Conservatives push for Bill that would view Corporate Crimes as Honest Mistakes

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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10,130
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-collar-crime-prosecution_564a2336e4b06037734a2f84?fspxpqfr

House Republicans on Monday unveiled legislation that would decriminalize a broad swath of corporate malfeasance, a move that injects white-collar crime issues into the thus-far bipartisan agenda on criminal justice reform.

The public debate over criminal justice reform has focused on reducing severe sentences for nonviolent drug offenses. But some influential conservative voices, including the billionaire Koch brothers and the Heritage Foundation, have quietly advocated for curbing prosecution of corporate offenses as well.

The House bill would eliminate a host of white-collar crimes where the damaging acts are merely reckless, negligent or grossly negligent. If enacted, it would make it more difficult for federal authorities to pursue executive wrongdoing, from financial fraud to environmental pollution.

Department of Justice spokesman Peter Carr blasted the legislation in a statement provided to HuffPost, saying it "would create confusion and needless litigation, and significantly weaken, often unintentionally, countless federal statutes," including "those that play an important role in protecting the public welfare ... protecting consumers from unsafe food and medicine."

The House Judiciary Committee will begin marking up its criminal justice reform package, including the latest bill, on Wednesday. Chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) and Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.), the panel's top-ranking Democrat, have been working on bipartisan legislation for months.

In October, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved related reform legislation that does not include language to limit white-collar crime prosecutions, although Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) had pressed for its inclusion.

"These are not esoteric matters," said Robert Weissman, president of the consumer advocacy group Public Citizen. "There is absolutely no reason for the otherwise laudable criminal justice reform bill to contain any measure to weaken already feeble standards for corporate criminal prosecution."

Hatch and other supporters of white-collar decriminalization efforts have pushed for "mens rea" reform -- a reference to the legal standard of intent which a defendant must have in order to be convicted of a crime. While current law allows corporate crime prosecutions of high-level managers based on negligent or reckless behavior, the House legislation would require many such offenses to be "knowing" crimes, in which executives were explicitly aware of the activity being conducted by other employees. In some cases, prosecutors would also have to prove that the executives knew that the activity was illegal.

"The House language violates the basic precept that 'ignorance of the law is no defense,'" Weissman said in a written statement.

Large, complex corporations can diffuse responsibility for illegal activity, which can make it difficult for prosecutors to prove that executives knowingly and willfully violated the law. CEOs can also pressure lower-level employees to violate the law without explicitly telling them to do so -- by, say, demanding profits or other results that are impossible to reach without breaking the law. Under current law, prosecutors can bring cases on the grounds that such behavior by executives is criminally reckless or negligent, even if they cannot prove the CEO was actually aware that underlings were breaking the law to meet impossible metrics.

In practice, however, corporate crime prosecutions are already relatively rare and frequently skip over executives and other top managers. "When employees are charged, it's often lower-level employees," University of Virginia law professor Brandon Garrett told HuffPost Live in September. "More the pawns than the kingpins."

The Justice Department has been heavily criticized for its weak enforcement against corporate crimes during the Obama years. No Wall Street executives were charged for the misconduct that caused the 2008 financial crisis.

Under the House bill, high-level corporate wrongdoers would have even less to worry about.

Has anyone read about this? Or did this conveniently get pushed during the media coverage of the Paris attacks?

Conservatives are screaming muslims, planned parenthood, abortion, religion under assault from gays and blah blah blah but this one is something they're trying to sneak under people's radar..

Hopefully Obama vetos it and we keep a person in the white house that can be a true protector of main street. We really don't need have another 2008 financial crisis again, do we? Or will conservatives not stop till 99% of the population of America is below the poverty line?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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Who says the right put businesses before citizens?

Let's see if any righties here have the balls to defend this action.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Who says the right put businesses before citizens?

Let's see if any righties here have the balls to defend this action.

I agree with it in part. The current standard is stupid, you either go with a mens rea standard like this, or take the Navy approach that the ship captain is 100% responsible for whatever happens on his vessel regardless of his knowledge of it or not. The current status quo is a jumbled mess which gives too much discretion to federal appointees to retroactively decide what conduct should be prosecuted and is prime opportunity for that decision to be made on political grounds. The idea that "setting high metrics for subordinates to meet" implies the CEO is culpable for criminal acts of their underlings is fucking Orwellian thought police shit that we should be ashamed was ever thought of as proper conduct by the Department of Justice.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,902
32,033
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I agree with it in part. The current standard is stupid, you either go with a mens rea standard like this, or take the Navy approach that the ship captain is 100% responsible for whatever happens on his vessel regardless of his knowledge of it or not. The current status quo is a jumbled mess which gives too much discretion to federal appointees to retroactively decide what conduct should be prosecuted and is prime opportunity for that decision to be made on political grounds. The idea that "setting high metrics for subordinates to meet" implies the CEO is culpable for criminal acts of their underlings is fucking Orwellian thought police shit that we should be ashamed was ever thought of as proper conduct by the Department of Justice.

