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Congratulations to the anti-vaccination crowd!

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,523
4,198
126
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm
you can lead a horse to water...

No shit.
New evidence has appeared in this thread to indicate it also applies to horses asses.

xj0hnx clearly has herd immunity to reason.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
And? The article, and the thread title are misleading at best, as there's nothing in this article to even begin to suggest that this cases were because of the loony anti-vaccination crowd.
Amused and others have spelled it out pretty succinctly. It isn't very flattering that you are either unable or unwilling to understand.

Assume you have a population of 10 people. 1 is too young to be immunized against "disease A" and the remaining 9 are not.

Scenario 1:

If all 9 of the individuals who can be immunized against "disease A" have received their vaccinations, they cannot contract the disease and, thus, cannot pass it on to individual #1 who cannot be immunized. If everyone who is able to be immunized against "disease A" does so, eventually the disease will have no viable hosts and will cease to exist.


Scenario 2:

Let's say, however, that individuals 9 and 10 refuse to be immunized. Since they are able to contract the disease, it is now possible for them to pass it on to individual 1. Not only that, but since the disease has people in which to incubate and propagate, the disease will persist and threaten all future offspring who are too young to be immunized.


Again, it cannot be stated strongly enough that if any of the 9 individuals who can be immunized refuse the inoculation, then it becomes all the more likely that the individual who is too young to be immunized will be exposed to the disease.

To put it in computer terms, imagine an enclosed network of 10 computers. 1 computer, for whatever reason, is not yet able to have anti-virus software installed while the other 9 can. If the other 9 computers have anti-virus software installed they will be unable to be infected by "virus A" and, thus, there is no way the virus can be caught by computer #1.

If two negligent or ignorant admins opt not to install anti-virus on computers 9 and 10, now it is possible for "virus A" to infect them and to be passed on to computer 1.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Not that I support the loony anti-vaccination crowd but ...

"All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"

A little honesty goes a long way. In other words, the deaths don't have anything to do with the anti-vaccination crowd, and your thread title is a misleading lie.
In the interest of a little honesty, here is the full context from which you selectively quoted,
"All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness, which is why parents and caretakers are being urged to get booster shots. Typically, babies are given a series of vaccinations, then receive booster shots between ages 4 and 6 and again after age 10."

Its not as if the babies are to young to be immunized as your post seems to suggest. Its just that they have not yet reached the age to get their booster shots to be fully immunized.

You see, complete honesty goes a longer way...


..
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,733
3,180
126
Not that I support the loony anti-vaccination crowd but ...

"All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"

A little honesty goes a long way. In other words, the deaths don't have anything to do with the anti-vaccination crowd, and your thread title is a misleading lie.
No a little honesty on your part goes a long way.....

Link please to support your claim that -- "All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Try again.
Your math is good, but your reasoning is severely flawed. The overall percentage you calculate is valid only if you posit that the remaining 7047 schools have a vaccination rate of 100%.
That was my first thought as well...the math didn't quite add up.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
No a little honesty on your part goes a long way.....

Link please to support your claim that -- "All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"
Please link support to your claim that the "anti-vaccination crowd" is why these babies died.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
54,097
7,492
126
Please link support to your claim that the "anti-vaccination crowd" is why these babies died.
http://www.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

Our findings provide strong evidence of a causal relation
between movements against whole-cell pertussis vaccine
and pertussis epidemics
Whereas our study focused on morbidity following
anti-vaccine movements against whole-cell vaccines,
other reports indicate that pertussis mortality also
increased. Excess sudden postperinatal deaths were
inversely related to vaccination coverage during pertussis
outbreaks in several observational studies and in two
ecological studies—one in the UK41 and the other in
Scandinavia.
Now seriously. Just stop. You're embarassing yourself.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,988
9
81
Please link support to your claim that the "anti-vaccination crowd" is why these babies died.
Do you win money for being retarded or what? Seriously, if you don't understand something even after it's been explained in layman's terms, then you're better off just STFU.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Not that I support the loony anti-vaccination crowd but ...

"All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"

A little honesty goes a long way.

