Conservatives, Liberals, and the whole idea of "accountability"

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Not to start a flame war, which I'm sure if this thread ever takes off it will, but I find myself sitting here struggling to understand this whole process of why people feel the way they do. I know I'm oversimplifying things too much, so don't complain. As you can see, "A" does not equal to conservative and "B" does not equal to liberal.

Let's let the following key be our guide:
Philosophy "A": The private party involved, who can be reasonably deligated responsibility is accountable, with freedoms to match
Philosophy "B": Due to the nature of the topic, the private party involved may not have the means economically or otherwise, to be responsible. In some cases this defaults to "society or the government must assume responsibilities."

abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons, abortion is murder. If you get pregnant, you and your partner alone are accountable for brining up the child in a positive environment.
B: Some people are too poor, and they make mistakes, and should not have to suffer the rest of their lives for it (often under the guise of "It's none of your business, its a woman's body")

guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.

welfare
A: Teach these people, give them jobs, help them find their own way out so they won't be a burden on society and the tax dollars of hard working Americans
B: Those poor poor people! Give them money and food and housing!

Social Security:
A: SS should be nothing more than supplemental income for retirement because you are responsible for saving for it yourself. Nevertheless, it ought to be there.
B: We're hardworking Americans, and the government should provide for us when we retire.
*OR* The government needs money now to fund the terrorism war, and to give tax refunds. Let's take it out of Social Security.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure. (A little idealistic, I know)
B: I shouldn't have to pay so much. (Often under the guise of "the government just needs to use it more efficiently and cut out bureaucracy and slim down")

environment
A: It's all we've got, and we're responsible for it. Lose it now, might as well lose it forever.
B: The earth can handle itself, we've got more important things to worry about.

Foreign policy
A: We are an international community. Regardless of compromises, we must maintain good allies and keep open lines of communication for the sake of solidarity.
B: We're so powerful we don't need anyone else. Lets just take care of ourselves, regardless of who we steamroll.

So as you can probably tell I subscribe to the "A" perspective in every topic, and I'd like to think that its consistently the more "accountable" of the two perspectives. Some are considered liberal, and some are considered conservative perspectives. <---- This is the part I don't get...


 

bGIveNs33

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2002
1,543
0
71
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Not to start a flame war, which I'm sure if this thread ever takes off it will, but I find myself sitting here struggling to understand this whole process of why people feel the way they do. I know I'm oversimplifying things too much, so don't complain. As you can see, "A" does not equal to conservative and "B" does not equal to liberal.

Let's let the following key be our guide:
Philosophy "A": The private party involved, who can be reasonably deligated responsibility is accountable, with freedoms to match
Philosophy "B": Due to the nature of the topic, the private party involved may not have the means economically or otherwise, to be responsible. In some cases this defaults to "society or the government must assume responsibilities."

abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons, abortion is murder. If you get pregnant, you and your partner alone are accountable for brining up the child in a positive environment.
B: Some people are too poor, and they make mistakes, and should not have to suffer the rest of their lives for it (often under the guise of "It's none of your business, its a woman's body")

guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.

welfare
A: Teach these people, give them jobs, help them find their own way out so they won't be a burden on society and the tax dollars of hard working Americans
B: Those poor poor people! Give them money and food and housing!

Social Security:
A: SS should be nothing more than supplemental income for retirement because you are responsible for saving for it yourself. Nevertheless, it ought to be there.
B: We're hardworking Americans, and the government should provide for us when we retire.
*OR* The government needs money now to fund the terrorism war, and to give tax refunds. Let's take it out of Social Security.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure. (A little idealistic, I know)
B: I shouldn't have to pay so much. (Often under the guise of "the government just needs to use it more efficiently and cut out bureaucracy and slim down")

environment
A: It's all we've got, and we're responsible for it. Lose it now, might as well lose it forever.
B: The earth can handle itself, we've got more important things to worry about.

Foreign policy
A: We are an international community. Regardless of compromises, we must maintain good allies and keep open lines of communication for the sake of solidarity.
B: We're so powerful we don't need anyone else. Lets just take care of ourselves, regardless of who we steamroll.

So as you can probably tell I subscribe to the "A" perspective in every topic, and I'd like to think that its consistently the more "accountable" of the two perspectives. Some are considered liberal, and some are considered conservative perspectives. <---- This is the part I don't get...
Your philosophies aren't consistent.

Abortion:
A: Conservative
B: Liberal

Environment
A: Liberal
B: Conservative

Or maybe I just don't understand what you are saying...
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Your philosophies aren't consistent.

