Connect to device on another computer's ethernet port

[wrxtacy2003]

Hi,

I have a device (motion controller) attached to a computer(machine's pc) by an ethernet cable. On a separate computer (my laptop) I have the software that I can connect to and program the controller with. What i'd like to do is VPN to the machine's computer from my laptop and connect to the controller if possible?

I've been reading a lot about subnetting and lan-lan-internetworking. It seems like vpn and subnetting it would be possible. But I'm a programmer and a physicicst....I don't know much about networks, but I know I can figure it out, I just need some starting steps or an outline of what needs to be done to get me started in the right direction.

Thanks!

DK

 

[Fardringle]

Use Remote Desktop, or VNC, or Logmein, or Gotomypc, or Teamviewer, or any of the many other remote control programs to connect to the machine's computer and manage the motion controller from there.

 

[wrxtacy2003]

That requires me to have the software on every machines pc. That's over 100,000k a year in licenses that won't get used often enough to justify it.

 

[Engineer]

This CNC is on the plant (or whatever) network? I suspect that it is not on the plant network with the same ethernet port as the motion controller, as that usually is a no-no (but I could be wrong)?

If not, is is possible to get this PC (CNC) onto the network?

I have seen this done before in a warehouse control system (pass ethernet from the plant connected side to the machine connected side) but don't remember the details (Might have been ICS, Internet Connection Sharing, but not sure).

 

[wrxtacy2003]

Well the machine will be in a customers plant. The machine will have wifi which will be using the plant's internet. We already use logmein with the machines from our shop to the customer's shop. But with the new controller the software isn't free so it's not worthwhile to pay for over 100 licenses to install on every machine we ship. It doesn't get used often enough.

Also, the company who's software I use to program the controller with said this is OK if I figure it out because there is still only one license being used at a time (that is me). So it doesn't violate any software license policies.

 

[wrxtacy2003]

i was thinking about using VNC since it's open source and coding the routing of the machines ethernet port to my pc, but I wouldn't know where to begin with that type of progamming. I'm sure I could figure it out but if there is something already made (like vpn) to do the same job, then there's no reason to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Engineer]

There are gateways for industrial equipment that costs around $500. They connect to the internet to a central server (run by the company that makes them). They stay logged in all the time.

When you want to connect, you log into the company's server and it will create a virtual ethernet port from your local PC to the connected device (i.e. just like you are there).

I just don't remember the name of the product right now but for $500 each, that sounds very reasonable.

Is the WIFI just a card built into the PC or is it a wireless router like device? If it is in the PC, you could get a VPN into PC and then route between the two NIC's (the wireless NIC and the hardwired NIC that goes to the motion controller). This can be difficult to get going depending on your customer. Much easier to get the customer to give the $500 device above access to the internet and then it's easy.

I'll try to find out more (unless you're not interested in that option).

Edit: I think this is the company but not sure until I talk to the guy that sells this stuff: http://www.secomea.com/industry/products/sitemanager/

 

[wrxtacy2003]

it is a good option, but still 500K a year Minimum. I'd rather explore other options first and if I truly can't figure it out I'll have to do something else. It would be cheaper to fly me out to the plant for a day to do the debugging. I'd have to fly out to 100 different customers a year to make it worth wile. I probably won't even have to do it 20 times.

 

[Engineer]

i was thinking about using VNC since it's open source and coding the routing of the machines ethernet port to my pc, but I wouldn't know where to begin with that type of progamming. I'm sure I could figure it out but if there is something already made (like vpn) to do the same job, then there's no reason to reinvent the wheel.

If there are two network cards into the PC and you can connect to one of the, I don't think that you need to do that. I think that one port can be passed (routed) to the other one. As I said, I've seen this done before (but it may require some route commands from your work laptop to get it to work properly - but that's above my ability at this point).

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Create-a-network-bridge

By the way, you didn't mention whether the wireless network was on the same Ethernet connection as the motion controller or was a separate card in the controlling PC?

Also, what operating system is on the CNC PC? Windows NT (often or some stripped down varient) or something else?

 

[wrxtacy2003]

The pc's have windows XP. The ethernet card is built into the pc. There is no wireless card built into the pc's. The custumer's either run an ethernet cable to the spare port or they use a wireless usb stick.

 

[Engineer]

The pc's have windows XP. The ethernet card is built into the pc. There is no wireless card built into the pc's. The custumer's either run an ethernet cable to the spare port or they use a wireless usb stick.

Seems like they have two NICs. If that's the case, you should be able to bridge the connection. I think you can also bridge the connection between the wireless USB stick and the Ethernet port (to the motion controller) too but not 100% sure. It would still require a TRUE VPN connection (not Teamviewer) into that PC and that would be dependent upon the plant IT people (and it can be a bitch!).

Yes, you can bridge the USB stick: http://www.ehow.com/how_5325974_bridge-usb-network-adapter.html

Edit: When you say spare port, do you mean on a network SWITCH or another Ethernet card in the PC? If it is a SWITCH, you are golden. Just get a VPN into the plant and the motion controller would be on the same network switch.

 

[wrxtacy2003]

No, its another card on the pc (or another port on the same card...whatever). Yea, I just realized I'm going to need plant IT people to set up the VPN....and majority of our customers don't have IT....some of them can barely use a computer haha.

 

[Engineer]

No, its another card on the pc (or another port on the same card...whatever). Yea, I just realized I'm going to need plant IT people to set up the VPN....and majority of our customers don't have IT....some of them can barely use a computer haha.

That's going to make it tough then. Teamviewer is one thing but a VPN is another. Not sure if Teamviewer has any sort of passthrough or not.

