Compact Liquid Cooling vs Air !!

[StrifeEnix96]

hello everyone..
does anyone know how good is a Compact Liquid Cooling compared to air? i'm thinking of getting the compact liquid cooler like coolermaster seidon or corsair hydro series.. but is air much better and efficient?
thank you so much for your help !!

 

[TheThirdMan]

I'm in the same situation- I'm building a dual xeon workstation and had to choose between air and close loop water systems.

For the same money, air usually will outperform the compact liquid systems (anandtech did a review of the corsair h60,h80 and h100 and this proved to be true in those tests).

However, corsair have recently released a huge number of "refurb" units of their h80s and h100s. I purchased two h80s for £35 each, which is less than half their normal retail price. For that money they will beat pretty much all the air coolers for the same price.

Also they look cool in a case. :ninja:

 

[Agent11]

If you can spend a little more you can do a custom loop as well, and it will outperform most everything.

 

[lehtv]

hello everyone..
does anyone know how good is a Compact Liquid Cooling compared to air? i'm thinking of getting the compact liquid cooler like coolermaster seidon or corsair hydro series.. but is air much better and efficient?
thank you so much for your help !!

Please post your system specs (PSU, case, motherboard, RAM, CPU).

How far do you intend to overclock?

What do you use the PC for - i.e. does overclocking actually help you?

How much do you care about your PC's noise levels?

If you can spend a little more you can do a custom loop as well, and it will outperform most everything.

There's also a lot more effort needed for setting up and maintaining custom liquid cooling, it's not worth it for most people, especially people who haven't done it before.

 

[BrightCandle]

If you are using the mainstream chips (haswell, ivy bridge) don't bother with water cooling. It only really seems to pay off once the wattage of the chip exceeds around 150 watts. A 3930k for example at top over clock can pull 250 watts and is easily thermally limited on air but water can take it another 100-200Mhz of overclock. But that is about the best you would ever see from a custom loop compared to air.

A custom loop can also be quieter than a high end air cooler but its a lot more expensive. The all in one prebuilt water coolers don't tend to be quiet as they don't use very good components and the design complicates making the system quieter.

 

[guskline]

StrifeEnix96, what are your computer specs?

I say this because I just built my first custom water loop after having used Corsair H60, H100, Thermaltake Water 2.0 Performer, Pro and Extreme plus Kraken X60. The AIO (all in one) water coolers are much easier and much less expensive to setup. However, they do have limitations. With few exceptions they rarely exceed a 240 mm radiator (Kraken x60 is 280 and Swiftech has a 320 but much more expensive). Most of the radiators are aluminum which though good is not in the same league as the custom copper rads.

On to custom. You have to be willing to be an amateur plumber and follow directions. You have to be patient and you have to be prepared to maintain the system. You will usually sink a lot more money in the cooling system especially if you cool your gpu.

However the payback can be significant. How?

Take rig 2 below which is my first custom build. I used a XSPC RX 360 rad and because I wanted a bit more thermal "wiggle room" added a 2nd single 120 mm Swiftech MCR120-QDP rad to the rear internally where the 140 mm exhaust fan would be. I used a new Corsair 932 Advanced case (see case remarks below). I cooled both my 3930k cpu OC'd to 4.3Ghz AND my GTX 680 now OC'd 132+ on the core and 500+ on memory.

Prior to the custom cooling I had a Thermaltake Water 2.0 Extreme only on the cpu; the gpu( no overclock) used it's reference stock cooling fan.

Temps originally were as high as 75C on the cpu when running Prime 95 at 4.3Ghz so I kept it at 4.2 Ghz. The GPU when running Furmark etc would hit in the mid to high 70s.

Now with custom cooling? Running at 4.3Ghz Prime never exceeds 57C on the hottest core. The GPU is even more dramatic with the solid OC. NEVER exceeds 43C!

If you have a cpu with higher thermal output AND you want to OC your GPU, custom water cooling will handle it but at the prices mentioned above.

