Confused about BD-R vs. BD-R LTH for archival use.

[Atlantian]

Hello all,

I bought a Pioneer Blu-ray burner a few days ago but I am a bit confused about the media situation. I knew there were BD-Rs but I have been reading about BD-R LTH recently. Is this just a replay of the DVD-R vs DVD+R situation again? As I understand a firmware update in some cases is all that is needed to read BD-R LTH media with older drives.

My usage will be archival use (home for family photos/videos and work data for consulting clients meaning discs must work in any BD drive). I was reading about BD-R LTH and I have to admit the price points are impressive.

For me the only concern is media durability, reliability, and longevity. The two types of media I have narrowed it down to (if people have other recommendations feel free; I am in Canada access/availability is a bit of an issue).

BD-R
Verbatim 10 pkg BD-R MABL 6x 25 GB for C$29.55 or C$2.96 per disc. The model # is 97238 for the specs.

BD-R LTH
JVC Taiyo Yuden 25 pkg BD-R LTH 6x 25 GB for C$22.95 or C$0.92 per disc. Also the SKU is JBDR-25WPP-25SB6L.

For DVDs and CDs I would go with Taiyo Yuden without looking back. For personal use I might use LTH (the cost difference is significant) but for work price is not the issue.

Also what is the difference between organic and inorganic dyes for BDs? As stated before my primary concern is media durability, reliability, and longevity.

Any information, advice, or experience would be greatly appreciated.

P.S.
What is MABL???

 

[hennessy1]

I had made backups of several movies no more than 3 years ago and when reading those discs now the readers have a lot of trouble with them. Could it be the media of course but if I was putting home movies or something of that nature on removable media I would look at the m-disc. They have a a very high theoretical lifetime. I believe 1000 years.

I think it is about $35 for 10 discs though still steep for me but it would be more of the value you give to what your putting on those discs.

 

[Mark R]

I've still got some CD-Rs on my shelf that I burned in 1997. They are perfect in terms of readability; but they were made using good quality discs (gold reflective layer, rather than aluminium or silver) and high-stability (pthahlocyanine as opposed to cyanine) dye.

I've had poor results with cheap discs made with aluminium and cyanine. And even poorer results with no-name discs where the reflective layer simply delaminated.

A problem with the dye technology, is that the dyes have to be light sensitive, in order to be recordable, and therefore are somewhat unstable, and can degrade with age, light, etc.

A later deverlopment was CD-RW - a higher power laser could be used to melt or anneal a recording layer, rather than degrade a dye.

DVD-R used the same type of dye technology as CD-R. It was familiar, but required slightly different dye formulations to work with the different wavelength lasers.

BD-R discs don't use a dye system, partly due to the lack of a satisfactory dye, and concerns about finding one, but more importantly, because the designers of teh system had some concerns about the stability of the available dyes. The problem of making high power lasers had been long-solved, so the decision was made to switch from dye recording technology. Instead of a dye, BD-R uses copper plated silicon as a recording layer. When heated with a high-power laser, the layers melt and fuse into a non-reflective alloy. This alloy technology is believed to be hugely more stable than dye technology. (But this doesn't say anythign about the stability of the unrecorded layer, manufacturing quality of the disc, etc.)

BD-R LTH, is essentially a dye based version of BD-R. It's not compatible with existing blu-ray drives/players (although firmware updates enabling compatibility may be available for some devices). As it's dye based, it can be made on CD-R/DVD-R manufacturing equipment, while BD-R discs can't. Also, as a dye based technology, there are some uncertainties about long-term stability. In reality, for most purposes, the stability of good quality dye discs should be adequate.

 

[VirtualLarry]

BD-R discs don't use a dye system, partly due to the lack of a satisfactory dye, and concerns about finding one, but more importantly, because the designers of teh system had some concerns about the stability of the available dyes. The problem of making high power lasers had been long-solved, so the decision was made to switch from dye recording technology. Instead of a dye, BD-R uses copper plated silicon as a recording layer. When heated with a high-power laser, the layers melt and fuse into a non-reflective alloy. This alloy technology is believed to be hugely more stable than dye technology. (But this doesn't say anythign about the stability of the unrecorded layer, manufacturing quality of the disc, etc.)

So Verbatim is lying when they talk about their AZO-based BD-R media?

Edit: I guess their AZO-based media is indeed LTH.

See this PDF, it has some good info, including shelf and burned lifetime graphs.
http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/includes/binary_details.php3?id=7040

 

[Atlantian]

The more I read/know the more difficult the BD-R choice gets for archival use.

To sum things up the best option by far is the M-DISC BD-R (as per DOD testing at 85°C, 85% RH, and full spectrum light --> http://www.mdisc.com/china-lake-summary-report/). The M-DISC BD-Rs are not available in Canada yet so for the interim period I will have to use regular BD-R discs. When Sony or Pioneer comes out with a Blu-Ray M-DISC burner (I do not like LG burners, bad experience once upon a time; once bitten twice shy) I will get one. As you can guess Sony and Pioneer are my first choice for burners (personal preference, much like the debate over Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz in terms of which is the best).

BD-R HTL are what I am going to go with for archiving based on everything I have read. Being in Canada, however, it is a bit hard to find so I am going to have to double check based on the model number before buying in store (or online).

In terms of BD-R LTH discs that is a non-starter for me. Based on the results from a study done by the Archives of France in 2012 (the study, 39 pages, is available here if you read French or want to use Google Translate --> http://www.archivesdefrance.culture.gouv.fr/static/6187 ). Basically the BD-R LTH discs perform better than DVD-/+R discs but that is not saying much.

Conclusion: In lack of a clear choice (availability of Sony or Panasonic BD-R media is limited in Canada) I will get whatever major brand BD-R HTL media I can find that has a lifetime warranty (which looks like it will be Verbatim). I am not going to touch BD-R LTH discs for archiving. When M-DISC BD-Rs are available in Canada they will be my first choice.

Also what software do you recommend for testing the quality of a BD-R once it is burned? What should I be looking for in the results?

P.S.
The store I bought the Blu-ray burner at said that Ridata makes the best quality BD-R discs. When I heard that I said okay... And did not buy any discs because I was skeptical. Any opinions on this brand of discs?

 

[Phynaz]

Don't use optical for archiving. At least not optical alone.

 

[Atlantian]

Don't use optical for archiving. At least not optical alone.

Words to live by. I also have a 3 TB USB 3.0 external HDD which is very convenient for backing up stuff quickly. Still I like to have more than one option just in case.

 

[starkreiten]

Atlantian,

According to the press release:
"The new Blu-ray M-DISCs will be writable and readable on any Blu-ray combo drive – an enormous step for Millenniata and the convenience of this permanent storage technology."

So, no special M-DISC Blu-ray burner required -- unless you want to do M-DISC DVDs too.

Hopefully, they will actually get them released by July.

Dana

 

[Mark R]

Atlantian,

According to the press release:
"The new Blu-ray M-DISCs will be writable and readable on any Blu-ray combo drive – an enormous step for Millenniata and the convenience of this permanent storage technology."

Reading a detailed description of M-Disc technology, it is basically the same thing as BD-R. A mixture of metals and silicon/minerals, which starts off partially reflective, but when irradiated by a laser becomes non-reflective. There may be some changes in the precise formulation, but the principle is the same; metal particles are fused into a silica-based (i.e. rock) substrate.

As the M-discs use HTL writing, it's no suprise that M-disc BD-Rs should be fully compatible with existing BD-R technology.

It's their application of HTL to DVD, which requires special proprietary drives.