow) pool as your data. Which means every write operation is basically performed twice on your slow spinning disks. So in the case of a power outage, anything that was buffered in RAM but not yet dumped to the ZIL would be lost. Using an SSD (with Supercaps) allows you to move the ZIL to a substantially faster device that will still retain data in the event of a power loss thereby decreasing the size of the window for data loss in the event of a power outage. That does obviously also have the benefit of drastically increasing write speeds overall, but it does nothing for reads. If you want to boost read speeds, you'd need a second SSD to use as a L2ARC and/or more RAM.

Also, if you are going to use ZFS, keep in mind ZFS was invented by Sun and therefore Solaris and to some extent it's derivatives have a much more matured implementation.

and then maybe in the future
--video surveillance around my house
--video game server?
--VPN server
--email server maybe
--DVR (have a HDhomerun that I dont use anymore)

These days, there's very few games that let you run your own server sadly. For the older ones that do allow you to, unless you're familiar with Linux, it would be far easier to set it up on Windows. Adding DVR functionality, again would likely be easier on Windows unless you're already familiar with Linux. Also, that Pentium isn't going to be enough CPU at that point. Especially if you're going to be transcoding as well.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Calling it a cache drive is somewhat misleading when it comes to ZFS and there's a second advantage to it.

I was trying to KISS.

 

[XavierMace]

Fair, I just thought the data integrity was worth mentioning.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

@dave_the_nerd Thanks for all the info! Ive used linux before, but not that great with the command line.

Would I still be about to use ZFS with Linux, and am I sacrificing reliability by going with linux? (and what about windows 10? I can get it for free pretty much - but then ZFS is definitely out i think)

ZFS is absolutely available on Linux (included with Ubuntu 16 and later, for instance) and IME it works just fine.

It is a downstream project, so there is some feature delay: As soon as Sun releases a new ZFS feature in their dev branches, the FreeNAS people immediately incorporate it because they're insane. The FreeBSD people generally lag a bit behind the Sun people, because they're afraid of new things that aren't stable, and the ZFS-on-Linux folks generally are doing things that the FreeBSD people have already worked all the kinks out of.

is it good? Depends who you ask. The Linux guys will tell you that ZoL is 100% a-okay and ready for primetime. The FreeBSD guys will tell you that Linux isn't stable enough, so whether or not the ZFS implementation is any good is a moot point. The FreeNAS people will tell you everything else is hopelessly out of date, but you can of course hire them as a consultant, and the Sun people would like to sell you Solaris.

ZFS is not, afaik, available for Windows, but so what? Windows has its own software RAID implementation, Storage Spaces, and both NTFS (I thiiink) and ReFS (definitely!) implement journaling. So, different code, different vocabulary, similar levels of data security, features, etc.

My main reasons for making a server are:
-have a spare PC, with most of the components, so Id like to run a 24/7 server with it
-plex/storing all my shows/movies/home movies/etc
-torrenting box
-backing up important data, on something more redundant than a HDD and DVD/CD copies

and then maybe in the future
--video surveillance around my house
--video game server?
--VPN server
--email server maybe
--DVR (have a HDhomerun that I dont use anymore)

So with that im mind, is FreeNAS even a good idea? I was under the assumption that my data would be more secure with freenas.

Nah. FreeNAS is only "secure" because it uses ZFS. But here's the deal - whatever is on your NAS, you need to have it backed up somewhere else. If lightning hits your NAS, or you spill a beer on it, or your cat develops a leaky bladder, or your mom deletes your porn, it doesn't matter one bit what file system you were using.

And all that stuff is way more likely than some silent file system corruption eating your data.

So back up, back up, back up. Crashplan works well, actually.

Sidenote: You should probably have your VPN server running on your router. If you have a VPN server inside your network, you've gotta poke a hole through your router/firewall so you can hit it from outside. More annoying, and theoretically slightly less secure.

I will also second the sentiment above - with that much stuff running on a single box, you're going to need a few more CPU cores kicking around. But, what you can do is use Raspberry Pis for some of that stuff. (they make decent email servers, torrent slaves, DVRs, etc.) and use the NAS for backend storage.

Whats an example of a linux distro I can use as a server, and how would I set it up as a file server, so it were similar to freenas. Is that my best option?

Define "similar to freeNAS" in this context? None I know of have a pretty WebUI like FreeNAS or NAS4Free - unless you install WebAdmin. But even that isn't as good.

But that just determines the method you use to set it up - any Linux distro can match FreeNAS feature for feature, with the right packages installed. I usually go with Ubuntu.

 

[XavierMace]

It is a downstream project, so there is some feature delay: As soon as Sun releases a new ZFS feature in their dev branches, the FreeNAS people immediately incorporate it because they're insane. The FreeBSD people generally lag a bit behind the Sun people, because they're afraid of new things that aren't stable, and the ZFS-on-Linux folks generally are doing things that the FreeBSD people have already worked all the kinks out of.

You sure about that? It's been a while since I ran FreeNAS but it definitely lags behind Solaris. So does most of the other Solaris forks.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

You sure about that? It's been a while since I ran FreeNAS but it definitely lags behind Solaris. So does most of the other Solaris forks.

I'm being hyperbolic, sure. But relative to FreeBSD and ZoL, they're bleeding edge.

If you check their bugzilla, you'll find goofy little blips like this, as a result. And a few issues I didn't file bugs for... but they're why I use FreeBSD now. And of course, that's years in the past and I'm sure their developers are all much more responsible now, and there's probably tens of thousands of hours of testing before a new release...

If you set it up and leave it the hell alone, you won't have a problem. Don't tinker.

 

[XavierMace]

Yeah, bugs are always a risk but I was also being a bit conservative with my usage of "lags". Outside of Solaris everyone else is stuck at 28 (or lower). Encryption was added at 30. Admittedly most probably don't care to encrypt their pool, but it's worth mentioning.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

hey kind of off topic, is there anyway to stress test (probably not what its called), there hard drives that im putting in my server?

They just came in today, so before I load them up, should i hook them up and try to fill them up with crap first? Is there anything you recommend?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

hey kind of off topic, is there anyway to stress test (probably not what its called), there hard drives that im putting in my server?

They just came in today, so before I load them up, should i hook them up and try to fill them up with crap first? Is there anything you recommend?

I'll usually do a 1- or 2-pass zero-all-data on a new drive. Methods vary depending on OS.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I'll usually do a 1- or 2-pass zero-all-data on a new drive. Methods vary depending on OS.

How long does that take for a 5TB drive? Can I do all 3 at once? what software do you use?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

How long does that take for a 5TB drive? Can I do all 3 at once? what software do you use?

For 5TB? Hours. Overnight. Windows Disk Management can do something similar when you format the device (deselect "quick format"). In linux, you can also use the "dd" command from a prompt.]

Edit: yes, you can do them all at once.

 

[mxnerd]

If you are brave enough, you can try hacked Synology OS - Xpenology.