Confusion about dual booting Win7

[tinpanalley]

I'm reading so many contradictory things and others that reference software I've never heard of like EasyBCD.

I would like to find a way to run Windows 7 on the same system that I currently have 10 installed. It's on an SSD that has room for a small partition if necessary, if not I have plenty of other HDDs. I have literally got two programs that need running on Win7 so I don't even need the 7 installation to do anything more than that. Is there not a simple way to do this? I've been reading for hours, thought it would be straightforward but apparently 7 won't run at all on a system that already has 10?

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[lxskllr]

Easiest would be a virtual machine if that works for your uses. Quick and dirty would be unhook the win10 drive, install 7 to a different drive, rehook 10, and use bios to select. Otherwise, I've been out of windows for awhile, so I'm not sure the proper way. Install order for multiboot used to be old windows-new windows-gnu/linux. It could be done out of order, but was much harder. Dunno if things have gotten better.

 

[tinpanalley]

Easiest would be a virtual machine if that works for your uses.

I'd be willing to try a virtual machine. Any recommendations? Any down sides?

 

[lxskllr]

I'd be willing to try a virtual machine. Any recommendations? Any down sides?

I always use VirtualBox. Downsides are performance isn't as good as native hardware, and since it's abstracted, glitches can be harder to track down. IOW, you don't want to run the latest 3D game in a vm, but an older game might work fine. It's better suited to 2D desktop type software. Can't hurt to try. It only costs time. If you aren't familiar with virtual machines, it's a neat thing to do just to see a computer running in a computer.

 

[tinpanalley]

IOW, you don't want to run the latest 3D game in a vm, but an older game might work fine.

This is for an old program that doesn't run on 10 anymore but also for a game from 2006 that needed a Pentium 3 and DirectX 9. So does Virtualbox need me to own Windows 7? And since I upgraded to my current 10 from the 7 I first installed when I built it, will I be able to use that 7 installation again or is that key expired?

 

[Billb2]

Maybe I can add a little clarity here..............

Setting up dual booting is included in all Windows versions. The new version's Windows Install program "sees" the old version and automatically sets up dual booting for you.

When any OS installs it write a tiny piece of code to the first sector of the drive that is set as the Boot Device in the BIOS. Then, whenever the computer starts up, it loads that tiny piece of code into memory and runs it. The code tells the computer the location of the files (the Windows folder) that it needs to load Windows.

The problem is that an older version installer (Win 7) can't "see" a newer version (Win 10) that's already there. When WIn 7's installer code was written they had no idea what Win 10's code would look like so couldn't write an installer that would detect Win 10. So, if you install an older version of windows (ie Win 7) on top of a newer version (ie. Win 10) the newer version goes away - It's still there, just not boot-able anymore

That's why you need BCDEdit, or the much easier to use EasyBCD.
They can re-write that first sector so it sees both the newer and older Windows that are installed no matter what order you installed them in - it can "see" all the Windows OS's on a computer and write the correct code to the first sector of the boot device so they are all boot-able again.

Many people confuse Boot Device and where they install Windows. The Boot Device (boot drive) is always the device listed as Boot Device in the BIOS, but you can "install to" (ie put the Windows folder) on any drive/partition you want.

 

[lxskllr]

This is for an old program that doesn't run on 10 anymore but also for a game from 2006 that needed a Pentium 3 and DirectX 9. So does Virtualbox need me to own Windows 7? And since I upgraded to my current 10 from the 7 I first installed when I built it, will I be able to use that 7 installation again or is that key expired?

If your host system is capable, a vm should work. Regarding licensing, you need a license from MS for any machine you run, whether it's physical or virtual hardware. You should be able to test it out without entering a key. If it works, you can either buy a license, or perhaps run it without a key, and dealing with the restrictions. MS always changes what those restrictions are, but perhaps it'll be sufficient for your needs. Also, consider an older Windows if you have a license. You probably don't need security or updates for running older software, but you'll have to judge based on your exact needs. I use a 2kpro vm at work for a single piece of software. Handles my needs perfectly.

 

[RLGL]

Hyper V is part of 10. Just takes a few minutes to set up. Install the OS and away you go.
EasyBCD has been around for years, it's a very good boot manager

 

[JackMDS]

You can try VM first.

Does Not do well you can erase it and go with two partitions and EZBCD.

