Comparative Salvation?

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
What do you guys think about the idea of comparative salvation - that is, that you're likely to go to heaven because you're as good or better than the next guy, that you're a pretty good person and God wouldn't really send good people to hell - versus the idea of salvation as a natural law - that is, similar to the laws of physics or other natural laws that are, for the point of this question, unchanging, where there's simply a way things work in order to attain salvation?
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
what's 'good people'? does that mean top 50%? or top quarter?

:) I fall on the natural law side of the equation, but I hear a lot of people say, "well, I'm a good person" so I don't have a particular idea about how one defines good.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Why?
Because if I were God, I'd look right over the people who tried to act 'good' to try to be saved, or for fear of not being saved.
...and really, that's the perspective most answers are going to come from. What you think about how other people should be judged.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: Cerb
I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Why?
Because if I were God, I'd look right over the people who tried to act 'good' to try to be saved, or for fear of not being saved.
...and really, that's the perspective most answers are going to come from. What you think about how other people should be judged.

So that makes you a comparative salvation person then, that you're saved by comparison to some non-perfect standard, correct? Nearly everyone tries to act good by their standards though, and naturally everyone who believes in a heaven or hell would have some type of fear of not being saved, so what does that do to your criteria?
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
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I'm not a religious person, but it seems to me that the only fair way would be on a case by case basis. For instance, a person might not be perceived as a good person by an observer, but if the person is trying their hardest and genuinely and truely believes that he is a good person, would it be fair to punish that person for the way he is?

On the other hand a person can complete a laundry list of items necessary for salvation but only be motivated by selfish desires. Would it be fair to reward an evil person who followed the letter of the law for personal gain, while shatting on the spirit of it?


A just and loving God would not be rigid, but would judge a person based on their motivations.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
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Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: Cerb
I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Why?
Because if I were God, I'd look right over the people who tried to act 'good' to try to be saved, or for fear of not being saved.
...and really, that's the perspective most answers are going to come from. What you think about how other people should be judged.

So that makes you a comparative salvation person then, that you're saved by comparison to some non-perfect standard, correct? Nearly everyone tries to act good by their standards though, and naturally everyone who believes in a heaven or hell would have some type of fear of not being saved, so what does that do to your criteria?


If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
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Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?


We were all born what we are by no fault of our own. God is apparently running the show, and could set whatever standard he wants. If he sets a standard so high that none could ever reach it then I guess he wouldn't be a loving God. In that case what would be the point of judging anyone since the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Indeed, what would be the point of trying to reach the standard, being created in such a way?
 

bleeb

Lifer
Feb 3, 2000
10,868
0
0
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.

 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: Cerb
I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Why?
Because if I were God, I'd look right over the people who tried to act 'good' to try to be saved, or for fear of not being saved.
...and really, that's the perspective most answers are going to come from. What you think about how other people should be judged.

So that makes you a comparative salvation person then, that you're saved by comparison to some non-perfect standard, correct?
I would think that judgement would be based on the reasons you did what you did in your life, rather than the actions themselves. It would be based against an objective set of values, not against other people. Otherwise you have the same problem as a bell curve...people that might really deserve it won't get it because a quota has been filled.
Nearly everyone tries to act good by their standards though, and naturally everyone who believes in a heaven or hell would have some type of fear of not being saved, so what does that do to your criteria?
I have no belief nor disbelief of Heaven and Hell. As a human with only six senses (debatable as to whether balance is a sence or simply a use of touch in our organs), I can't say one way or another. However, since absence of proof is not proof of absence[1], I am open to the possibility.

[1] - I don't think I've used, or even heard that, since elementary school!
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.
Add that to a growing list whose most prominent member is Lucifer.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
0
Originally posted by: bleeb
LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY:

HELL is NOT ABSOLUTE. EVERYONE is saved.

If you look in older Hebrew translations of the bible, pre-catholic translation errors, you will find that many words have been mis-translated. The whole notion of going to hell for eternity was to "control" the mindless masses. The real translation says "for ages or for a time"... something like that. This means that there will be a definite beginning and end to the time all you SINNERS are in hell. Therefore, everyone is saved.


I was writing about a generic God/higher power belonging to no particular faith, but this does raise a good point. Having the punishment fit the crime would be another way a loving God could judge but still be fair and loving.

 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: lirion
I'm not a religious person, but it seems to me that the only fair way would be on a case by case basis. For instance, a person might not be perceived as a good person by an observer, but if the person is trying their hardest and genuinely and truely believes that he is a good person, would it be fair to punish that person for the way he is?
Hence my proposal of basing it on why an action was taken. It makes more sense.
On the other hand a person can complete a laundry list of items necessary for salvation but only be motivated by selfish desires. Would it be fair to reward an evil person who followed the letter of the law for personal gain, while shatting on the spirit of it?


A just and loving God would not be rigid, but would judge a person based on their motivations.
...and he'd let cats into Heaven, too, even though they are totally evil :D
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: lirion
Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?


We were all born what we are by no fault of our own. God is apparently running the show, and could set whatever standard he wants.
There's another odd facet to this. If God is running the show, why are we allowed such free reign? And why would he bother trying to get us to save ourselves and all? Based on how humanity has managed, it would appear God started the show, got some popcorn and and sitting in the front row. So just imagine an old guy, glowing, in a white robe, long beard, all that good stuff, sitting in a theater chair digging into some microwave popcorn. IMO it makes this whole thread worthwhile :).
If he sets a standard so high that none could ever reach it then I guess he wouldn't be a loving God. In that case what would be the point of judging anyone since the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Indeed, what would be the point of trying to reach the standard, being created in such a way?
That gets into how far "omnipotent" reaches when it somes to the idea of time. I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole...not because it's taboo, but because my brain would fry trying to figure out plausible possibilities.

