Communist China funding takeover of America by Republican Party.

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
We are going round and round on this one Werepossum. You are being partisan and accusing me of being partisan just because you assume I am as partisan as you are. Your constant mention of Allred - whom I despise - is not helping you make your point.

And this business about lawyers is a bad analogy. I never said that these allegations amount to making out a legal burden of proof in a court of law. What I am saying is that logically, it is rational to assume the absolute worst of any organization that refuses to dislose its funding and motives to the public. And yes, that includes Allred or whatever example on the left you want to come up with, since I know for you this is only about right versus left and which side "wins." Anyway, no, in a logical sense, asking for proof is ludicrous when no one other than the accused has access to proof. It may surprise you to learn that there are cases in the law where a defendant having sole access to evidence can shift the burden of proof from plaintiff to defendant. Sometimes, though not always, the law tracks common sense. In any event, this isn't about what is necessary to prevail in a court of law. It is about what it is logical for people to assume.

As to the Chamber of Commerce in particular, which was the example brought up in the OP, you seem to be arguing that they are transparent because everyone knows they have a "pro-business" agenda. False. It isn't the organization's agenda that is the issue. It's who is funding it. That part is not transparent. And yes, that principle applies to any organization, regardless of its agenda.

In my opinion there needs to be disclosure of funding for political advertisements. This may not solve every problem of someone like Allred, or some equivalent on the other side of the spectrum. But it IS very much necessary.

- wolf
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
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How the fuck can a LAWYER say it is totally fair to accuse an organization of the worst and most malicious kinds of motives and funding when the only thing you know is that you know nothing? With that logic you'd be kicked out of the courtroom so hard you'd ricochet on the way out. "Excuse me, your Honor. I have absolutely no evidence of malfeasance, so I'd like a ruling that will allow me to go look for some." "I have no evidence that your client sleeps with children - but I have evidence that your client DOESN'T sleep with children either, so until I'm privy to every detail of his sex life I'm going to assert that he sleeps with children." That is totally based on your left wing dislike for the Chamber of Commerce taking an adversarial position from your preferred party. You have made exactly zero similar demands from the Teacher's Unions or the SEIU or the ACLU.

It's not like this is some fly-by-night organization, it's the freaking US Chamber of Commerce, a 98 year-old business organization that has habitually protected business, most small businesses, around the country from oppressive or unfair governmental practices and tries to encourage smart governmental action. I can't believe so many liberals have gone completely batshit and are attempting to practice scorched earth policies on the Chamber of Commerce for G-d's sake, all on the fear that the Democrats make temporarily lose the chance to remake our unique country into another glorious European socialist Republic. Jeez, it's not like you won't get another chance in two years.

As far as Allred is concerned, one mo' time: The US Chamber of Commerce is attempting to influence an election. They admit that and have almost a century of the same behavior. It's what they do, they are registered lobbyists with a clear non-partisan agenda. Gloria Allred is trying to trying to influence an election. She does not directly admit it, but she's done nothing else for weeks. She is not a registered lobbyist and supposedly does something far different. How the hell does it make sense that the US Chamber of Commerce's donation lists must be made public, but Allred's funding is sacrosanct? This is especially true if you consider that Allred's backers face no possible governmental sanction, whereas any companies found contributing to anti-Democrat ads will almost certainly face governmental sanctions, if only harassing IRS audits, and organized boycotts from the left.

And the burden of proof is always on the accuser. ALWAYS. This new Democrat world where you levy a charge and demand the accused prove his innocence went out with the witch trials.

Yup, judges who are subject to the appearance of impropriety laws are really going to sympathize with this, and the Birthers are going to shit. Obama is certainly a Kenyan because he won't show his papers.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,921
5,543
136
What joke. All I saw was a mass of bot programs including your own here.

Mommy Mommy, Moonbeam used a bad word. Moonbeam is a racist communist hater and politically incorrect. Communist paid for Republican propaganda has taken over the American mind. War is peace and Republicans are anti racists.

Wake up America. It's sunset in America if we don't stand up and take our country back.

My bad, I forgot what a raging asshole you are. Carry on.
 
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ManSnake

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
4,749
1
0
What's the color that represents the Republican party as of late? Red
What's the the color of Communist China? Red

So why are you so surprised? Like-minded people help each other out!

Long live Chairman Mao!!! Long live Republicans!!!
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Darn those Chinamen, they must be self hating pieces of sh1t morons. I am sure I missed a bunch of other descriptive words from the OP history in P & N.

AP says this = http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_chamber_fight

The Obama administration and its allies are going all out against the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and GOP-leaning groups, accusing them of using foreign money to help finance political ads. Trouble is, they're providing no evidence.

"The problem is not that the allegation is not a big deal," said Hasen, of Loyola Law School. "The problem is that the allegation is not backed by any facts."