IANAL, but this part is clearly bullshit:

In some cases, prosecutors would also have to prove that the executives knew that the activity was illegal.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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I'm just picturing this sort of legislation rises up from the revolt against needing an army of lawyers to legally operate a lemonade stand.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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I'm just picturing this sort of legislation rises up from the revolt against needing an army of lawyers to legally operate a lemonade stand.

It arises from warped perception like your own. It's remarkable how Righties have been screaming about lack of prosecution of Wall St in the wake of the Ownership Society fiasco while trying to make such prosecutions even more difficult, don't you think?

Lemme guess- cuz freedumb & shit, right?
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
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I agree with it in part. The current standard is stupid, you either go with a mens rea standard like this, or take the Navy approach that the ship captain is 100% responsible for whatever happens on his vessel regardless of his knowledge of it or not. The current status quo is a jumbled mess which gives too much discretion to federal appointees to retroactively decide what conduct should be prosecuted and is prime opportunity for that decision to be made on political grounds. The idea that "setting high metrics for subordinates to meet" implies the CEO is culpable for criminal acts of their underlings is fucking Orwellian thought police shit that we should be ashamed was ever thought of as proper conduct by the Department of Justice.

I agree in full.

Is Chrysler's former CEOs the one's lobbying for this for bribes? Sounds like their kind of bill :D
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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This is what GOP is all about. The rest is just a distraction for useful idiots.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,848
4,778
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Corporations are people too, and deserve all the rights of personhood but none of the accountability. A business is a business damnit.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,050
30,811
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Only Republicans would push for the kind of legislation only their CEO buddies can use.

In some cases, prosecutors would also have to prove that the executives knew that the activity was illegal.

If corporations are people I thought "ignorance of the law is no excuse"
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,209
16,485
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I thought the GOP was all about personal responsibility? Corporations are people too, my friends, except when they aren't.

Repubs are all about expanding the rights of people, so long as it has a tax ID.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
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DEMS take the Amsterdam approach. They don't actually crack down on these crimes even though its illegal in the books.
 

NaughtyGeek

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,065
0
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This will pass with bipartisan support and will be signed into law by the CIC if it is what Corporate America wants. Best Government money can buy. You can try to delude yourself into thinking the Rs or Ds are somehow the bastion of everything that's right but you're only fooling yourself. Neither party will make any significant fuss over this, it's what the people who paid to put them where they are want and you aren't the one's paying to put them there.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-collar-crime-prosecution_564a2336e4b06037734a2f84?fspxpqfr



Has anyone read about this? Or did this conveniently get pushed during the media coverage of the Paris attacks?

Conservatives are screaming muslims, planned parenthood, abortion, religion under assault from gays and blah blah blah but this one is something they're trying to sneak under people's radar..

Hopefully Obama vetos it and we keep a person in the white house that can be a true protector of main street. We really don't need have another 2008 financial crisis again, do we? Or will conservatives not stop till 99% of the population of America is below the poverty line?
How can we "keep" a protector of main street when we haven't had one in multiple decades? Democrats were equally responsible as the repub slimes for the legislation removal that allowed 2008 to happen.. I worked for Citigroup so I know first hand what doors were opened for them and their competitors in 1999 to allow that BS to happen.

Let me guess though.. you read about it "somewhere"?
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
14,435
10,130
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I worked for Citigroup so I know first hand what doors were opened for them and their competitors in 1999 to allow that BS to happen.

Let me guess though.. you read about it "somewhere"?

Interesting I worked for Salomon Brothers, then Salomon Smith Barney and then Citigroup too till the layoffs.

And they all told me vote Republican too and I did... how gullible and naive I was then..

Luckily I had the skills to get a job in Singapore for 6 years till the job market here stabilized.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Interesting I worked for Salomon Brothers, then Salomon Smith Barney and then Citigroup too till the layoffs.

And they all told me vote Republican too and I did... how gullible and naive I was then..

Luckily I had the skills to get a job in Singapore for 6 years till the job market here stabilized.
So then you should be quite aware that it was in 1999 when the banking act of 1933 was overturned that allowed our employers to engage in the practices that created the crash.

Dem pres and Repub congress.. thanks slimebags.

As a side note I was a credit union member then and will be for the rest of my life, never owned a single one of their products. Part of that is my anti-big establishment nature, but the biggest part was seeing first hand the bottom feeder bullshit like Arcadia.. do you remember them? well they were in the building I was at. Sandy Weill was the biggest slime ever.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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So then you should be quite aware that it was in 1999 when the banking act of 1933 was overturned that allowed our employers to engage in the practices that created the crash.

Dem pres and Repub congress.. thanks slimebags.

As a side note I was a credit union member then and will be for the rest of my life, never owned a single one of their products.

Glass-Steagall Act right?

And now the Republicans are trying to recall Frank Dodd.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,133
44,191
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The struggle of Wall Street to insulate themselves from risk, accountability, and the rule of law continues... Probably makes lots of sense to the idiot Trump and Carson fans too, how sad is that?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the GOP wants to take us back to the looting fest of the Cheney years. To hell with the wellbeing of the country, enough damage has been repaired for us to try and do it all over again!