I promised a comment on cases. Buy the LARGEST case you can afford if you venture into custom water cooling. I'm learning that to leverage the most out of a custom system you strive for more radiators and slower speed fans to achieve the cooling.

 

[guskline]

BTW, a shout out to BrightCandle who has helped me IMMENSELY on my first custom water build. I should have aske him first before I bought the CM HAf 932 case!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

I'm in the same situation- I'm building a dual xeon workstation and had to choose between air and close loop water systems.

For the same money, air usually will outperform the compact liquid systems (anandtech did a review of the corsair h60,h80 and h100 and this proved to be true in those tests).

However, corsair have recently released a huge number of "refurb" units of their h80s and h100s. I purchased two h80s for £35 each, which is less than half their normal retail price. For that money they will beat pretty much all the air coolers for the same price.

Also they look cool in a case. :ninja:

Those R all junk, they pay site's like this one to give them good reviews so mindless legions will flock to them like fly's. Oh but the refurbs look great!! :biggrin:

 

[Skott]

The self contained or hydro coolers really come into their own when dealing with smaller cases. Air hsf dont do as well there due to size limits. Of course full water cooling systems are superior to all but again it depends on whether you can fit one into the case in question. There is also more maintenance and costs associated with them. There are pros and cons to each type. Depends on your particular build choice and what you are trying to achieve I think as to which is best.

 

[TheThirdMan]

Those R all junk, they pay site's like this one to give them good reviews so mindless legions will flock to them like fly's. Oh but the refurbs look great!! :biggrin:

:\

 

[BrightCandle]

Anandtech when they have reviewed water (the above linked review and the recent custom loop) they both times have shown there is no real benefit to watercooling a mainstream chip. By and large that is true and has always been true. You can potentially use an AIO watercooler in a more constrained space or for a PC that is going to get moved a lot but it wont bring a higher overclock or reduced noise it just moves the physical cooling element to make it more convenient.

But given a thermally limited CPU then an AIO or a customer kit can and will increase the amount of clock speed available. Its just there aren't that many thermally limited CPUs out there anymore as Intel is mostly shying away from the 150W monsters. The 3930k and the new IB-E will both get thermally limited to an extent on air cooling but an AIO will likely cool it OK but you want 240mm of thick radiator to do it. Most AIO's are just low on radiator area compared to what you need to cool a CPU like that overclocked and do it quietly.

In general I would say watercooling is one of those things you really need to look into only when doing a build of X79 today, on the mainstream it actually performs worse than air for a variety of reasons.

 

[aigomorla]

I'm in the same situation- I'm building a dual xeon workstation and had to choose between air and close loop water systems.

most Xeon boards require high air being pushed though them.

AIO Watercooling is a terrible way to cool a server... not unless u intend to get every last bit of it down to the Northbridge + Southbridge + have a fan dedicated to the ECC ram.

 

[Agent11]

Anyone remember those little spot fan things?

 

[TheThirdMan]

most Xeon boards require high air being pushed though them.

AIO Watercooling is a terrible way to cool a server... not unless u intend to get every last bit of it down to the Northbridge + Southbridge + have a fan dedicated to the ECC ram.

Why do you think this? It's in a large atx desktop case with lots of 140mm fans. Hanging two huge aircoolers off the motherboard will give little space for any air movement (and risk causing damage to the motherboard) compared to AIO. Moving the radiators to a fan mount on the side of the space will give huge amounts of space for air to travel over the ram in the center.

 

[TerryMathews]

Why do you think this? It's in a large atx desktop case with lots of 140mm fans. Hanging two huge aircoolers off the motherboard will give little space for any air movement compared to AIO. Moving the radiators to a fan mount on the side of the space will give huge amounts of space for air to travel over the ram in the center.

Shhh, don't interrupt the AIO hate.

 

[TheThirdMan]

Shhh, don't interrupt the AIO hate.

Yeah I don't get it. For their reduced price you'd be hard pressed to find anything that performs better. Clearly you've got a serious bit of kit that must produce more heat than 95% of the computers on this site and have AIO cooling that's obviously working.