In other words, the deaths don't have anything to do with the anti-vaccination crowd, and your thread title is a misleading lie.
That's all you have is lies.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Not that I support the loony anti-vaccination crowd but ...

"All of the whooping cough-related deaths in California occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness"

A little honesty goes a long way. In other words, the deaths don't have anything to do with the anti-vaccination crowd, and your thread title is a misleading lie.
How many of those would have been prevented if there had been proper herd immunity in the community?
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
What They Don’t Tell You About Vaccination Dangers Can Kill You or Ruin Your Life
By Russell L. Blaylock, M.D (neurosurgeon)
http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock34.html

Do Vaccines Increase Your Risk of Disability and Dying?
By Jerry Tennant, MD (opthamologist)
http://files.me.com/jltennant/4qtfro

Nut jobs looking for more nuts...


"Blaylock has endorsed views inconsistent with the scientific consensus,"
Shocking that he is also a right wing religious nut and has been on the 700 club and other nut shows.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,598
154
106
The very fact that kids/anyone is GETTING Pertussis means that herd immunity has not been reached. WHY has herd immunity not been reached? Because people are not getting vaccinated.

This IS because of anti-vaccination, John. This is EXACTLY what happens when vaccination rates dip below the threshold. And that is exactly what the anti-vaccination crowd has done: Lower immunization rates.

The article and thread title are FAR from misleading. They speak to the very simple fact that anti-vaccination movements lower herd immunity. And lower herd immunity means greater risk to those most susceptible, i.e. infants who have not yet been vaccinated.
Herd immunity is a myth. Even if you can vaccinate world-wide 100% of the population, there can still be still non-human resevoirs of disease.

But I digress...100% worldwide vaccination is NOT possible, and with the globalized economy and travel, there will still be unvaccinated people from outside civilization who can spread the disease to unvaccinated children.



Amused and others have spelled it out pretty succinctly. It isn't very flattering that you are either unable or unwilling to understand.

Assume you have a population of 10 people. 1 is too young to be immunized against "disease A" and the remaining 9 are not.

Scenario 1:

If all 9 of the individuals who can be immunized against "disease A" have received their vaccinations, they cannot contract the disease and, thus, cannot pass it on to individual #1 who cannot be immunized. If everyone who is able to be immunized against "disease A" does so, eventually the disease will have no viable hosts and will cease to exist.


Scenario 2:

Let's say, however, that individuals 9 and 10 refuse to be immunized. Since they are able to contract the disease, it is now possible for them to pass it on to individual 1. Not only that, but since the disease has people in which to incubate and propagate, the disease will persist and threaten all future offspring who are too young to be immunized.


Again, it cannot be stated strongly enough that if any of the 9 individuals who can be immunized refuse the inoculation, then it becomes all the more likely that the individual who is too young to be immunized will be exposed to the disease.

To put it in computer terms, imagine an enclosed network of 10 computers. 1 computer, for whatever reason, is not yet able to have anti-virus software installed while the other 9 can. If the other 9 computers have anti-virus software installed they will be unable to be infected by "virus A" and, thus, there is no way the virus can be caught by computer #1.

If two negligent or ignorant admins opt not to install anti-virus on computers 9 and 10, now it is possible for "virus A" to infect them and to be passed on to computer 1.

another Myth being propogated.
Additionally, being vaccinated does not mean you CANT contract the disease, it merely means your body recognizes it and can mount an effective defense much quicker. Being vaccinated does not stop you from contracting the disease, or being a carrier, and thus still able to spread the disease.


Again
herd immunity is a myth. Polio/smallpox are the often cited cases of herd immunity... except those are the luckiest of unlikely. MOST Diseases have resevoires outside the vaccination area. Diseases can spread from other species... Most of our influenza comes from Chickens and Pigs. Whooping cough infects primates... you going to vaccinate every monkey ape and gorilla in the world too??



How many of those would have been prevented if there had been proper herd immunity in the community?
everyone keeps spouting on about herd immunity. Herd immunity is a freaking myth from the 1960s. Any real science discredits herd immunity in 10 seconds.
 