You mentioned VNC? If you're using VNC, do you not have a VPN connection to the PC?

 

[Engineer]

Teamviewer VPN might be an option:

http://www.smartpctricks.com/2013/05/Setup-Configure-Free-VPN.html

 

[wrxtacy2003]

I didn't look into your PM yet. I will later today.

I'm looking into VNC because all of the framework for connecting to pc's over the internet is already there. Since the source code is open, I was going to see if i could figure out "routing" the ethernet card to my pc over the internet...if possible.

Also, I forgot. With VPN, we plan on making a special account for the machines, so that I can log in with "log me in" or soemthing similar and use the machine to connect to my pc which will be on my plant's server. This way we don't have to give the customer's a username and password to VPN to us. I'll just set up the VPN connection from their pc remotely from my pc. This way maybe we can VPN directly to my computer. Maybe that will work?

I plan on doing some tests today with my pc and my wife's pc connected to the controller I have at home. See if VPN even works straight away or if I'll have to do some more messing around once I set up the vpn.

thanks for all you help.

 

[wrxtacy2003]

I think your PM might be the solution. THANKS!

I'll test out the VPN tonight and see if I can get that to work first.

 

[Fardringle]

That requires me to have the software on every machines pc. That's over 100,000k a year in licenses that won't get used often enough to justify it.

No it doesn't. You have the control software on the computer that is actually attached to the controller. Then other computers on the network connect remotely to that one controller computer and manage the controller from there. You only need the software on that one machine.

 

[wrxtacy2003]

No it doesn't. You have the control software on the computer that is actually attached to the controller. Then other computers on the network connect remotely to that one controller computer and manage the controller from there. You only need the software on that one machine.

Yea and that's every customer's machine. We ship around 100 machines every year.

 

[Engineer]

Yea and that's every customer's machine. We ship around 100 machines every year.

That would make the remote gateway that I listed for $500 = $50,000, not $500,000 as you posted above!

Regardless, I hope the VPN works for you from Team Viewer.

Make sure to give updates!

<----- Electrical / Controls Engineer - I do controls for a living and always like reading about this kind of thing (although I admit that I don't have much network experience either...just enough to get by).

 

[wrxtacy2003]

Holy S***.... embarrassingly bad math.

I'll definitely give updates when I figure it out.

DK

 

[Imran520]

For using many ports there will be effective for ethernet.

 

[QuietDad]

I don't know how you do your licensing , but let me see if I get this straight. You have one motion controller attached to one PC that can be controlled by one person who is looking for a way to connect to it on a network. If you install one copy of any solution on the Motion Controller's PC I don't see how every other PC on the network including 100's per year you ship even get into the equation. I agree with Fardringle that only one license is required here. If you want to make every computer in the plant access it, that's a whole different story here. If it were my issue, I would work out a usage license and not a seat license.

 

[Engineer]

For those that don't understand, industrial programming software is very, very, very difficult to work with on the licensing front. The programming software may run into multiple thousands of dollars and they are damn picky with it, employing schemes on license checkouts over the web and other damn stuff that aggrivates the living hell out of me (I know - I cloned my work drive over the weekend and am in the process of getting the licenses to work with the new drive). It's not quite as simple as many think - and it 's expensive as hell.

 

[QuietDad]

I've worked with licensing contracts from personal to Small Business to Fortune 500. For Industrial programming to Human Resources. They can write whatever they want and you can agree to be bound by it, you can negotiate a better deal, or you can shop elsewhere. At the worst possible case a license is bound to one user on one machine. It is illegal to enforce a license signed for one machine to be licensed on every computer in your network. It is not illegal for them to verify it is not installed on any other equipment...

If indeed it's licensed on one PC hooked to the equipment, they can not license how you get to it as long as the program runs on the PC it's licensed to. VNC/remote desktop/Logmein/et al is nothing but a fancy keyboard for this purpose. If on the other hand, your connecting to the PC to run the actual program from the remote computer, then a second license would be required.

You need to talk to the vendor. Depending how small they are you may be able to fix all of this.

 

[Engineer]

He's not saying that the software must be on every PC on the network, he's saying that it's not practical to place the programming software for the machine on the PC that's on that machine, for every one that they build and ship. It's just not cost effective to place the 'programming' software on there to just need to use it 20 times per year for all machines out there. However, if he can VPN into the PC and then bridge to the motion controller, he can connect his laptop programming software to the controller remotely to diagnose issues and make changes. If it were $20 for software, sure....but even if you negotiate the software down to half price, depending on what it is, could be $1,000 per machine, or $100,000 per year just to have the software on the PC and 'possibly' use it.

That would be like me paying $3,500 for every RSLogix5000 PLC software for every machine that our company builds, just so we could remote into it to make change using VNC or some remote desktop. Why do that if we can VPN and program remotely over that VPN like we were sitting in front of the machine (and I'm not talking about VNC, I'm talking about true VNP with the software connected to the machine remotely). The PC on the machine doesn't need the programming software to run, just to setup / make changes / diagnose the motion controller so no need to spend money on it if you can just buy your copy and remote into it. Now if the customer wants it, that's another story but they will usually want it on an office laptop or maintenance laptop, not the actual PC on the machine.

[laptop with programming software] -----> [VPN] -------internet------> [VPN]-----> [PC on machine] [bridge connection] ----> [Motion controller]

What you're saying is equivalent to buying a full copy of Visual Studio for every program that ships when you only need the runtime on the PC to run the programs and use Visual Studio on a programming PC to make and deploy programs / changes.