computers, did they get more and more complex or less?

[mutz]

hi there,
we had this sort of discussion about a year back regarding whether computers has gotten more complex with they're time or less,
i've brought up this subject once again through another thread but yet this question is still here you know and it's kind of interesting to see what you guys are thinking.

if we look back to the ENIAC computer and these plugs you put in and out to make it calculate different things and further on to the first PC with it's simple games and BASIC programming language, maybe assembly too, DOS vs these days Windows with all it's enormous shell and all the things one has to know in order to be able to operate it from virus handling to adding HW, drivers, GC, maybe RAID arrays and so on,
maybe basically taking a look back around 20 years ago to this date,
of course a lot has become much simpler, but in order to understand the enormous amount of information there is today when simply handling every portion on the PC without maybe programming, the user has to go through a lot of reading,
just in order to figure out how SSD's work and operating with the TRIMming, the garbage collection, the speeds, the IOP's, the benching software, firmware upgrades and so on which might seem easy for a long term user but can be a hell to a beginner and especially if anything happens to go wrong.

one of the members recalled using a B21 pin mod on a slot 1 CPU with nail polishing which is actually is or was still being used with the PERC 5I RAID cards to allow them with higher speeds.

this question is quite large cause there are many considerations to take into account such as the fact today the internet is much larger, there are many professional sites with loads of info about almost everything and many are giving rips to new comers which tackle with issues,
also maybe we should take into account things such as data protection which has become much harder to deal with, people are being experts in many fields and it seems like you can study a vast amount of knowledge on many topics not like before when things has been maybe harder to operate at the OS level but much more easier when it comes to forensics, internet, programming probably, HW design, OS design, and so on.

so it comes to a point where back then, people had to do maybe a lot to figure out how to operate these machines and find all kinds of workarounds which today you can find in many softwares which are being released by developers of any kind,
today software companies and individual developers as well as hackers and crackers of all sort are doing most of the job while the first time users have to deal with as less complications as possible of course as this is never 100% achievable still as computers are very much complex,

but maybe studying it all over seems to be impossible as there are many different studies today which each can be learnt for years,
as you see this question is quite complex itself 🙂,
have you'r say 🙂.



nvm.

 

[uclabachelor]

hi there,
we had this sort of discussion about a year back regarding whether computers has gotten more complex with they're time or less,
i've brought up this subject once again through another thread but yet this question is still here you know and it's kind of interesting to see what you guys are thinking.

if we look back to the ENIAC computer and these plugs you put in and out to make it calculate different things and further on to the first PC with it's simple games and BASIC programming language, maybe assembly too, DOS vs these days Windows with all it's enormous shell and all the things one has to know in order to be able to operate it from virus handling to adding HW, drivers, GC, maybe RAID arrays and so on,
maybe basically taking a look back around 20 years ago to this date,
of course a lot has become much simpler, but in order to understand the enormous amount of information there is today when simply handling every portion on the PC without maybe programming, the user has to go through a lot of reading,
just in order to figure out how SSD's work and operating with the TRIMming, the garbage collection, the speeds, the IOP's, the benching software, firmware upgrades and so on which might seem easy for a long term user but can be a hell to a beginner and especially if anything happens to go wrong.

one of the members recalled using a B21 pin mod on a slot 1 CPU with nail polishing which is actually is or was still being used with the PERC 5I RAID cards to allow them with higher speeds.

this question is quite large cause there are many considerations to take into account such as the fact today the internet is much larger, there are many professional sites with loads of info about almost everything and many are giving rips to new comers which tackle with issues,
also maybe we should take into account things such as data protection which has become much harder to deal with, people are being experts in many fields and it seems like you can study a vast amount of knowledge on many topics not like before when things has been maybe harder to operate at the OS level but much more easier when it comes to forensics, internet, programming probably, HW design, OS design, and so on.

so it comes to a point where back then, people had to do maybe a lot to figure out how to operate these machines and find all kinds of workarounds which today you can find in many softwares which are being released by developers of any kind,
today software companies and individual developers as well as hackers and crackers of all sort are doing most of the job while the first time users have to deal with as less complications as possible of course as this is never 100% achievable still as computers are very much complex,

but maybe studying it all over seems to be impossible as there are many different studies today which each can be learnt for years,
as you see this question is quite complex itself 🙂,
have you'r say 🙂.



nvm.

Computers got more simple to use for the end-users. For everyone else, it got more complex.

 

[Dankk]

Of course computers have gotten more technically complex. The technology itself has become more complex, and will only continue to do so.

For consumers they are easier to use, though, in regards to how people interface with the computer. This is not the same kind of "complex". This is the usability of the technology by the end-user, not the technology itself.