Show me a politician that is for this kind of nonsense, and I'll show you a corrupt scumbag that isn't fit to work in the mail room, let alone a body of Congress. Fuck these corporate whores.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
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Glass-Steagall Act right?

And now the Republicans are trying to recall Frank Dodd.
Of course they are, they want to be able to gamble it all again and be bailed out by the taxpayers because they are "too big to fail" nice insurance policy for them to have all of us suckers as a safety blanket.

I think the only candidate that would stand up and veto anything put forward by those bozo's is Sanders though, I know Clinton says she supports frank-dodd, but her actions and donors have a huge conflict of interest with what she says.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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Of course they are, they want to be able to gamble it all again and be bailed out by the taxpayers because they are "too big to fail" nice insurance policy for them to have all of us suckers as a safety blanket.

I think the only candidate that would stand up and veto anything put forward by those bozo's Sanders though, I know Clinton says she supports it, but her actions and donors have a huge conflict of interest with what she says.

I agree I think Hillary is the best pro-wall street candidate. Sanders is the best main street candidate and well the GOP is full of anarchists.

I was watching something on PBS yesterday regarding Nigeria where it's the best time for the rich, yet 77% of the country is under the poverty line where as 15 years ago it was only 23%. Guess what the rich did with their power.. they had the police forcefully evict people from their homes, demolish them and built high rise buildings and lake/ beach front property.

As the laws totally favor those in power, I can totally see that happening in Brooklyn and Queens and other places if we elect Trump. It's already happening slowly through gentrification but there's a big difference in finding a cheaper place to live vs being robbed of all your belongings by the state overnight.

Here's the link to the PBS story: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/in-africas-richest-nation-the-poor-havent-yet-profited/
 
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TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
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I agree I think Hillary is the best pro-wall street candidate. Sanders is the best main street candidate and well the GOP is full of anarchists.

I was watching something on PBS yesterday regarding Nigeria where it's the best time for the rich, yet 77% of the country is under the poverty line where as 15 years ago it was only 23%. Guess what the rich did with their power.. they had the police forcefully evict people from their homes, demolish them and built high rise buildings and lake/ beach front property. I can totally see that happening in Brooklyn and Queens if we elect Trump. It's already happening slowly through gentrification but there's a big difference in finding a cheaper place to live vs being robbed of all your belongings by the state overnight.

My family went through it in SE Asia and went through a refugee vetting process. I was the first generation born here. The last thing I want is for history to repeat itself and my parents to have go through the same thing again.
I can understand your fears for sure given your family history, but IMO Bush pretty much set it in place that the Repubs will not be in the oval office again for a long time, it will basically take a huge blunder that shifts the pendulum or of course the Dems biggest weakness, poor voter turnout.

If Millennials would just friggin vote the polls show that Sanders would actually have no problem. With mail in ballots now they don't even have to leave moms basement either ;)

I don't even think Trump will get the nod anyway, I've actually been a part of the polling process personally and it is very inaccurate compared to what happens in the booth. On top of that they start in Iowa, who is tied for the second worst record for picking US presidents. Right now what I think we have is a bunch of sensationalism around him right now because he is a polarizing person and that sells to the fear and angry bases in this country. Carson is now diving then cruz was rising now it's rubio. Either way, I cannot see even a 1% chance of whoever it is getting in because of what I stated earlier, plus in the last 8 years the shift we have seen, GenX and Millennials vote Dem more often. Muslim, Hispanic and other immigrant population is growing rapidly in the last 10 years and they mostly vote Dem also.

That is why I think it is such a shame to miss the opportunity to vote for the BEST candidate rather than a safe one.. there is no need to be safe anymore because the fears are simply unfounded now. Redistricting might get them congress and senate spots but it isn't going to work on the presidency. If I'm wrong I'll eat some serious crow and probably accelerate my application to live in New Zealand, but I really just don't see it and exactly why I don't give much time to that failed and dying party.

edit: Thanks for the link, I'll check it out :)
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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If Millennials would just friggin vote the polls show that Sanders would actually have no problem. With mail in ballots now they don't even have to leave moms basement either ;)

Yes I'm a registered independent but I think I'm going to have to change the affiliation to democrat to vote Sanders and not give Clinton a freebie.

A lot of people I think are just not interested in primaries or just don't want the voter spam/ robo calls and that's why they register independent. They're like they'll just pick the lesser of two evils come november i.e. laziness.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
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Yes I'm a registered independent but I think I'm going to have to change the affiliation to democrat to vote Sanders and not give Clinton a freebie.

A lot of people I think are just not interested in primaries or just don't want the voter spam/ robo calls and that's why they register independent. They're like they'll just pick the lesser of two evils come november i.e. laziness.
Yeah, I wish so bad Colorado was an open primary state, I know lots of people are against open primary, but I don't like being forced into party affiliation as I don't think either one represents the middle class. Sanders is an Indy and I hate that he has to run in a Democrat ticket, I know why he is doing it, but I wish we were not so party minded here and he could win under Indy for being the best candidate.
 
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