Component recommendations for 20 user terminal server

[slud]

Anandtech articles and forums have helped me assemble a number of desktop computers.

My goal now is to build the fastest machine for running 20 terminal server sessions worth of QuickBooks. The load on the current server occasionally maxes out the CPU during queries, but I think most speed complaints are tied to disk access delays.

I'm not set on building it myself, but it seems that I can easily get twice the performance for the same price as buying through Dell (even if I buy the most over-priced components separately).

How are these for specs?:

Motherboard:
*ASUS K8N-DRE Dual Socket 940 NVIDIA nForce 2200 Professional Extended ATX Server
(Nforce 2200 chipset looks good, but Anandtech never seems to review mobo's based on it.)

CPU:
1 x AMD Opteron 165 Denmark 1GHz HT Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model OSA165CDBOX
(with the option to add a second one later)

HDD:
2 x Western Digital 1.5Gbps 74GB 10000RPM 8MB Raptor

RAM:
2 x 2GB RAM kits
(4GB total)

Case:
Anything would be fine, rackmount not necessary.

PSU:
All recommendations welcome.


Thanks for taking the time to read this. Any feedback/suggestions are definitely appreciated.

 

[slud]

Doh!

This would probably be a better option for the CPU:
1 x AMD Dual-Core Opteron 265 Italy 1GHz HT Socket 940 Processor Model OSA265CBBOX - Retail

 

[Howard]

You can't use more than one 1-series Opteron. You'd have to go with a 2xx for dual-CPU operation.

According to StorageReview.com, the fastest server HDD is the Maxtor Atlas 15K II with a U320 interface.

http://www.storagereview.com/comparison.html

What are your budget and noise constraints? Will the storage be entirely local? i.e. no SAN or whatever

 

[slud]

Budget is around $1500. I can't imagine there would be much speed benefit for a system more expensive than that.

No noise constraints.

 

[Varun]

The motherboard you picked has no PCI-X slots at all, and only supports onboard RAID 0 or 1 through the 4 onboard SATA ports. Since you said disk access is your main issue I think you should spend money on the disk subsystem.

This Tyan motherboard has 1xPCI-X @100MHz and 1xPCI-X@133MHz Price is the same as the Asus at $355

Tyan is a great name so I would think this would be a good board, but I have never used it so your milage may vary.

Opteron 265 - $325 - seems like a good choice for performance/price.

4x1GB PC3200 ECC - $600

Ok, so we're almost at your budget already and we don't even have a PSU, case, or hard drives yet. Either you have to rethink your budget or move down to workstation level components for your server.

Anyways, since you are having disk issues, you should go with a SATAII RAID 5 controller card for PCI-X for $250

Raptors are nice, fast access and designed for server applications. Let's say you get the minimum 3 of those for $155 each
3x 74GB Raptors - $465

Another option, especially with RAID5, is to just use more slower disks. The Highpoint card can run up to 8 SATAII disks. Let's price both 4 and 8 disks.
4xSATAII 80GB 7200RPM drive = 4x$55=$220
8 would then be $440 - still cheaper than the 3 raptors and 8 7200 rpm disks in raid 5 would be fast.

Ok, so we are at $1750 - $1995 before case and PSU. So, I think your budget is pretty low for a server. You can build a server out of lower grade workstation components (like A64X2 instead of Opteron, cheaper S939 board, no ECC memory, no RAID 5) but I don't know if that is a good idea. That I guess is up to your company and how much they value having the server online. Really you need a good PSU (or maybe a redundant setup), and a decent case.

The key here is RAID 5. You have said that disk access is your issue, and RAID 5 will eliminate that. Obviously a U320 SCSI system with 10-15KRPM drives would be better, but that is getting way out of your budget. You can buy a PCI-X SATA RAID 5 controller for a reasonable amount of money, and control up to 8 SATAII drives. That's a pretty decent disk subsystem.

The RAID card has many other advantages as well, such as staggered spin up, hot swappable and spare drive capability etc. Be sure the read up on it.

RAID 1 would be your cheaper option, but really is not the way to go in a server.

Hopefully even if you use none of my advice it helps you out. Good luck!

 

[slud]

Thanks for the input Varun!

Good suggestion on an alternative mobo. I thought the Nforce pro's had RAID 5 built-in, but I guess that's only on the Intel Nforce 4's.

Will probably use non-ECC memory. My personal experience with non-ECC has been flawless, and the application doesn't require bullet-proof uptime.

RAID-5 would definitely be better. The Raptors would be such a huge step up from the current setup, that we might wait to go RAID-5 later. Hopefully the app will take advantage of the 1.5GB extra memory, and reduce the amount of disk paging anyway.

If you get the chance, what would be your recommendations for case and PSU?

 

[Green Man]

Does socket 940 require ECC memory?

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Green Man
Does socket 940 require ECC memory?

I believe so.

 

[slud]

Good call. I thought I had been looking at some mobo's that had the option of using either, but I was probably mistaken.