Abortion:
A: Conservative
B: Liberal

Environment
A: Liberal
B: Conservative

Or maybe I just don't understand what you are saying...
Thats the whole point... "A" is what I believe. It's not necessarily liberal or conservative.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
boy you must have a tough time when it comes time to vote. you're like a republican but you're a "treehugger", and you don't mind paying taxes. or you're a democrat who doesn't value personal rights and thinks people should fend for themselves. lol, you're going to piss everyone off all of the time. which is probably satisifing in an evil way. ;)
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons, abortion is murder. If you get pregnant, you and your partner alone are accountable for brining up the child in a positive environment.
B: Some people are too poor, and they make mistakes, and should not have to suffer the rest of their lives for it (often under the guise of "It's none of your business, its a woman's body")
that's a convenient interpretation... but some believe it's better for society if children are wanted and not forced by/upon people.

btw, nothing to do with accountability or the lack thereof. choice B does not shift accountability anywhere! the woman takes the full burden. she has to get major surgery. what does society have to do? nothing, so how can you say this is shifting accountability?

guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.
seems like A shifts accountability more than B does... B is the one with personal responsibility...

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure. (A little idealistic, I know)
B: I shouldn't have to pay so much. (Often under the guise of "the government just needs to use it more efficiently and cut out bureaucracy and slim down")
nothing to do with accountability, if anything A shifts it more. where do you think your taxes go, after all...


i've tried to do this with my own thoughts before (finding method to madness), but i've come the conclusion that there are always exceptions, and trying to find a rule is more or less just trying to rationalize my beliefs, which come from god knows where (parents, society). i find that when people do this, they tend to bend the "rule" in order to make things fit, rather than really look at whether or not it fits.
 

FeathersMcGraw

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2001
4,041
1
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11

So as you can probably tell I subscribe to the "A" perspective in every topic, and I'd like to think that its consistently the more "accountable" of the two perspectives. Some are considered liberal, and some are considered conservative perspectives. <---- This is the part I don't get...
What I don't understand is why you're trying to associate a philosophy of personal responsibility as the exclusive domain of one of the two major political parties. Political philosophies are a spectrum as a necessity due to the need of both parties to court the moderate majority. It's hardly uncommon for people to favor stereotypically conservative policies in some areas while supporting stereotypically liberal ones on the other; the idea that there's a hard and fast black line separating both groups is just a machination designed by both parties to keep you from voting for "those people".
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: gopunk
abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons, abortion is murder. If you get pregnant, you and your partner alone are accountable for brining up the child in a positive environment.
B: Some people are too poor, and they make mistakes, and should not have to suffer the rest of their lives for it (often under the guise of "It's none of your business, its a woman's body")
that's a convenient interpretation... but some believe it's better for society if children are wanted and not forced by/upon people.

btw, nothing to do with accountability or the lack thereof. choice B does not shift accountability anywhere! the woman takes the full burden. she has to get major surgery. what does society have to do? nothing, so how can you say this is shifting accountability?
Yeah it does. As awful as surgery sounds, its nothing compared to the effort and commitment required to raise a child.

guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.
seems like A shifts accountability more than B does... B is the one with personal responsibility...
[/quote]
How so? One acknowledges the limitations of human nature, namely the fact that when you consider the damage that can be done with an automatic weapon for instance, the freedom to do so carries much more responsibility than you can trust in people's hands. That's also accountability. However, declaring your right and freedom to do so, does not equate to your assuming responsibilities for it nor being able to pin another weapon-owning person with his, respectively.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure. (A little idealistic, I know)
B: I shouldn't have to pay so much. (Often under the guise of "the government just needs to use it more efficiently and cut out bureaucracy and slim down")
nothing to do with accountability, if anything A shifts it more. where do you think your taxes go, after all...
[/quote]
But it shifts it to a body more capable of handling things like security, public institutions, and infrastructure, and at the same time acknowledges your limitation to provide these services.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,020
14
81
"I find myself sitting here struggling to understand this whole process of why people feel the way they do."

abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons... Wrong! For Constitutional reasons. The unborn American should have the same rights as a newborn under the constitution.

guns
A: We ought to be able to carry them, just like the criminals. That's Constitutional too!

welfare
A: Teach these people, give them jobs... That's what public education is for, and we're paying a damn good buck for that already! Handicapped folks ought to be taken care of, that's what our equally expensive safety net is for.