 

[Modelworks]

There was an article by a retiring intel engineer that said he was concerned about technology today and the pace it is advancing. His concern is that it is becoming so complex that no one person can understand it all. He used the first intel processors as examples explaining that in them the majority of engineers in the field understood how they worked and could with time make a comparable part. Now though the processors are so complex that he said only 4 people at intel actually understand the current processors enough to be able to re-create one. Everyone else is dependent on other people .

Everything is specialized now and that is good and bad. Good because you can accomplish great things. Bad because the more technologically advanced you become the more reliant you are on other people to understand how it works.

One area that is needlessly complex is networking. I was ready to scream over the holidays trying to set up a wireless network for some friends that just got the internet
. One device would work but the computers wouldn't. Computers worked but then the router would quit. Trying to explain why this or that was having problems often got me blank stares.

 

[jimhsu]

Computers rely on layered complexity ... its something that things like mobile phones, some tablets (*cough* iPad), consoles, etc do well. It's the same theory with automobile engines; just as one doesn't need even a rudimentary understanding of torque or piston mechanics to operate a car, one doesn't need even a basic understanding of how computers operate in order to use them (much to the detriment of tech support desks). It's when layered complexity fails that consumers get frustrated ("Why does my computer say PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA?" "Why does Safari crash on my iPhone?" "What do all those random 0x00000 numbers mean?")

Other examples where layered complexity fails:
- Networking (and everything that has to do with it)
- Installing printer drivers on early versions of Linux
- DRM
- Windows error messages of all sorts
- The Registry, DLLs, VxDs, INFs, etc.
- Security certificates when setting up SSL access on web sites
- Heat sink installation for certain models
- CD-ROMs in the 90s (If you're old enough to remember "invalid media type reading drive X" back in those days)
...

I'm sure this list is by all measures infinitely long

 

[pitz]

Certainly, firms like Intel would have serious succession issues, at some level. Just like NASA and its contractors could not reproduce the Space Shuttle without starting over with a clean design (the most recent Shuttle was actually built of spare, not new parts!).

A big elephant in the room is that US tech firms have failed to hire, in significant numbers, enough talent, to breed them into long-term contributors. This is because the H1-B visa encourages firms to use 'cheap' labour instead of very highly paid career engineers.

CPU's at Intel are designed by 50-something-year old guys who have spent their careers at Intel (and elsewhere) coming up with stuff, working with the tools, and understanding everything involved. Not by 20-something-year-old teenie boppers on 5-year work permits who are just trying to maximize their rent before they go back to India.

 

[Ninjahedge]

As everyone has said, it is both.

I remember setting up my old 486DX (with the help of someone who built from the old 8086 days, 7½" floppy and all!) and having to remember to hook up the right wires to thr right places on the motherboard (labelling was HORRIBLE) and setting the jumpers on any drives and cards you had.

There was less complexity, but for some reason it was just plain HARDER to hook it up.

Granted, of course, there were less possible combinations back then as there are now. NOW you have problems with what chip goes with what board. What sound card has problems with which boards or with onboard sound, What vid card will pass the HDMI signal through, etc etc.

I have to surf around here and elsewhere before buying even the starter parts to make sure everything will work properly.


But I have never truly known how the CPU was truly setup. I knew what it could do, not how. I think that is the case with many. You do not need to know how to reset the timing on your transmission to change the oil every 5K, you know?

 

[jimhsu]

As everyone has said, it is both.

I remember setting up my old 486DX (with the help of someone who built from the old 8086 days, 7½" floppy and all!) and having to remember to hook up the right wires to thr right places on the motherboard (labelling was HORRIBLE) and setting the jumpers on any drives and cards you had.

There was less complexity, but for some reason it was just plain HARDER to hook it up.

Granted, of course, there were less possible combinations back then as there are now. NOW you have problems with what chip goes with what board. What sound card has problems with which boards or with onboard sound, What vid card will pass the HDMI signal through, etc etc.

I have to surf around here and elsewhere before buying even the starter parts to make sure everything will work properly.


But I have never truly known how the CPU was truly setup. I knew what it could do, not how. I think that is the case with many. You do not need to know how to reset the timing on your transmission to change the oil every 5K, you know?

That, and simply the number of "convenience features" on modern MBs/cases/hard drives/etc etc. Just in the past 5 years:

- The death of the horrible IDE cable
- Single clamp memory slots, so that the memory goes in the first time without struggling with aligning it perfectly (in new motherboards)
- Labeled motherboard standoffs on cases (for mATX and ATX) so you don't have to guess which screw goes where
- Those "quick-connector things" to organize power LEDs/HDD LEDs/power button/reset switches. No more struggling with a tweezer.
- Youtube videos on heatsink installation, thermal paste use, etc etc
- More sane HSF mounting solutions that don't require Herculean strength (if you remember the old ones ... argh)
- POST LED lights (in new motherboards)
- Power/reset buttons right on the motherboard (in new motherboards)
- Locking molex clamps, sleeved cables, modular cables (on higher end PSUs)
- Right angled SATA ports
- Rolled case edges (to save your poor fingers)
- Thumbscrews!
- No jumpers!