 

[TerryMathews]

Yeah I don't get it. For their reduced price you'd be hard pressed to find anything that performs better. Clearly you've got a serious bit of kit that must produce more heat than 95% of the computers on this site and have AIO cooling that's obviously working.

Not really these L5639s are low voltage and I didn't have to turn the Vcore up much at all for those results.

 

[YBS1]

Yeah I don't get it. For their reduced price you'd be hard pressed to find anything that performs better. Clearly you've got a serious bit of kit that must produce more heat than 95% of the computers on this site and have AIO cooling that's obviously working.

Yeah...Those AIO's, they don't work worth a crap.
____________________________________________
[size=-2]3930K@5.1GHz on Corsair H100i[/size]
[size=-2]XeonW3520@4.458GHz on Corsair H80i[/size]

 

[Agent11]

Eh, personally I would rather an AIO than air. Giant hunks of copper mounted on your cpu are a lifestyle not a necessity. Intel chips these days dont really require insane solutions anyhow for a moderate overclock.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I'm digging my closed loop cooler so far. Got a seidon 120 for $20.- after rebate. Mounted a single speed 950rpm fan. Hooked it all to a hot noisy 7950 GPU. Now it's much quieter and cooler.

 

[Ramses]

I ran a little ole Kuhler 620 till recently with push/pull fans, on a 955BE@3.8 and a 1090T@4ghz, the latter I swapped back to air via a Noctua DH-14 with a pair of PWM 120mm Noctua fans. I saw within a degree or so of the same temps, and it's quieter, and cost more then twice as much. It's working just as well now on an FX-8350 at stock speeds(cause it's plenty damn fast). I liked the AIO cooler, it was tidy, but I was afraid of it crapping out and/or leaking when I was away or asleep, the faith in the quality just wasn't there, nor was it in any of the other AIO coolers. I was real near $150 retail but the DH-14 with PWM fans is quiet, and even if both fans die I have enough case airflow it isn't going to melt the chip at mild loads if I leave it running overnight or something. That was what brought me back to air anyway. I'd try a custom loop at some point, but not on a computer I need as near to 100% reliability from as is reasonably possible from a non-server.

 

[TheThirdMan]

TomsHardware just posted an AIO roundup review. Conclusions the same- for the same price air coolers are better. But if you can get the AIO cheaper, they're better value AND they mentioned that putting huge air coolers on a motherboard is dangerous. I imagine putting two on a xeon board is near suicidal.

 

[YBS1]

TomsHardware just posted an AIO roundup review. Conclusions the same- for the same price air coolers are better. But if you can get the AIO cheaper, they're better value AND they mentioned that putting huge air coolers on a motherboard is dangerous. I imagine putting two on a xeon board is near suicidal.

So the test overclocked a 3960k all the way to 4.25GHz? Huge thermal load there.....Try 5.0GHz and watch that air cooler fall apart.

They do some odd stuff over at Tom's, IIRC they once tested a Swiftech kit as a passive radiator because it didn't come with fans.

 

[aigomorla]

Why do you think this? It's in a large atx desktop case with lots of 140mm fans. Hanging two huge aircoolers off the motherboard will give little space for any air movement (and risk causing damage to the motherboard) compared to AIO. Moving the radiators to a fan mount on the side of the space will give huge amounts of space for air to travel over the ram in the center.

Because u dont have enterprise class fans blowing though the board like it was designed when fitted into a U rack, which is basically a standard ATX case laid flat.

U cant tell me 2 dinky 140mm will come anywhere close to a ducted Enterprise case setup...

There all built like that... even Dells.
Theres a big reason why Dell, HP, and all the other server vendors builds them like that.

Registered ECC ram is NOTHING like desktop unregistered ram... they get super hot as work is being done on them.
There is no Fancy heat pipe cooler on a supermicro / Tyan / intel enterprise class board... There is no blingy stock sink.

(U see how everything is setup to be ducted in a wind tunnel down the board... the ram and NB sink Align in the same direction as wind would travel from high static fans)

So please dont tell people to build servers like you would a desktop.... your asking for FAIL b4 the project even started.