Social Security:
A: SS should be nothing more than supplemental income for retirement because you are responsible for saving for it yourself... It's currently a forked up system that needs fixed NOW! Privatization is only a first step. We ought to use the Public Employee Retirement System as a model.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure... If 30% total Federal, State and Local tax is all I paid, I'd be fine with that too! A Flat tax is the only "fair" tax.

environment
A: It's all we've got, and we're responsible for it. Lose it now, might as well lose it forever. There's NOTHING you do that doesn't effect the environment. We just have to weigh the good results VS the harm to determine what is acceptable. Not drilling in ANWR is over the top.

Foreign policy
A: We are an international community. Regardless of compromises, we must maintain good allies and keep open lines of communication for the sake of solidarity... AND peace, AND trade, AND cultural exchange...
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: gopunk
abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons, abortion is murder. If you get pregnant, you and your partner alone are accountable for brining up the child in a positive environment.
B: Some people are too poor, and they make mistakes, and should not have to suffer the rest of their lives for it (often under the guise of "It's none of your business, its a woman's body")
that's a convenient interpretation... but some believe it's better for society if children are wanted and not forced by/upon people.

btw, nothing to do with accountability or the lack thereof. choice B does not shift accountability anywhere! the woman takes the full burden. she has to get major surgery. what does society have to do? nothing, so how can you say this is shifting accountability?
Yeah it doea. As awful as surgery sounds, its nothing compared to the effort and commitment required to raise a child.
and this would shift responsibility to society and/or government... how?

this doesn't really shift accountability any more than say, editing a paper. obviously, abortion is much more grave than editing a paper, but i don't see how it shifts accountability any more. unless you want to do away with that as well...

guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.
seems like A shifts accountability more than B does... B is the one with personal responsibility...
How so? One acknowledges the limitations of human nature, namely the fact that when you consider the damage that can be done with an automatic weapon for instance, the freedom to do so carries much more responsibility than you can trust in people's hands. That's also accountability. However, declaring your right and freedom to do so, does not equate to your assuming responsibilities for it nor being able to pin another weapon-owning person with his, respectively.
i really don't see how that is accountability... sounds more like distrust of other people to me.

i think A shifts more because all these things sort of just ignore the fundamental causes of crime, and shift the accountability to the guns. people that would be violent with semiautos are not going to suddenly become law-abiding citizens just because it is illegal to get guns.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure. (A little idealistic, I know)
B: I shouldn't have to pay so much. (Often under the guise of "the government just needs to use it more efficiently and cut out bureaucracy and slim down")
nothing to do with accountability, if anything A shifts it more. where do you think your taxes go, after all...
But it shifts it to a body more capable of handling things like security, public institutions, and infrastructure, and at the same time acknowledges your limitation to provide these services.[/quote][/quote]

okay, i thought your thing was that shirking accountability was bad, but i guess you think it is good, as long as you deem the recipient party as "okay"? then why even go into this accountability thing...
 

bGIveNs33

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2002
1,543
0
71
Originally posted by: Ornery
"I find myself sitting here struggling to understand this whole process of why people feel the way they do."

abortion.
A: For religious and moral reasons... Wrong! For Constitutional reasons. The unborn American should have the same rights as a newborn under the constitution.

guns
A: We ought to be able to carry them, just like the criminals. That's Constitutional too!

welfare
A: Teach these people, give them jobs... That's what public education is for, and we're paying a damn good buck for that already! Handicapped folks ought to be taken care of, that's what our equally expensive safety net is for.

Social Security:
A: SS should be nothing more than supplemental income for retirement because you are responsible for saving for it yourself... It's currently a forked up system that needs fixed NOW! Privatization is only a first step. We ought to use the Public Employee Retirement System as a model.

Taxes
A: As a proud American living in the greatest most powerful country in the world, 30% of my income isn't much to ask for peace of mind, security, public institutions, and infrastructure... If 30% total Federal, State and Local tax is all I paid, I'd be fine with that too! A Flat tax is the only "fair" tax.

environment
A: It's all we've got, and we're responsible for it. Lose it now, might as well lose it forever. There's NOTHING you do that doesn't effect the environment. We just have to weigh the good results VS the harm to determine what is acceptable. Not drilling in ANWR is over the top.