Most modern motherboards are simply exceedingly well designed and thought out compared to even a few years ago. Great experiences so far with my current Sandy Bridge build.

The list goes on and on...

 

[GoSharks]

That, and simply the number of "convenience features" on modern MBs/cases/hard drives/etc etc. Just in the past 5 years:

- The death of the horrible IDE cable
- Single clamp memory slots, so that the memory goes in the first time without struggling with aligning it perfectly (in new motherboards)
- Labeled motherboard standoffs on cases (for mATX and ATX) so you don't have to guess which screw goes where
- Those "quick-connector things" to organize power LEDs/HDD LEDs/power button/reset switches. No more struggling with a tweezer.
- Youtube videos on heatsink installation, thermal paste use, etc etc
- More sane HSF mounting solutions that don't require Herculean strength (if you remember the old ones ... argh)
- POST LED lights (in new motherboards)
- Power/reset buttons right on the motherboard (in new motherboards)
- Locking molex clamps, sleeved cables, modular cables (on higher end PSUs)
- Right angled SATA ports
- Rolled case edges (to save your poor fingers)
- Thumbscrews!
- No jumpers!

Most modern motherboards are simply exceedingly well designed and thought out compared to even a few years ago. Great experiences so far with my current Sandy Bridge build.

The list goes on and on...

I think your problem was with buying "cheap" products.

 

[Ninjahedge]

GS, not really.

It was a while before cases were not rolled steel with sharp edges, and the thumbscrews are a lifesaver!

The bundled conection hookups are great too. The hardest was not necessarily the need for tweezers, but the fact that you may be 1 pin off on your power, LED or "speaker" and F everything up.

I also agree about SATA!!! Good BYE IDE ribbons!!!!!

 

[Texashiker]

computers, did they get more and more complex or less?

Less complex:

With the innovation of plug and play technology, you dont have to worry about setting IRQ jumpers on hardware

We are no longer limited to a 2 gig hard drive file partition

Broadband is almost everywhere - but some places still have only dialup

People in general have a better understanding of how computers work

The days of DOS and commands have fallen to the wayside.

 

[jimhsu]

I think your problem was with buying "cheap" products.

Of course, I failed to add that every single one of my builds have become cheaper over time, and more powerful:

486DX - over $3000
Pentium 2 - over $2000
Athlon FX 3700+ - $1800
Current (E8400) - $1200
Future (Sandy Bridge) - $1100 (including splurging on things like Seasonic X-series power supplies)

So yes I think it's definitely competition that's driving component prices down and quality up.

Unless you're saying of course that I should have spent $5K instead on my 486 rig, or something ... don't believe there were any of the features I listed back then, even on top-of-the-line boutique computers.

 

[Texashiker]

I think your problem was with buying "cheap" products.

My families first computer was a packard bell that cost somewhere around $1,800 in 1995. It had a 75mhz cpu, windows 3.11 and 8 megs of memory

During a black friday sale last year I bought my wife an emachines laptop with 2 gigs of memory and windows 7 for $199.

 

[mutz]

There was an article by a retiring intel engineer that said he was concerned about technology today and the pace it is advancing. His concern is that it is becoming so complex that no one person can understand it all.

yeah, yeah, this was ronak singhal or someone, we brought it on the earlier thread,
here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29751655&postcount=28

Granted, of course, there were less possible combinations back then as there are now.

exactly one of the points.

I have to surf around here and elsewhere before buying even the starter parts to make sure everything will work properly.

exactly 🙂.

- The death of the horrible IDE cable
- Single clamp memory slots, so that the memory goes in the first time without struggling with aligning it perfectly (in new motherboards)
- Labeled motherboard standoffs on cases (for mATX and ATX) so you don't have to guess which screw goes where
- Those "quick-connector things" to organize power LEDs/HDD LEDs/power button/reset switches. No more struggling with a tweezer.
- Youtube videos on heatsink installation, thermal paste use, etc etc
- More sane HSF mounting solutions that don't require Herculean strength (if you remember the old ones ... argh)
- POST LED lights (in new motherboards)
- Power/reset buttons right on the motherboard (in new motherboards)
- Locking molex clamps, sleeved cables, modular cables (on higher end PSUs)
- Right angled SATA ports
- Rolled case edges (to save your poor fingers)
- Thumbscrews!
- No jumpers!

there are definitely ups and downs, much more ups maybe and probably trivial.