OP = uber FAIL.

I am pretty sure he will come back with name calling and spew out his vernom as usual.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
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What's the color that represents the Republican party as of late? Red
What's the the color of Communist China? Red

So why are you so surprised? Like-minded people help each other out!

Long live Chairman Mao!!! Long live Republicans!!!

You think these blithering idiots are going to be able to see this simple fact? They're not even going to get it when their pay check is 6.8 yuan Renmimbi a day.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
126
Darn those Chinamen, they must be self hating pieces of sh1t morons. I am sure I missed a bunch of other descriptive words from the OP history in P & N.

AP says this = http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_chamber_fight



OP = uber FAIL.

I am pretty sure he will come back with name calling and spew out his vernom as usual.

Shit, I thought you were a brave Cuban who hated Communism. Pull your head our of your ass and look around. The Chinese commies are funding the Republican party. Grow a pair, you wimp. It's time for tough guys like you to kick some ass besides your own. We're two of a kind, pal, and I got your back.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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You only see things from an American perspective.

Let me offer you an internationalist's perspective.

Remember, these approaches are all viable in their home countries. It is only when someone gets the idea that they are transferable that we have issues.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM:
* You have two cows.
* You sell one and buy a bull.
* Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
* You sell them and retire on the income.

AMERICAN CAPITALISM:
* You have two cows.
* You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Sell one cow to buy influence with a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public buys your bull.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You sell one, accept a LAW tax promised credit payable in 4 year's time, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
* You are surprised when the cow drops dead.

A FRENCH CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You go on strike because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce 20 times the milk
* You then create clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market them worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

A BRITISH CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* Both are mad.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION:
* You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
* You break for lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You count them and learn you have five cows.
* You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
* You count them again and learn you have 12 cows.
* You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION:
* You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you.
* You charge others for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* You have 300 people milking them.
* You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who reported the numbers.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION:
* You have two cows.
* That one on the left is kinda cute...

I rather suspect that had I submitted this post of yours to peer review and it was published I'd have won the Nobel in Economics instead of the three dingleberries who figured out that dead cows provide sour milk... only to be purchased by he USDA for gifting to the hungry!

I loved your post.... ROFL!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
126
I rather suspect that had I submitted this post of yours to peer review and it was published I'd have won the Nobel in Economics instead of the three dingleberries who figured out that dead cows provide sour milk... only to be purchased by he USDA for gifting to the hungry!

I loved your post.... ROFL!

I don't appreciate somebody injecting humor in a serious thread about a great threat to America.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Code:
And the burden of proof is always on the accuser. ALWAYS. This new Democrat world where you levy a charge and demand the accused prove his innocence went out with the witch trials.

If a person opines in an open forum that XYZ is such or something it seems to me XYZ now has the burden. XYZ may file for slander/libel but they must produce proof of the allegation or in some manner outside a court present their case to discredit the party propounding the opinion, No? The affirmative defense might be a bit vague or even dated but if it is true then the opinion is... seems to me, anyhow.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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I don't appreciate somebody injecting humor in a serious thread about a great threat to America.

Sorry. How about if I teach you something about the stock market?

Once upon a time in a village, a man appeared and announced to the villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each. The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to the forest and started catching them.

The man bought thousands at $10 and as supply started to diminish, the villagers stopped their effort. He further announced that he would now buy at $20. This renewed the efforts of the villagers and they started catching monkeys again.

Soon the supply diminished even further and people started going back to their farms. The offer increased to $25 each and the supply of monkeys became so little that it was an effort to even see a monkey, let alone catch it!

The man now announced that he would buy monkeys at $50! However, since he had to go to the city on some business, his assistant would now buy on behalf of him.

In the absence of the man, the assistant told the villagers; "Look at all these monkeys in the big cage that the man has collected. I will sell them to you at $35 and when the man returns from the city, you can sell them to him for $50 each."

The villagers rounded up with all their savings and bought all the monkeys.

They never saw the man nor his assistant again, only monkeys everywhere!

Now you have a better understanding of how the stock market works.

Live long and prosper.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I don't appreciate somebody injecting humor in a serious thread about a great threat to America.

The biggest threat to America is greed! And the biggest fallacy is that folks don't even know they're being greedy...

IF you wanted to undermine America the way to do it is via the pocketbook... take the money from the people and soon they will revolt... but against whom do they revolt?
Most folks have 401k savings... Most of that is in marketable securities... COWS!
The post by PJ is not only funny but it is symbolic of reality around the world.
Who wins in a scenario like 'cows'? Probably the Russian who is too looped to care... It sure ain't the American Capitalistic way of life seen today.

The only way to win is not to play!

EDIT: Is it not the objective of most to gain at the expense of another? When one is poor or in need one will catch monkeys but when they are a bit less poor they'll buy monkeys... only to be rid of their finances in favor of monkeys...
 