 

Lovepig

Senior member
Nov 27, 2000
279
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0
I like the idea of people being judgec by their performance in relation to their potential.

Therefore a retarded guy may not have to do as much to qualify as a mensa member, the homeless may have different expectations than Bill Gates, etc.

I think it's not what we do, but what we do compared to what we could have done. And I heartily agree that the motivation for WHY we do things does have a large impact. It may in fact, be the most important.

Consider the parable of the servants with talents, also consider Abraham sacraficing his son!
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: lirion
Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?


We were all born what we are by no fault of our own. God is apparently running the show, and could set whatever standard he wants. If he sets a standard so high that none could ever reach it then I guess he wouldn't be a loving God. In that case what would be the point of judging anyone since the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Indeed, what would be the point of trying to reach the standard, being created in such a way?

[disclaimer] I'm Christian, so I'm merely debating this along my own viewpoint, not trying to "win converts". [/disclaimer]

Being a loving God, what if he offered a get out of hell free card, covering us with himself so that we're freed from having to reach the standard? That's kinda my perspective of how things work, that there's a natural law to salvation but that God, working within the natural laws he set up, met the standard for us (making him both a merciful and loving God).
 

BatmanNate

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
12,444
2
81
I do not believe that man is sinful by nature therefore salvation, comparative or objective, is somewhat of a moot point in this situation. When human nature itself is called sin, you create a group of uncessesarily guilty people competing over silly things like this.
 

boggsie

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
2,326
1
81
Hmmm ... It appears that any attempt to apply an external standard will fail, because there will always be somebody with a set of their own rules, which will be able to judge themselves more reightous than another.

Therefore, one has to conclude that the only way one can be judged, is by the motivations in ones own heart and there is only One qualified to judge those.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: boggsie
Hmmm ... It appears that any attempt to apply an external standard will fail, because there will always be somebody with a set of their own rules, which will be able to judge themselves more reightous than another.

Therefore, one has to conclude that the only way one can be judged, is by the motivations in ones own heart and there is only One qualified to judge those.

Well put. So are you suggesting that the motivations being judged against a standard of perfection or that actions are judged against motivations?
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
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Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: lirion
Originally posted by: HotChic
Originally posted by: lirion

If imperfect standards are all we have then I guess that would have to be good enough, no?

Except God, by definition, has to be perfect, so what if he's the standard?


We were all born what we are by no fault of our own. God is apparently running the show, and could set whatever standard he wants. If he sets a standard so high that none could ever reach it then I guess he wouldn't be a loving God. In that case what would be the point of judging anyone since the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Indeed, what would be the point of trying to reach the standard, being created in such a way?

[disclaimer] I'm Christian, so I'm merely debating this along my own viewpoint, not trying to "win converts". [/disclaimer]

Being a loving God, what if he offered a get out of hell free card, covering us with himself so that we're freed from having to reach the standard? That's kinda my perspective of how things work, that there's a natural law to salvation but that God, working within the natural laws he set up, met the standard for us (making him both a merciful and loving God).


So that brings us back to the scenario where the evil person completes the list of things necessary to gain salvation, and beats the system?

Also if there were no Hell there would be no Get out of Hell Free card.
 

bleeb

Lifer
Feb 3, 2000
10,868
0
0
There is no possible way for any man to reach "the standard." I don't believe any man has done so besides JESUS.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
First I'll say that I'm not convinced either way whether or not a god exists, but these are my beliefs assuming that some all powerful god does exist:

To a god for whom creating and destroying universes is a matter of a simple thought, we are insignificant. Even though such a god may have created us he has no obligation to really care about us. Just as an analogy, I'm going to make a person (let's call him Bob) "god" and make the people of earth a school of fish. We all live in some little pond called earth. We know there exists a world outside our pond, but we can't really see very much of it, and there doesn't appear to anything living outside it from our very limited view, so we think of ourselves as somehow significant. Now, Bob owns a 40,000 acre ranch. The "earth" pond takes up an acre or two of that. At one point, Bob stocked the pond with fish.

Now, when a fish dies, should Bob even care? Even if we gave bob the power to bring them back to life by putting them in a pond called "heaven", why should he bother? If he could cause a fish eternal torment by throwing it into a pond called hell, why the hell would he do that? Can anyone see why somebody would torture an animal with an intelligence level so far beneath his own for it's misdeeds? The idea that we as people are even capable of comprehending what a god of the power required to create universes would see as good or evil is extremely self absorbed.

Why would bob even view what a fish has done as good or evil? Even if he did, why would his view coincide with what the other fish thought? Let's assume that one fish was a bully... always taking food from the other fish. Now, all the other fish dislike that fish, and think it's evil. Eventually the fish dies, Bob notices, and says "wow, that was the biggest, brightest colored fish in the pond... I think I'll throw it in the 'heaven' pond so I can watch it swim around some more".

Bob saved the fish that he liked. It had absolutely nothing to do with what the other fish viewed as "good" or "evil". Why should anyone think that a god would save people based on what other people thought? A god who thought on the same level as people would make as much sense as a rancher who thinks on the same level as a fish in his pond. The rancher has no reason to care what the fish think, and he has no reason to have any similarities in reasoning with such fish.

Anyway, I guess that means I would believe in salvation based on inherently unknown criteria, as the mind of a person cannot comprehend everything that the mind of a being who can create worlds would have to know. Heck, maybe Bob REALLY likes fish and puts them all in heaven, maybe he doesn't care about them at all anymore, and just lets them rot away in earth. How the hell should the fish presume to know how or why he would do anything. He's probably got horses and cows and things that are much more important to him than fish, anyway.

I hope that made sense... I'm kinda tired.