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child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Herd immunity is a myth. Even if you can vaccinate world-wide 100% of the population, there can still be still non-human resevoirs of disease.

But I digress...100% worldwide vaccination is NOT possible, and with the globalized economy and travel, there will still be unvaccinated people from outside civilization who can spread the disease to unvaccinated children.

another Myth being propogated.
Additionally, being vaccinated does not mean you CANT contract the disease, it merely means your body recognizes it and can mount an effective defense much quicker. Being vaccinated does not stop you from contracting the disease, or being a carrier, and thus still able to spread the disease.

Again
herd immunity is a myth. Polio/smallpox are the often cited cases of herd immunity... except those are the luckiest of unlikely. MOST Diseases have resevoires outside the vaccination area. Diseases can spread from other species... Most of our influenza comes from Chickens and Pigs. Whooping cough infects primates... you going to vaccinate every monkey ape and gorilla in the world too??

everyone keeps spouting on about herd immunity. Herd immunity is a freaking myth from the 1960s. Any real science discredits herd immunity in 10 seconds.
Links to said science?

Or did you just get back from a Jenny McCarthy rally, see this thread, and decide to spew lies and half truths all over it like an excited teenager watching a porno?

"Cannot contract the disease" should probably read as "cannot acquire the disease to a level of infection that would become contagious."

Naturally, some diseases can survive in open air, in other species, etc. however the main method of infection is from intraspecies contact.

You cannot seriously believe that there is any benefit to a completely unvaccinated population vs. one where those who can be vaccinated have done so at a near 100% level.

If so, our conversation is over because, like a religious zealot, no amount of facts will dissuade you otherwise and we can only hope natural selection can take its course.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Herd immunity is a myth. Even if you can vaccinate world-wide 100% of the population, there can still be still non-human resevoirs of disease.

But I digress...100% worldwide vaccination is NOT possible, and with the globalized economy and travel, there will still be unvaccinated people from outside civilization who can spread the disease to unvaccinated children.






another Myth being propogated.
Additionally, being vaccinated does not mean you CANT contract the disease, it merely means your body recognizes it and can mount an effective defense much quicker. Being vaccinated does not stop you from contracting the disease, or being a carrier, and thus still able to spread the disease.


Again
herd immunity is a myth. Polio/smallpox are the often cited cases of herd immunity... except those are the luckiest of unlikely. MOST Diseases have resevoires outside the vaccination area. Diseases can spread from other species... Most of our influenza comes from Chickens and Pigs. Whooping cough infects primates... you going to vaccinate every monkey ape and gorilla in the world too??





everyone keeps spouting on about herd immunity. Herd immunity is a freaking myth from the 1960s. Any real science discredits herd immunity in 10 seconds.
OK then show us this "real science". Back it up.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
@sao123

How do you explain the sudden increase of these diseases for which we've had effective vaccination programs for decades? Primates breeding out of control in America? Please.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,559
66
91
Herd immunity is a myth.
Herd immunity is a well accepted scientific fact. You trow your credibility right out the window when you write something like this and most people won't read anything you write past this statement.

Here is some info about herd immunity:
From http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-herd-immunity.htm

"In immunology, herd immunity refers to a situation in which a high percentage of a population is immune to a disease, essentially stopping the disease in its tracks because it cannot find new hosts. You may also hear this concept referred to as “community immunity.” The threshold for herd immunity varies, depending on the disease, with more virulent agents requiring vaccination of a higher percentage of the population to crate the desired herd immunity. In addition to being used in disease prevention, community immunity is also utilized to fight ongoing outbreaks.

Most vaccination policies are focused on creating herd immunity. Many countries require vaccinations in childhood, for example, protecting children from common diseases and ensuring that when these diseases enter the population, they cannot prey on children or adults, who have been previously vaccinated or exposed to the disease. The creation of herd immunity is especially important in crowded environments which facilitate the spread of disease, like schools.