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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
I rather suspect that had I submitted this post of yours to peer review and it was published I'd have won the Nobel in Economics instead of the three dingleberries who figured out that dead cows provide sour milk... only to be purchased by he USDA for gifting to the hungry!

I loved your post.... ROFL!

I am not a particularly religious man, but sometimes I can take comfort in conversations with Him.

PJABBER: What are a million years like to you?

God: Like one second.

PJABBER: What are a million dollars like to you?

God: Like one penny.

PJABBER: Can I have a penny?

God: Just a second...
 
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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
The biggest threat to America is greed! And the biggest fallacy is that folks don't even know they're being greedy...

IF you wanted to undermine America the way to do it is via the pocketbook... take the money from the people and soon they will revolt... but against whom do they revolt?
Most folks have 401k savings... Most of that is in marketable securities... COWS!
The post by PJ is not only funny but it is symbolic of reality around the world.
Who wins in a scenario like 'cows'? Probably the Russian who is too looped to care... It sure ain't the American Capitalistic way of life seen today.

The only way to win is not to play!

Which reminds me of another story.

A trader named PJABBER moved to Northern California and bought a donkey from a farmer named Moon for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.

The next day, Moon drove up to PJABBER and said,

Moon: Sorry, but I have some bad news. The donkey died.

PJABBER: Well, then, just give me the money back.

Moon: Can't do that. I went and spent it already.

PJABBER: OK, then. Just unload the donkey, I'll take him as is.

Moon: What ya going to do with him?

PJABBER: I'm going to raffle him off.

Moon: You can't raffle off a dead donkey!

PJABBER: Sure can. Watch me. I just won't tell that he's dead.

A month later Moon met up with PJABBER and asked,

Moon: What happened with that dead donkey?

PJABBER: I raffled him off, I did. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars apiece and made a profit of $898.

Moon: Didn't anyone complain?

PJABBER: Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I am not a particularly religious man, but sometimes I take comfort in conversations with Him.

PJABBER: What are a million years like to you?

God: Like one second.

PJABBER: What are a million dollars like to you?

God: Like one penny.

PJABBER: Can I have a penny?

God: Just a second...

I'd have found a penny and asked for the second... ():)

I have always known the cork upon the ocean neither relies on gills nor lungs but what it provides to us all is the answer... So long as we breathe we live and to live we must eat but we need nothing more... To seek more we need to learn the way of the cork!
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
I'd have found a penny and asked for the second... ():)

I have always known the cork upon the ocean neither relies on gills nor lungs but what it provides to us all is the answer... So long as we breathe we live and to live we must eat but we need nothing more... To seek more we need to learn the way of the cork!

LOL, true.

Let me offer up one more thought...

The real measure of your wealth is how much you'd be worth if you lost all your money.

:awe:
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
The biggest threat to America is greed! And the biggest fallacy is that folks don't even know they're being greedy...

IF you wanted to undermine America the way to do it is via the pocketbook... take the money from the people and soon they will revolt... but against whom do they revolt?
Most folks have 401k savings... Most of that is in marketable securities... COWS!
The post by PJ is not only funny but it is symbolic of reality around the world.
Who wins in a scenario like 'cows'? Probably the Russian who is too looped to care... It sure ain't the American Capitalistic way of life seen today.

The only way to win is not to play!

EDIT: Is it not the objective of most to gain at the expense of another? When one is poor or in need one will catch monkeys but when they are a bit less poor they'll buy monkeys... only to be rid of their finances in favor of monkeys...

Nice post. It reminds me of the speech about "savings accounts" that Walter Brennan gave Cary Copper in the movie "Sergant York". I looked on the web for a transcript of it and couldn't find it?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Nice post. It reminds me of the speech about "savings accounts" that Walter Brennan gave Cary Copper in the movie "Sergant York". I looked on the web for a transcript of it and couldn't find it?

The Reverend Pile knowing Alvin was principled tried to keep him from the killing... I don't know about the 'savings account' bit... but I do know about...

"Pastor Rosier Pile: See that rock, Alvin? You've been plowin' around that rock a heap o' years.
Alvin: Sure have!
Pastor Rosier Pile: Did you ever think when you start plowin' yer furrows crooked, it's mighty hard to get 'em straight again?
Alvin: I never thought on it much.
Pastor Rosier Pile: It's that-a-way, I reckon, with other things 'sides plowin'. Satan's got ya by the shirt tail, Alvin! "

York was not really an objector to the killing... he was a conflicted man... twixt God and America... to him they were separate... who should he follow... Uncle Sam or God...
 
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nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
The Reverend Pile knowing Alvin was principled tried to keep him from the killing... I don't know about the 'savings account' bit... but I do know about...