 

[Varun]

Lian-Li makes some nice full tower cases. The are pretty expensive though. You just want to find a case with good cooling (read lots of big fans) and be sure to have enough total drive bays for hard drives (I'd say at least 8 minimum int/ext total)

600w Seasonic should be enough power for now and the future. I'd recommend PC Power and Cooling but they jump from 500w which might be low with 8 hard drives to 850w which is way overkill.

You could spend more on this if you want, or less on a case depending on what you feel your needs are. Just be sure it has adequate ventilation for a server and enough drive bays for the future. Just be sure to get a good brand of power supply, and I would say minimum 600w. Fortron, Seasonic, PCP&C are all good brands, and I am sure others would recommend other brands as well.

 

[RebateMonger]

You didn't mention what version of Quickbooks you are using. Only their Enterprise versions officially support Terminal Server mode.

The recommended configuration for other Quickbooks products are:
Version 5: Install Quickbooks client on each client PC and store the data file on the server in a shared folder.
Version 6: Install Quickbooks client on each client PC and install a copy of Quickbooks on the Server. The Server installation is ONLY intended to create the necessary MySQL database on the Server. It will not be used by anyone and is free. Set the client PCs to obtain their data from the shared central Server database.

 

[slud]

Actually running 2 company files Quickbooks 4 and 2 company files on Quickbooks 6 simultaneously, all through terminal server remote desktops. This may not be officially sanctioned, but it's easily 10x faster because the data file doesn't get shuffled around the network.

The multiple copies/instances hardly effect performance. The slow parts are slow even when a single user is running it.

 

[spike spiegal]

I run Citrix boxes with Quickbooks. Funny thing is I haven't notice much performance difference running QB on a fast gig LAN vs locally on a Citrix box, but my databases are small. My biggest problem with QuickBooks is the stupid app only parses 10 printers or so, which means QuickBooks often gets confused with all the dynamic printers created on my servers and the user can't print. I wrote a reg hack to fix this, but it might not be a problem with Terminal Server given it handles printing more conservatively than Citrix.

If I were to build a Terminal Server/Citrix rig I'd go with a dual core as you suggested, cram the beast full of RAM, and relax on the disk system. 4 cores or processors in my experience are a waste of time with Citrix/Terminal server. Get more boxes instead, whicc tends to cost about the same.

You don't need RAID 5. Two raptors in RAID 1 will be cheaper and won't be much slower, and if your RAID 5 controller pukes on your MB you don't lose ALL your data.

Sorry, but the Tyan boards are a bit over-rated. Might have better onboard voltage regulation that a vanilla ASUS or a Gigabyte, but the integrated controllers aren't any better.

You can do this for $1,500, but it assumes you already have a server license.

Oh yeah. Please don't be an idiot - Citrix Terminal server boxes are about the most memory intensive systems there are. This is not a gaming rig, and you should be using ECC. It doesn't cost that much more, and it's good for peace of mind at least.

 

[slud]

Thanks for the input Spike.

The QuickBooks files are 1000MB and 600MB. Last I checked (a couple versions ago), it seemed that QuickBooks wanted to send the whole thing across the wire when someone ran a search.

Windows terminal server doesn't seem to be too much of a memory hog, I actually wish I could get QuickBooks too put more of it's stuff into memory so it wasn't going to disk all the time.

I'm running some IOZone benchmarks on the current system to attempt to guage how much improvement new hardware might bring.

 

[Varun]

Originally posted by: spike spiegal
I run Citrix boxes with Quickbooks. Funny thing is I haven't notice much performance difference running QB on a fast gig LAN vs locally on a Citrix box, but my databases are small. My biggest problem with QuickBooks is the stupid app only parses 10 printers or so, which means QuickBooks often gets confused with all the dynamic printers created on my servers and the user can't print. I wrote a reg hack to fix this, but it might not be a problem with Terminal Server given it handles printing more conservatively than Citrix.

If I were to build a Terminal Server/Citrix rig I'd go with a dual core as you suggested, cram the beast full of RAM, and relax on the disk system. 4 cores or processors in my experience are a waste of time with Citrix/Terminal server. Get more boxes instead, whicc tends to cost about the same.

You don't need RAID 5. Two raptors in RAID 1 will be cheaper and won't be much slower, and if your RAID 5 controller pukes on your MB you don't lose ALL your data.

Sorry, but the Tyan boards are a bit over-rated. Might have better onboard voltage regulation that a vanilla ASUS or a Gigabyte, but the integrated controllers aren't any better.

You can do this for $1,500, but it assumes you already have a server license.

Oh yeah. Please don't be an idiot - Citrix Terminal server boxes are about the most memory intensive systems there are. This is not a gaming rig, and you should be using ECC. It doesn't cost that much more, and it's good for peace of mind at least.

Just got to comment on a couple things. First, the RAID5 controller is a PCI-X card, not built into the motherboard, so if it dies you can just replace it. The onboard controllers only do RAID 0 and 1.

The Tyan board was the same price as the Asus, and actually had server things such as PCI-X. I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about Tyan, so even though they are likely over rated, if you can get one for the same price as an Asus I think you would be silly not to.