Immunologists try to prevent the outbreak of diseases by creating herd immunity, but they are not always successful. Sometimes a disease mutates or is entirely new, or a batch of vaccinations is faulty, or a large percentage of the population fails to get vaccinated, creating a situation in which an outbreak can occur, because much of the population is vulnerable. In the event of an outbreak of a major disease, agencies like the World Health Organization can dispatch teams within days to figure out the cause of the outbreak and develop a vaccine, in the hopes of creating herd immunity to halt the outbreak in its tracks.
For some diseases, herd immunity thresholds are as low as 50%, especially when combined with good hygiene. In other instances, up to 90% of the population may need to be vaccinated to create the desired herd immunity. It is also extremely important to receive regular boosters, as some vaccines lose their efficacy over time, leaving people vulnerable to an outbreak. Herd immunity led to the eradication of smallpox, and it explains why diseases such as poliodiphtheria are rare in developed nations with established vaccination policies.
and "

I also did a search for herd immunity myth and all I got was a listing of waco "natural remedy" and anti vaccine web sites. Places like: The secrets of natural healing, The danger of over vaccination, Raising a vaccine free child and on and on.



Let me conclude: YOU'RE AN IDIOT!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,523
4,198
126
Herd immunity is a well accepted scientific fact. You trow your credibility right out the window when you write something like this and most people won't read anything you write past this statement.

Here is some info about herd immunity:
From http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-herd-immunity.htm

"In immunology, herd immunity refers to a situation in which a high percentage of a population is immune to a disease, essentially stopping the disease in its tracks because it cannot find new hosts. You may also hear this concept referred to as “community immunity.” The threshold for herd immunity varies, depending on the disease, with more virulent agents requiring vaccination of a higher percentage of the population to crate the desired herd immunity. In addition to being used in disease prevention, community immunity is also utilized to fight ongoing outbreaks.

Most vaccination policies are focused on creating herd immunity. Many countries require vaccinations in childhood, for example, protecting children from common diseases and ensuring that when these diseases enter the population, they cannot prey on children or adults, who have been previously vaccinated or exposed to the disease. The creation of herd immunity is especially important in crowded environments which facilitate the spread of disease, like schools.

Immunologists try to prevent the outbreak of diseases by creating herd immunity, but they are not always successful. Sometimes a disease mutates or is entirely new, or a batch of vaccinations is faulty, or a large percentage of the population fails to get vaccinated, creating a situation in which an outbreak can occur, because much of the population is vulnerable. In the event of an outbreak of a major disease, agencies like the World Health Organization can dispatch teams within days to figure out the cause of the outbreak and develop a vaccine, in the hopes of creating herd immunity to halt the outbreak in its tracks.
For some diseases, herd immunity thresholds are as low as 50%, especially when combined with good hygiene. In other instances, up to 90% of the population may need to be vaccinated to create the desired herd immunity. It is also extremely important to receive regular boosters, as some vaccines lose their efficacy over time, leaving people vulnerable to an outbreak. Herd immunity led to the eradication of smallpox, and it explains why diseases such as poliodiphtheria are rare in developed nations with established vaccination policies.
and "

I also did a search for herd immunity myth and all I got was a listing of waco "natural remedy" and anti vaccine web sites. Places like: The secrets of natural healing, The danger of over vaccination, Raising a vaccine free child and on and on.



Let me conclude: YOU'RE AN IDIOT!
He could walk down the middle of a freeway and not get hit, because, because, well because all other people on earth may have died from an alien invasion, it could be 3 am and nobody is on the road, the freeway may blocked by an accident or he could beat million to one odds. From this it is only logical to conclude that herd immunity is a myth. Something that only increases your chances to 99 percent isn't a guarantee. And weasels can slip out of most anything especially if that weasel is their thinking.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,598
154
106
Links to said science?

Or did you just get back from a Jenny McCarthy rally, see this thread, and decide to spew lies and half truths all over it like an excited teenager watching a porno?

"Cannot contract the disease" should probably read as "cannot acquire the disease to a level of infection that would become contagious."

Naturally, some diseases can survive in open air, in other species, etc. however the main method of infection is from intraspecies contact.

You cannot seriously believe that there is any benefit to a completely unvaccinated population vs. one where those who can be vaccinated have done so at a near 100% level.