 

[tinpanalley]

Whew, this is a lot of info, I really appreciate it. I'm not quite sure how any of this VM works but I'll look into it. It's fine to hear everyone talking about which one they use and how software X is the way to go but not having heard of ANY of them I have to take the time to actually look into each one and understand what it does. I can build a computer with my eyes closed but emulating OSes and partitioning for dual boots isn't something I've ever had to do.

But virtual machine or dual booting seem like the most reasonable options. Of course, as long as I still have extra data and power cable connections in my desktop. Because I have a handful of HDDs not in use that could easily serve the purpose and I have a couple of Windows 7 keys I no longer use, even one version of 7 Professional complete with disk. That went on an old laptop once (that laptop is gone).

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I should try VM software -- never had a need, and now that I'm old -- lost my "edge" and venture into the "unknown" less than before. . .

It is possible to add Win 7 after the Win 10 has been installed, and in some ways, this is preferable. It becomes a lot easier to ditch the Win 7 install later. But I think people have it right that you need a utility to repair or create the working dual-boot menu.

As far as I remember, you could "repair" a dual-boot functionality with Macrium Reflect (and no less, the "Free" version) after making a bootable CD of the program tailor-made to your system and drivers. I can say that I had to use it after the Creators Build 1703 borked my dual-boot. It eventually takes you to a point where it (hopefully) recognizes the two system volume partitions on your disk or disks, and you simply add them one at a time to a list.

Some folks just prefer to put their OSes on hot-swap drives in a bay. My system has an NVME M.2 960 Pro with a 160GB Win 7 boot-system volume and an 800GB Win 10 volume. It was "easier" because I started with Win 7, but by itself that was a bitch on the (then) new Z170 chipset, and required slip-streaming drivers to the Win 7 install files and burning a new disc. Once I got through that hurdle, I had to change over to UEFI and GPT partitions, because I'd made the mistake of making the Win 7 install on MBR rather than GPT. I used EaseUS (another utility similar to Macrium) to convert the SSD (and it was originally an SATA SSD!!).

Then I installed Win 10. Next, I added the Samsung drivers for the NVME to Win 7. Eventually, they were installed to the Win 10, but 10 has native drivers. But at that point, I cloned the SATA SSD to the NVME drive.

I finally got this all together, and it's been working perfectly since January except for a couple weeks agonizing over the Creators build 1703.

 

[TheELF]

The thing here is not how to repair the boot menu,the thing is that windows 7 is retro computing...
Any system build for windows 10 comes with uefi instead of mbr,sees all the disks as gpt instead of mbr,and during installation all the devices show up as usb 3 instead of usb 2.
Windows 7 default installation media can't make sense out of uefi nor gpt nor can it see usb 3 devices during installation time.

The dual boot part isn't the problem the installing windows 7 is the problem.
Tinpanalley if you can hook up the win 7 hdd you have from the laptop you can easily make a dual boot entry and chances are the OS will work well enough to keep.

If not your best bet would be to install windows 7 through a virtual machine but to a real partition and add that real partition to your boot menu(if you still want to dual boot...because performance).
I think you need the enterprise edition of windows 7 if you want to install it on a vhd that is a file that emulates a real hard disk that's a new thing for windows 10(or 8 was it? ) that way you don't need to do a partition and the vhd can expand as needed so you don't loose any space either.

 

[tinpanalley]

Tinpanalley if you can hook up the win 7 hdd you have from the laptop you can easily make a dual boot entry and chances are the OS will work well enough to keep.

As I said, that laptop is gone. What I have is the disc and key. I played with Virtualbox yesterday and it was a mess. This particular program just didn't want to run. I think I'm going to need to make a physical hdd Win7 install.
But again, I'm going to have to read through all this because I'm still not clear on how to install to a drive.

 

[deustroop]

It appears that you have a desktop, extra drives lying around, room for another drive in the computer, and the Windows 10 install is an upgrade from windows 7.So why go to the bother of a dual boot on one drive ? Put in a second drive and install 7 there . Dual boot does not have to be two on one drive, it can mean two drives with different OS on each.Select the OS you want at boot time through a boot drive selection menu.

 

[tinpanalley]

Put in a second drive and install 7 there . Dual boot does not have to be two on one drive, it can mean two drives with different OS on each.Select the OS you want at boot time through a boot drive selection menu.

I don't understand, I thought I read you can't run a lower version of Windows when a higher one is installed?