Shhh, don't interrupt the AIO hate.

No its not AIO HATE, its the pure fact on the machine being built WRONG in design to how its heat sinks were made.

Yeah I don't get it. For their reduced price you'd be hard pressed to find anything that performs better. Clearly you've got a serious bit of kit that must produce more heat than 95% of the computers on this site and have AIO cooling that's obviously working.

Again... LOOK at that server case designed to hold a board meant for more then 1 CPU.
Look at the fan layout on how its set.
Those fans are also 2200-2800RPM class, and have way more static pressure then most 140mm fan.

If u say its building a server wrong... then your telling DELL / HP and almost every other enterprise series vendor they are building there servers WRONG.

Here lemme show u what i had to undergo to get a Server Board running SILENT.
Stock Server Board:

Silenced Server Board:

And i still needed some fans.


Stock cooling on a gaming board is much beefier then a server board.
Stock cooling on a gaming board has evolved a boat load... we used to get them like server boards.
Desktop != Enterprise...

Enterprise is about stability (they cant hear you complain about noise)...
Desktop is about Stability with Noise.... if you cant hear everything in uber bit audio over the fan noise... FAIL...

If u had a fan layout just on the RAM... and another on the ALU sinks... u can cool a enterprise board.... however with all those addition of fans... you could of plan'd a little bit better by replacing the stock sinks, and putting ones designed to fill the role your asking for.

I imagine putting two on a xeon board is near suicidal.

just who do u think your talking to?
Theres a reason why everyone voted me the CnC Mod...
ROFL..

NOTE.. i had to replace that black heat sink to a HR heat pipe as that Northbridge got wayyy too hot for comfort.


Expensive Lesson Aigo learned....
You DONT BUILD SERVERS LIKE U DO A DESKTOP!

 

[BrightCandle]

While the Toms didn't really push that 3930k (most do go to 4.4Ghz so 4.25 is a little low) the results do match with what I have seen elsewhere. That is the All in one coolers just don't seem to really perform like custom water. I have a bundle of theories as to why and its probably combination of a lot of things:
1) The radiators are aluminium and tend to be thin or too small. When we are talking about needing 2x 120mm thick radiators they are using 2x120mm thin or 1x140 thick. Its just not enough radiator space and the quality of the radiators is lacking both in material and probably in the manufacturer of the radiator itself. The radiators are often low FPI which means they need high speed fans and hence its quite a noisy solution.
2) The tubing is really very thin. While there isn't much drop in performance with thin tubing there is a notable drop from 1/2" to 10/8 and some of the AIO's are using this notably thin tubing. None of them seem to use 7/16" or 1/2" which is far more common in the custom world
3) The pump is right on top of the CPU which could well be heating that package up a bit. In addition its vibrating onto the CPU and that could reduce the thermal capabilities of the pump itself. The pump itself is pretty small and quite likely not achieving a good flow rate, which while relatively minor in the overall scheme of things compounds with all the other decisions made.
4) The quality of the block really makes a big difference in the cooling potential of a loop. Best to worst waterblocks on a CPU can differ by about 10C and these are often aluminium and in addition not made by the well known to be great water block manufacturers. There is every chance they just plain underperform.
5) The liquid used isn't pure distilled water, it has to contain all sorts of anti corrosives due to the aluminium in the loop. This does degrade cooling potential a little.
6) The fans they use often aren't really that great for radiators.

The more reviews of the AIO's I see the more I am disappointed with their cooling potential. I have a 3930k at 4.4 Ghz 1.3V and it tops out in prime 95 at 55C at the package level. I do that with fans running at 800rpm (basically silent, quieter than any hard drive). So a custom loop can achieve this high performance well above what air can, but the AIO's almost always seem to show they aren't really much better than high end air, they are often more expensive and less performant. I don't think Tom's is alone in this testing or that 0.15Ghz makes much difference in the performance of AIOs, I think the cheap components are really hurting the performance of the all in one loops.