If so, our conversation is over because, like a religious zealot, no amount of facts will dissuade you otherwise and we can only hope natural selection can take its course.

Wow... assume much = make an ass out of you??
I am 100% for every individual to be vaccinated.

But to blame the death of infants too young to be vaccinated on the idea that herd immunity hasnt been achieved is 100% BS.

Even is 100% of all the adults were immunized, it IS STILL POSSIBLE that these infants could still have contracted this disease.

Herd immunity requires the disease to have exactly only 1 host type... humans.
Diseases which can spread from mice, rats, mesquitos, chickens, swine, cattle, cats, dogs, etc will never achieve herd immunity because the resevoirs can never be eliminated.
 
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sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,598
154
106
Herd immunity is a well accepted scientific fact. You trow your credibility right out the window when you write something like this and most people won't read anything you write past this statement.

Here is some info about herd immunity:
From http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-herd-immunity.htm

"In immunology, herd immunity refers to a situation in which a high percentage of a population is immune to a disease, essentially stopping the disease in its tracks because it cannot find new hosts. You may also hear this concept referred to as “community immunity.” The threshold for herd immunity varies, depending on the disease, with more virulent agents requiring vaccination of a higher percentage of the population to crate the desired herd immunity. In addition to being used in disease prevention, community immunity is also utilized to fight ongoing outbreaks.

Most vaccination policies are focused on creating herd immunity. Many countries require vaccinations in childhood, for example, protecting children from common diseases and ensuring that when these diseases enter the population, they cannot prey on children or adults, who have been previously vaccinated or exposed to the disease. The creation of herd immunity is especially important in crowded environments which facilitate the spread of disease, like schools.
Immunologists try to prevent the outbreak of diseases by creating herd immunity, but they are not always successful. Sometimes a disease mutates or is entirely new, or a batch of vaccinations is faulty, or a large percentage of the population fails to get vaccinated, creating a situation in which an outbreak can occur, because much of the population is vulnerable. In the event of an outbreak of a major disease, agencies like the World Health Organization can dispatch teams within days to figure out the cause of the outbreak and develop a vaccine, in the hopes of creating herd immunity to halt the outbreak in its tracks.
For some diseases, herd immunity thresholds are as low as 50%, especially when combined with good hygiene. In other instances, up to 90% of the population may need to be vaccinated to create the desired herd immunity. It is also extremely important to receive regular boosters, as some vaccines lose their efficacy over time, leaving people vulnerable to an outbreak. Herd immunity led to the eradication of smallpox, and it explains why diseases such as poliodiphtheria are rare in developed nations with established vaccination policies. and "

I also did a search for herd immunity myth and all I got was a listing of waco "natural remedy" and anti vaccine web sites. Places like: The secrets of natural healing, The danger of over vaccination, Raising a vaccine free child and on and on.



Let me conclude: YOU'RE AN IDIOT!

I bolded the reason why herd immunity fails for most diseases. There are hosts and resevoirs OUTSIDE of the human race, outside of the reaches of your vaccines.
Should everyone get vaccinated? Yes!

Does herd immunity completely eliminate diseases or stop diseases from infecting unvaccinated individuals. HELL NO.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Wow... assume much = make an ass out of you??
I am 100% for every individual to be vaccinated.

But to blame the death of infants too young to be vaccinated on the idea that herd immunity hasnt been achieved is 100% BS.

Even is 100% of all the adults were immunized, it IS STILL POSSIBLE that these infants could still have contracted this disease.
I saw you made a post, prepared for the fail, and you didn't disappoint!

Sure, it's mathematically POSSIBLE for an infant to contract whooping cough if 100% of all other vaccination candidates have been fully vaccinated. However, the risk in that scenario is astronomically minute compared to the risk in a scenario where only 80% (arbitrary number, pick anything you like below 100% and the odds increase exponentially) are vaccinated.

You've made a bold claim regarding herd immunity and have been invited to share any science to back it up. Until you can provide this, we can only assume you're simply promoting your own opinions as fact.
 

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