 

[corkyg]

I don't understand, I thought I read you can't run a lower version of Windows when a higher one is installed?

When they are installed on separate drives, and the drives can be individually powered, there is no way that one OS knows about the other. I have three mobile racks, each with a separate Windows OS. I can choose, 7, 10 or Linux. Each of those drives also has a cloned backup stored in a cabinet offline.

 

[Iron Woode]

This is for an old program that doesn't run on 10 anymore but also for a game from 2006 that needed a Pentium 3 and DirectX 9. So does Virtualbox need me to own Windows 7? And since I upgraded to my current 10 from the 7 I first installed when I built it, will I be able to use that 7 installation again or is that key expired?

I am just curious what game it is? It should run in win10 by installing dx9.0c. It can be tricky to get dx9 installed but it can be done. That is what I needed to do for Unreal Tournament 99.

 

[TheELF]

But again, I'm going to have to read through all this because I'm still not clear on how to install to a drive.

Follow this guide,instead of a usb use a whole hdd or a hhd partition,be careful though not to select the wrong disc.
https://www.howtogeek.com/196817/ho...-go-usb-drive-without-the-enterprise-edition/

Installing the traditional way will be a pain in the back because of all the things that have changed.

 

[tinpanalley]

I am just curious what game it is? It should run in win10 by installing dx9.0c. It can be tricky to get dx9 installed but it can be done. That is what I needed to do for Unreal Tournament 99.

The game is MVP Baseball 2005. The community, though they aren't particularly tech savvy, seem to have tried everything to the point where it is known-in-quotes that you have to have Win7 to make it work. the DX9 thing would be fine, but I have too many needs for the current version. I'd love a hdd running Windows 7 that I can connect when I need to to play this game.

 

[deustroop]

Installing the traditional way will be a pain in the back because of all the things that have changed.

He says above that his original install was 7.Perhaps that will be successful again. I'd ask the OP to confirm and for interest sake, to advise his hardware configuration.

 

[tinpanalley]

He says above that his original install was 7.Perhaps that will be successful again. I'd ask the OP to confirm and for interest sake, to advise his hardware configuration.

Yes, on this desktop I'm talking about the original install was Win7. Then straight to 10, skipped 8.

 

[tinpanalley]

Follow this guide,instead of a usb use a whole hdd or a hhd partition,be careful though not to select the wrong disc.
https://www.howtogeek.com/196817/ho...-go-usb-drive-without-the-enterprise-edition/
Installing the traditional way will be a pain in the back because of all the things that have changed.

It's Windows 7 or XP I have to install, not 8/8.1

 

[deustroop]

If you have not improved the hardware at all since Win 7 was installed then just add another drive and install 7 on the second drive. Just be careful to detach the current win 10 drive prior to the install so windows has no opportunity to install 7 on the 10 drive. I assume the MS activation machines will continue to accept the 7 key. If you were to swap out the mainboard then MS might require you to call and sort it out.
The mainboard should have a boot option to allow you to select a drive on any start-up.

 

[Iron Woode]

If you have not improved the hardware at all since Win 7 was installed then just add another drive and install 7 on the second drive. Just be careful to detach the current win 10 drive prior to the install so windows has no opportunity to install 7 on the 10 drive. I assume the MS activation machines will continue to accept the 7 key. If you were to swap out the mainboard then MS might require you to call and sort it out.
The mainboard should have a boot option to allow you to select a drive on any start-up.

I have done this.

I dual boot win10 and win8 using the BIOS to choose which drive.

 

[tinpanalley]

If you have not improved the hardware at all since Win 7 was installed then just add another drive and install 7 on the second drive. I assume the MS activation machines will continue to accept the 7 key. If you were to swap out the mainboard then MS might require you to call and sort it out.

Define improving the hardware? Do you mean changing the motherboard and/or CPU? That hasn't changed. However, this 7 Pro install disc I'm using was (I believe) for an old laptop I had at the time.

Just be careful to detach the current win 10 drive prior to the install so windows has no opportunity to install 7 on the 10 drive.

Yes, but with a blank hdd in there, what do I do upon install? Jump into BIOS to run from the CD drive? And is there really nothing that will go wrong with unplugging my SSD with Windows 10 on it? Is there no part of the current OS that will remain somehow linked to it and then after installing 10, not recognise it again when reconnected?