"Pastor Rosier Pile: See that rock, Alvin? You've been plowin' around that rock a heap o' years.
Alvin: Sure have!
Pastor Rosier Pile: Did you ever think when you start plowin' yer furrows crooked, it's mighty hard to get 'em straight again?
Alvin: I never thought on it much.
Pastor Rosier Pile: It's that-a-way, I reckon, with other things 'sides plowin'. Satan's got ya by the shirt tail, Alvin! "

York was not really an objector to the killing... he was a conflicted man... twixt God and America... to him they were separate... who should he follow... Uncle Sam or God...

I would think for most people God and Country are seperate aren't they? I guess it never occured to me to think of it any other way. I know that the pledge of allegiance had the words "under God" inserted into it, but words are just words. To me, my spiritual beliefs come first and then man's "laws" come next. That is what freedom is all about, isn't it?

I guess I grew up knowing my Dad had killed for his country so I've never really been conflicted by the possible need for me to do so, but without my history I can sure see Alvin York's conflict. Once you are put into a position of kill or be killed I think most of us would say "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".

I never saw the movie until later in life, probably 40 or better when I first sat down and watched it. I think I had tried to watch it before but thought it was just too "corny". After all, I think it was a bit of a propaganda film meant to stir up feelings of nationalism for the looming war on the horizon at the time. Of course it did it in a conflicted way, it's almost as if the movie was at war with itself.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I would think for most people God and Country are seperate aren't they? I guess it never occured to me to think of it any other way. I know that the pledge of allegiance had the words "under God" inserted into it, but words are just words. To me, my spiritual beliefs come first and then man's "laws" come next. That is what freedom is all about, isn't it?

To Alvin God said, among other things, killing is wrong... don't do it! Uncle Sam said let's go kill some Germans... Alvin was a drinker and hell bound for sure.. until he was hit with the lightening... He figured God gave him a message..
I figure that something is wrong when the wording changed in the commandment of not to kill... IF God comes first then going to war is a bad thing regardless... Let the lions eat you... you'll be with God sooner. That is freedom too, it seems to me.
I suppose I see things based on my vision... what is clear to me is that this war stuff ain't about God nor is America God's only country... All things are God's things at the end of the day. But I will render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...


I guess I grew up knowing my Dad had killed for his country so I've never really been conflicted by the possible need for me to do so, but without my history I can sure see Alvin York's conflict. Once you are put into a position of kill or be killed I think most of us would say "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".

In the War situation that many have found themselves in the survival aspect takes over.
It takes a profound fear of death or disagreement with the Command Authority or a profound and principled person to simply not go cuz God said...
It never entered my mind what God said when I vacationed in Vietnam. Whitehall Street was the seat of all that was American to my young mind. (that is the place folks went in NYC for going in military)


I never saw the movie until later in life, probably 40 or better when I first sat down and watched it. I think I had tried to watch it before but thought it was just too "corny". After all, I think it was a bit of a propaganda film meant to stir up feelings of nationalism for the looming war on the horizon at the time. Of course it did it in a conflicted way, it's almost as if the movie was at war with itself.

I've seen the movie a number of times and there are so many messages in it that provoke thoughts one way or another. It was a masterful job but not really a movie... it was a biography as I saw it... A masterful bit of history about the simple Tennessee farmer and how knowing God resulted in a life time of conflict...
I think he rationalized that his MoH actions killing over 25 and taking those 132 prisoners was the right thing to do... saving the lives of many... including the prisoners. I think he may have seen his presence there an act of God...
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
The Chamber invited scrutiny when they used public outrage as a DEFENSE for allowing shady money in the Citizens United case.

Yes they argued that the money isn't a big deal because their failure to disclose their sources would invite public scrutiny and weaken their effectiveness.

No really, this was their argument, now they want to cry about the scrutiny that they themselves wanted.

"In the amicus brief it filed in the case of Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission -- which allows corporate expenditures in political campaigns -- the Chamber appears to have predicted the backlash it is now facing:

Moreover, it is common experience that, where the supporters of exempt speech are not disclosed, opponents can and do exploit the silence as a reason for discounting the speech. The fact that many speakers decline to identify their donors, even though doing so weakens the credibility of their speech, again confirms that required donor disclosure is burdensome and likely to suppress speech.

***************************************************

In this regard, it is offensively paternalistic for the government to simply assume that listeners are incapable of properly evaluating public speech in the absence of full disclosure of the speaker's funding sources. In their daily lives, Americans regularly discount speech to adjust for questions about its source. See generally McIntyre, 514 U.S. 334. That is doubly so in the area of political speech where speakers with opposing views are not shy in pointing out the absence of donor information. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/11/chamber-argued-that-publi_n_758435.html


So anyways, your tears of unfathomable sadness are especially delicious this morning.