from what everybody are saying, it is hard to compare earlier computers to the one's today, the demands were different, the technology is way different (or maybe being squeezed out more then before), the awareness to customer needs has gotten way up and we see it through the interface users have to deal with today vs before.
i'm not sure we can really compare computers as they are today to earlier computers,
definitely at the lower level they got much more complex, from HW and SW aspects, at the upper level they might have gotten simpler till - as some of you have said, we get into some error and we always do,
maybe the main issue with it is that the inner level cannot be totally masked out and that's when maybe many users will try figure it out in a forum or by themselves or call a technician, this is where people start to learn by themselves which inevitably makes technology grow, you see how it is feeding each other?
that's where niche markets grow, tools are being developed, enthusiast market is growing and the entire field is becoming more and more tiny and professionalized,
it makes companies ask for more, it is pushing them further as well as the customers, subsidize researches, bring more companies to the market like all sort of cooling devices, the growing market for OC'ers, work with newer materials and so on.
it is a quest to the better which feeds itself through education and mutual work - see modelworks.

Everything is specialized now and that is good and bad. Good because you can accomplish great things. Bad because the more technologically advanced you become the more reliant you are on other people to understand how it works.

 

[KIAman]

Computers have become exponentially more complex to make it less complex for the average user.

 

[Modelworks]

yeah, yeah, this was ronak singhal or someone, we brought it on the earlier thread,
here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29751655&postcount=28

Nope, it wasn't him.

maybe the main issue with it is that the inner level cannot be totally masked out and that's when maybe many users will try figure it out in a forum or by themselves or call a technician, this is where people start to learn by themselves which inevitably makes technology grow, you see how it is feeding each other?

The average consumer isn't going to take the time to figure it out. If the product doesn't work out of the box with 10 minutes of learning the product usually fails. Consumers don't want to spend time on a forum asking how to work something they just bought. If they did pc gaming would be the dominant form of gaming, but it isn't consoles are because people want to just buy something and have it work.

that's where niche markets grow, tools are being developed, enthusiast market is growing and the entire field is becoming more and more tiny and professionalized

That is fine if you have good communication and everyone plays nice. But what happens when everyday life occurrences like death and war break the cycle of communication and an engineer can't repair something because the person who knew how it worked was killed in a car accident ?

If you think that is rare it isn't at all. I know of government agencies that pay large sums to single people because that person is the only person that knows how the current software they depend on works. I know of power plants that operate with control systems that are only understood by two people and one of them is in his late 60's. As tech gets more advanced the problem gets worse.

 

[GoSharks]

Unless you're saying of course that I should have spent $5K instead on my 486 rig, or something ... don't believe there were any of the features I listed back then, even on top-of-the-line boutique computers.

Well, you could definitely find cases that had rolled edges and such 10 years ago. They just cost a little bit more than your stamped ones.

 

[mutz]

The average consumer isn't going to take the time to figure it out.

i'm guessing you'r right about this one, but still, we cannot neglect the amount of people using enthusiast forums today, aiming for better HW support and custom creation. the fact that you can buy many types of kit's to enhance you'r computing experience, tells about the market there is for these products which feeds the companies who make these parts...
was this 20 years ago? probably not, and it's not only at the lower level stuff such as LED fans and others of all sort, fancy cases, water cooling equipment, fan controllers and even PRO motherboards but it is coming to PCI SSD's which costs hundreds of dollars and are marketed not only for the enterprise market but for the enthusiast as well and the 2 way 1366 EVGA motherboard which is a come back from years before,
people are buying and (hopefully) it goes well for these companies even at hi-end market for enthusiasts,
this is showing of a growth in people awareness and demand, we can also notice the leveling of intel which approves a step which is more moderate from the skulltrail which has cost a lot and maybe wasn't "right" for it's time, i think we see the market levels and getting into a more balanced proportion.
what i'm basically saying is that this is a processes which is taking it's time, but the way is always up 🙂.
about the consoles, let's see what will happen with onLive.

Bad because the more technologically advanced you become the more reliant you are on other people to understand how it works.

than i see you'r point.

this is quite worrying actually and seems you'r a bit worried about this as well,
does people constantly look what to worry about or is it the way this world lives is what is making us worry?
just wondering,
now one of the issues is we're trying to get our jobs secured or have a monopoly which places us within demand and control.
i'm thinking as long as the world changes and develops, people understand more and more the importance of relationships and worikng together,
when we work together, there is trust and loyalty, that is when we share and grow together from the actuality of doing.
if the world is going this direction then these problems or issues are to be solved, either by developing a new technology or tools, or by people willing to learn, understand and help others,
i think indeed that this state of only few people understanding a certain topic is terribly problematic, if it concerns science and there are left records, people can follow them
yet if it is a kind of hard going learning which there isn't time for such as at a necessary resource which cannot be halted, then this is more severe,
i'm sure though people are getting aware of the problematic situation and one of the results of that awareness is people hearing about that through an article or within the news/TV.
being aware of a problem is the first step to taking care of it and hopefully and probably, it soon will.