Foreign policy
A: We are an international community. Regardless of compromises, we must maintain good allies and keep open lines of communication for the sake of solidarity... AND peace, AND trade, AND cultural exchange...
Wow... I like Ornery. We both seemed to be concerned with our country turning to socialism.:)
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
On the guns issue:
guns
A: If you own a gun you not only accept, but completely acknowledge and stand by the confines of its laws. It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered.
B: Most people who have anything more than a handgun will be able to attain it no matter the laws anyway, and the law keeps only the law-abiding folk from having them, thus punishing the wrong people. It is my freedom to own these weapons for whatever reason I chose.
When you say "anything more high powered" I assume you are talking about a hunting rifle as compared to a military-style/military-chambered rifle. There is one little problem with that. The current standard NATO infantry rifle round is the 5.56mm NATO, A.K.A. the 223 Remington. This is a weak round in comparision to many common hunting cartridges. Where exactly, in terms of ft-lbs, do you want to draw the line between "reasonable" and "overly high powered" cartridges? Also, how are you going to take a hunting rifle hunting if you cant take it outside your house? What about shotguns? They are excluded from your list, but they are used quite often in hunting. Actually, the shotgun question is just a peripheral question... what guns do you think should be illegal?

Including people in militias, just about anyone who comes out with a stance on guns says that people should obey the laws regarding guns (see bold). The difference is what the laws on guns should be. HCI has not, to my knowledge, met a handgun they think should be legal. OTOH, you average militia member wants to be able to go down to the local Wal-Mart and buy himself a H&K GMG and a couple thousand rounds, same day. The bolded part of your statement is redundant. Taking that out, we are left with:
"It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered."
I would appreciate it if you could clarify that statement a little, in light of my first paragraph
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
Originally posted by: fluxquantum
that's too much to read..LOL
Why didnt you just post "postcount++;"? Its as constructive, and more to the point

btw, bump
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Mookow
On the guns issue:
When you say "anything more high powered" I assume you are talking about a hunting rifle as compared to a military-style/military-chambered rifle. There is one little problem with that. The current standard NATO infantry rifle round is the 5.56mm NATO, A.K.A. the 223 Remington. This is a weak round in comparision to many common hunting cartridges. Where exactly, in terms of ft-lbs, do you want to draw the line between "reasonable" and "overly high powered" cartridges? Also, how are you going to take a hunting rifle hunting if you cant take it outside your house? What about shotguns? They are excluded from your list, but they are used quite often in hunting. Actually, the shotgun question is just a peripheral question... what guns do you think should be illegal?

Including people in militias, just about anyone who comes out with a stance on guns says that people should obey the laws regarding guns (see bold). The difference is what the laws on guns should be. HCI has not, to my knowledge, met a handgun they think should be legal. OTOH, you average militia member wants to be able to go down to the local Wal-Mart and buy himself a H&K GMG and a couple thousand rounds, same day. The bolded part of your statement is redundant. Taking that out, we are left with:
"It can be a handgun or hunting rifle, but either way there is no reason to take it outside the home or to have anything more high powered."
I would appreciate it if you could clarify that statement a little, in light of my first paragraph
Admittedly I know little about guns... But I do know the objectives which I believe in. I believe in reasonable protection in the home. (But I need this rocket launcher in case Al Qaeda attacks me! <--- is not justifiable) I also believe people have the right to hunt if they chose to.. And to that end they should be able to leave the house with a rifle. :)

So I don't know the details. But I just don't think people have justifiable reasons for legalizing things like automatic weapons or machine guns, etc...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
70,124
5,292
126
People should be held accountable. The purpose of life is to live. Wise people have been saying for centuries that money is not living. Obviously, then we need to encourage people to live. As with most efforts to guide society, governments use tax policy as incentives. The best incentive to live that I can think of, then, would be to apply the income tax to people who make over 250 thousand a year, graduating that up to a million at 99%. Those below 250 would only pay taxes to cover expenses not met by the above. In this world, those who want to work will do so because of some love for what they do. They will be living. And those who work for high incomes because they are ignorant of the meaning of life will have an incentive to do something other than waste their lives.
 

Mister T

Diamond Member
Feb 25, 2000
3,439
0
0
Moonbeam, the kind of rubbish you spew sickens me.
You want to effectively make it illegal to make more than "X" dollars a year.

I have a brilliant idea, why don't we all work the same hours and we all make the same money and have the government be our mommy and daddy... I could have sworn this has been tried before, I just can't seem it remember
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,721
1
0
Originally posted by: Mister T
Moonbeam, the kind of rubbish you spew sickens me.
You want to effectively make it illegal to make more than "X" dollars a year.

I have a brilliant idea, why don't we all work the same hours and we all make the same money and have the government be our mommy and daddy... I could have sworn this has been tried before, I just can't seem it remember

socialism 0\/\/|\|5 j00!
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY