Comparative Salvation?

[bleeb]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
So long, and thanks for all the fish!

huh?

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: lirion

So that brings us back to the scenario where the evil person completes the list of things necessary to gain salvation, and beats the system?

Also if there were no Hell there would be no Get out of Hell Free card.

Well, if God is infinitely merciful, is it more difficult for him to be merciful to an evil person than a good person? Especially since both are imperfect; where does he draw the line between amounts of imperfection? Of course, this raises the question of the requirements necessary to gain salvation, and my perspective on that is that those requirements are being in a love-relationship with God, which does inevitably, I think, work on a person's character so that they strive (motivation, whether or not their actions wind up reaching their goals) to please God. So it's not really a list of things necessary to do, as I see it, but that love-relationship instead.

I really do think God is more concerned with knowing us than with what we do, because we do all suck no matter what, neh?

Tyler, that post must have taken a fair while to type up. Thanks for contributing your thoughts. My question about your analogy is that it assumes a limited mental capacity. We're not mentally capable of knowing every fish in the pond and still managing the rest of our property. But if God is omnipotent, then he could easily both know and care about the fish in the pond without any mental strain. Why he'd care is obviously a debateable question, but if he cared enough to stock the pond with fish, it seems reasonable that he'd continue to care about the fish.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: lirion

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?

We were all born what we are by no fault of our own. God is apparently running the show, and could set whatever standard he wants. If he sets a standard so high that none could ever reach it then I guess he wouldn't be a loving God. In that case what would be the point of judging anyone since the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Indeed, what would be the point of trying to reach the standard, being created in such a way?

[disclaimer] I'm Christian, so I'm merely debating this along my own viewpoint, not trying to "win converts". [/disclaimer]

I doubt anyone thinks that. ATOT just isn't the right medium for it.

Being a loving God, what if he offered a get out of hell free card, covering us with himself so that we're freed from having to reach the standard? That's kinda my perspective of how things work, that there's a natural law to salvation but that God, working within the natural laws he set up, met the standard for us (making him both a merciful and loving God).

OK, God makes the world.
God made Laws for how people are to be judged.
God waits for Benny to keep the ruffians down in Hell (sorry, but I'm having one of those wierd days, and must share my strange visions).
Seriously, God sets up the rules...so why would he have to meet the standard for us? Why not just make us so we could meet the standard, just not without tyring to work at it a bit?
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it seems a bit complicated compared to what would be necessary.

So, cliff's notes version of Christian history:
1. God makes universe. God sets up rules.
2. God makes Man, and tells them to follow the rules.
3. Man breaks rules. Man makes God.
4. God gets His peeps together, and eventually drowns the guys in #3.
5. God becomes a daddy and tries to set Man right again.
6. 500-1500 AD things get screwed up again, and we await The End.

Now, likewise, why not give each of us all we need to know to reach the said standard? After all, we'd still have to work, as we've proven that we don't need God or devils to shoot ourselves in the foot spiritually. Look at the fundamentalists all around...thye bog themselves down with dogma to keep from thinking for themselves.

Just my opinion, coming to you from the Buckle of the Bible Belt, in the state with more churches per capita and per square mile than anywhere else in the world, Macon, Georgia.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: bleeb

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
So long, and thanks for all the fish!

huh?

Ultimate Hitcthhiker's Guide should be $15 or less. BUY IT. NOW.
To elaborate, the Earth is a big computer, to find the ultimate question to life, the universe, and everything (The answer, already computed, is 42). The most intelligent creatures on the Earth were actually dolphins and mice.
The Earth was destrroyed to keep the ultimate question from being known. Dolphins had known for a long time of the Earth's doom, and when they squealed (or whatever) the national anthem on the day it was destroyed, they were actually saying, "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"

 

[boggsie]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: boggsie
Hmmm ... It appears that any attempt to apply an external standard will fail, because there will always be somebody with a set of their own rules, which will be able to judge themselves more reightous than another.

Therefore, one has to conclude that the only way one can be judged, is by the motivations in ones own heart and there is only One qualified to judge those.

Well put. So are you suggesting that the motivations being judged against a standard of perfection or that actions are judged against motivations?

Eeek ... This is going to be difficult for me to describe. I am not very good in print; not much better face to face. Let me say that I am uncomfortable in describing what may be percieved as a method to judge the actions, or perhaps more appropriately, the motivations of others. Having said that, one could also argue that it is possible to draw a general conclusion on the motivation of the behavior, based on the fruit that the labor/effort yeilds. A good tree will known by it's fruit. Still, I am truly incapable of knowing what is in their heart. I may have simply restated my original point and not touched on your question in any way.

the motivations being judged against a standard of perfection

actions are judged against motivations

I don't know that these are necessarily mutually exclusive. The first part is particularly problematic for me. Motivations are only measurable by the One. And the standard has and will only be matched in One case. If we fall back to measuring behavior, then again, we're in danger of placing ourselves in the same place as the priest and the levite on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho.

The standard exists and I strive (and fail) to meet that standard. However, I do not strive for the purpose of being measured externally. I strive, out of Love, to please an audience of One. Admittedly, it is very, very difficult to state this point in this communications medium, without sounding self-reightous, prideful or holier than thou.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Cerb

OK, God makes the world.
God made Laws for how people are to be judged.
God waits for Benny to keep the ruffians down in Hell (sorry, but I'm having one of those wierd days, and must share my strange visions).
Seriously, God sets up the rules...so why would he have to meet the standard for us? Why not just make us so we could meet the standard, just not without tyring to work at it a bit?
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it seems a bit complicated compared to what would be necessary.

So, cliff's notes version of Christian history:
1. God makes universe. God sets up rules.
2. God makes Man, and tells them to follow the rules.
3. Man breaks rules. Man makes God.
4. God gets His peeps together, and eventually drowns the guys in #3.
5. God becomes a daddy and tries to set Man right again.
6. 500-1500 AD things get screwed up again, and we await The End.

Now, likewise, why not give each of us all we need to know to reach the said standard? After all, we'd still have to work, as we've proven that we don't need God or devils to shoot ourselves in the foot spiritually. Look at the fundamentalists all around...thye bog themselves down with dogma to keep from thinking for themselves.

Just my opinion, coming to you from the Buckle of the Bible Belt, in the state with more churches per capita and per square mile than anywhere else in the world, Macon, Georgia.

My response to the bolded part: I think God's less interested in what we do and more interested in our relationship to him. I mean, he set up codes of morality, and he could have set them up in any way he pleased. I don't see him setting us up like lab rats running a maze, just putting us someplace and watching us go for a goal. I think the codes of morality are more of a help in guiding us into a relationship with him, being what provides us with free choice. If there were no codes, there'd be no choice.

So he could let us strive for the standard; if you go by Biblical history, he did that with the Jews in the Old Testament. But if he's more interested in a relationship than in what we can do, why not provide mercy and stepping in to cover the standard for us?

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: HotChic
Tyler, that post must have taken a fair while to type up. Thanks for contributing your thoughts. My question about your analogy is that it assumes a limited mental capacity. We're not mentally capable of knowing every fish in the pond and still managing the rest of our property. But if God is omnipotent, then he could easily both know and care about the fish in the pond without any mental strain. Why he'd care is obviously a debateable question, but if he cared enough to stock the pond with fish, it seems reasonable that he'd continue to care about the fish.

Granted, a rancher can't have a constant relationship with a bunch of fish, but even if he could, would he want to? I don't think a fish is really capable of thinking much more than "I'm scared" and "I'm hungry". It's hardly going to be an interesting conversation for a person to have day in and day out, even though the fish thinks it's the most important thing in the world.

Of course, if bob could listen to all fish telling him when they were hungry, it's possible that he'd put a lot of effort into making sure they're not hungry or scared. But if he really cared so much, why build the "hell" pond? He could just as easily leave the troublesome fishes to rot away in "earth" rather than moving them to heaven. But of course, there's no way a fish could comprehend 95% of the stuff bob thinks about anyway, so there's no reason to think that a fish would understand why bob does anything that he does...

I just think people have probably overestimated a lot of things, mostly their importance in the grand scheme of things, and their ability to explain things thy don't understand. The bible and the Koran could be two pages that fell out of Bob's notebook called "how to keep a healthy pond". A different fish found each one, translated the part they could understand, made the best guesses as to the vast majority they couldn't understand, and are now living a lifestyle that they think is somehow significant to bob, even though the info they got from him were jsut a few notes that weren't all that important.

Does that mean the bible or the Koran is junk? NO, but people should consider that even if such works did come from god, there is no guarantee that they're important, or even accurate. With out tiny brains I'm sure we're unable to comprehend god's sense of humor or irony.

I'm jsut gonna stop typing now... this is getting long, again...

 

[AreaCode707]

Boggsie, when I'm talking about motivations and actions being judged against a standard, I'm definitely only talking about the One doing the judging.

BTW, thanks guys, for keeping this both interesting, thoughtful, and civil. I know it can be such a mess on Anandtech sometimes when people from both sides jump in with antagonism.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

lol. awesome. I was in the 50th percentile, but a few mother theresa's pushed me into hell... the friggin' bastards. It wouldn't work very well for a religion that was attempting to mandate behavior (eg: christianity), but it's a good idea!

 

[boggsie]

I really do think God is more concerned with knowing us than with what we do, because we do all suck no matter what, neh?

Well, to split hairs ... He does know us and has for all eternity. We need to be concerned with laying down ourselves, surrendering to Him and making a place within ourselves so that He can then reveal Himself and His purpose for us, to us. Then we learn about Him and ultimately about our true identies.

 

[flyfish]

Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.

YES!
I also truly belive everyone will (has) been "saved". I believe that evey sigle one of us was created for a higher purpose. I beleive that God is perfect and that his plan for us is also perfect. God is almighty. He knows the end before it even starts. God will not waste one of us, not one!. I mean, comon'...does God need to have some souls to burn in Hell for a eternity?.
NO!
It is just simple logic.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: flyfish

Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.

YES!
I also truly belive everyone will (has) been "saved". I believe that evey sigle one of us was created for a higher purpose. I beleive that God is perfect and that his plan for us is also perfect. God is almighty. He knows the end before it even starts. God will not waste one of us, not one!.
That is the big picture to me.

One of my qualms about arguments like this is that it completely eliminates the idea of free choice and makes us more like pawns on a chessboard.

 

[bleeb]

I don't believe it eliminates free choice... because which would you rather endure?

Heaven or Hell?

 

[LeeTJ]

HC the way you have defined it, all goodness is comparative, whether you are comparing yourself to a law or to other people.


me i believe that salvation isn't comparative but based on relationship. only those that achieve a relationship (are born again) with God are saved.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: Cerb

OK, God makes the world.
God made Laws for how people are to be judged.
God waits for Benny to keep the ruffians down in Hell (sorry, but I'm having one of those wierd days, and must share my strange visions).
Seriously, God sets up the rules...so why would he have to meet the standard for us? Why not just make us so we could meet the standard, just not without tyring to work at it a bit?
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it seems a bit complicated compared to what would be necessary.

So, cliff's notes version of Christian history:
1. God makes universe. God sets up rules.
2. God makes Man, and tells them to follow the rules.
3. Man breaks rules. Man makes God.
4. God gets His peeps together, and eventually drowns the guys in #3.
5. God becomes a daddy and tries to set Man right again.
6. 500-1500 AD things get screwed up again, and we await The End.

Now, likewise, why not give each of us all we need to know to reach the said standard? After all, we'd still have to work, as we've proven that we don't need God or devils to shoot ourselves in the foot spiritually. Look at the fundamentalists all around...thye bog themselves down with dogma to keep from thinking for themselves.

Just my opinion, coming to you from the Buckle of the Bible Belt, in the state with more churches per capita and per square mile than anywhere else in the world, Macon, Georgia.

My response to the bolded part: I think God's less interested in what we do and more interested in our relationship to him.

...which leaves out those of us who aren't worried about a relationship with Him, because we aren't sure in what way He exists.

I mean, he set up codes of morality, and he could have set them up in any way he pleased. I don't see him setting us up like lab rats running a maze, just putting us someplace and watching us go for a goal. I think the codes of morality are more of a help in guiding us into a relationship with him, being what provides us with free choice. If there were no codes, there'd be no choice.

Here's where I think our worldviews come in. Not to mention my having gone to a Catholic school . We were clearly created in a state of grace. However, we come to this world in a state of sin. We come from grace to be tarnished here, and while we are here, to regain that state of grace, but all the while not having conscious knowledge of it.
If you look at it from that perspective, we aren't rats in a maze. We are each a rat in our own maze.
The big question there is...why did we, or he, bother? What has God to gain from creating any of it, and what do we have to gain from living in it? What can we do here that we can't, couldn't, or wouldn't be able to in Heaven?

So he could let us strive for the standard; if you go by Biblical history, he did that with the Jews in the Old Testament. But if he's more interested in a relationship than in what we can do, why not provide mercy and stepping in to cover the standard for us?

...because that removes responsibility for us. I'm all for being shown the right way. I'm not at all for being given it. This allows, as another has said, 'cheaters' to get through.
Like a parent doing their kid's homework, really. Help 'em out, but don't do any of it for them.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: flyfish

Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.

YES!
I also truly belive everyone will (has) been "saved". I believe that evey sigle one of us was created for a higher purpose. I beleive that God is perfect and that his plan for us is also perfect. God is almighty. He knows the end before it even starts. God will not waste one of us, not one!.
That is the big picture to me.

One of my qualms about arguments like this is that it completely eliminates the idea of free choice and makes us more like pawns on a chessboard.

...just because one is made for a purpose does not mean he will find it and pursue it.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: flyfish

Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.

YES!
I also truly belive everyone will (has) been "saved". I believe that evey sigle one of us was created for a higher purpose. I beleive that God is perfect and that his plan for us is also perfect. God is almighty. He knows the end before it even starts. God will not waste one of us, not one!.
That is the big picture to me.

One of my qualms about arguments like this is that it completely eliminates the idea of free choice and makes us more like pawns on a chessboard.

...just because one is made for a purpose does not mean he will find it and pursue it.

According to flyfish's response, it does. I agree with you entirely though.

[edit] I'm bowing out for tonight. Thanks for the stimulating discussion, guys!

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ
HC the way you have defined it, all goodness is comparative, whether you are comparing yourself to a law or to other people.


me i believe that salvation isn't comparative but based on relationship. only those that achieve a relationship (are born again) with God are saved.

Too bad so many people that say that are the same old idiots and @$$holes.
Disclaimer: I'm surrounded by fundamentalists.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?

"One has to question the story logic of a perfect god creating flawed humans and then punishing them for his mistake." - Don't remember who said that

However, if it can be said that I believe in salvation, I would believe in not comparative salvation. I believe that your actions determine your destiny completely. Thus if you do something bad, your destiny will be affected in a negative way. What others do has no bearing on the effects of your actions.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: LeeTJ
HC the way you have defined it, all goodness is comparative, whether you are comparing yourself to a law or to other people.


me i believe that salvation isn't comparative but based on relationship. only those that achieve a relationship (are born again) with God are saved.

Too bad so many people that say that are the same old idiots and @$$holes.
Disclaimer: I'm surrounded by fundamentalists.

you are saying i'm speaking in cliches.

:shrugs;

i am what i am and i believe what i believe.

here's the thing, in my opinion, you can't just CHOOSE to be born again, it isn't something you INITIATE but is something that is acted UPON you. it doesn't START with you, it starts with God and until it does pretending that you know God is a waste of time.

all of the pretense of religion that we force on our children is all a waste of time. Jesus clearly says that Spiritual things are SPIRITUALLY discerned and that this doesn't happen WITHOUT being born again.

we are just to arrogant and self sufficient to admit that all we can do is wait without even knowing what we're waiting for.