Coming to Christ has done much good for myself and family.

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May 10, 2001
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Ahem. It is not the truth, because as you say in your very same post, "there is no proving or disproving God absolutely", so by definition, it is your opinion.

Just think, you could be spreading misinformation around. God must be very angry at you.
the facts of the situation are the facts of the situation, if you ask I'll let you know what those are, what actually happened is not disputable, only a personal interpretation of them.
 

Shanteli

Senior member
Aug 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: upsciLLion
Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

Do you have proof of that? :p

ups


No, there is no way to prove what I think. But then again....neither can you or anyone else who believes in any type of religion. So please let me rephrase. There is nothing wrong with religion that pertains to faith...anyone can believe what they want. If you believe in God or a higher being that is cool...kudos to you. But religion as an institution with set rules i.e. almost all of the major ones have no validation in my mind. Major religions follow some type of written document...in Christianity being the Bible. They have placed their faith on a religion built primarily on a book that may or may not be "real". This is what I see as illogical and "weak" in the event that you coaxed into a religion. I don't mean to insult anyone or their beliefs...as I said, to each their own...but that is just how I see it.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
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Originally posted by: Chunkee
That appears to be a very bleak outlook on mandkind. I suppose if we all had that view, we could go around and kill off everyone at our whim, or we should just kill ourselves, since everything is meaningless, purposeless and only causing a constant weakness.
No, there are many occasions when a very minor amount of strength can be given up for a great strategic advantage. And it must be remembered that if I kill off everyone on a whim, then people are also free to kill me off on a whim, so advocating being allowed to kill people on a whim is certainly not conducive to my own strength, in fact, it's rather terminal for it.

You say it must be bleak to think that nothing matters. But if nothing matters, then it doesn't matter that nothing matters. And for the record, I don't believe that nothing matters. Just because something makes this life more difficult is not a reason to reject it. To the contrary, I contend that those things that make life more difficult are rather more necessary than we like to believe. Physical conflict builds the muscles, mental conflict builds the mind. The very things that would injure us or cause pain or difficulty are also the things that improve us, as the knife is sharpened with a whetstone.

Originally posted by: Chunkee
I hope that when and if you are down and out and in pain, that you are not left for the wolves to eat you, but rather a kind hand to reach out to you and help.
The hand that would help me in such an instance should be quite wary of getting cut off from the arm to which it is attached. There are many dangerous things in this world, and offering help to those who do not wish to be helped is certainly not the least among them.

Originally posted by: Chunkee
God Bless

JC
You as well.

ZV

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: przero
Zenmervolt - Leviticus 19:18
Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

I don't see how that is suggestive of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". One can love one's neighbor without there being any action on the feeling.

ZV
To love one-another is to try to behave in that manner.
I could argue semantics, but that wouldn't get this anywhere so I'll accept your statement. It doesn't diminish my point, however. Confucius, a man who had no contact with either Judaism or Christianity was able to pull the "grestest commandment" out of thin air because it was (and remains) spectacularly self-evident to any thinking man.

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Chunkee is right on with his assessment of your presumption that it hurts people to be helped... by the logic you put forth slavery Nazism and anything else that requires "might makes right" as it's basis is justified.

if that's your philosophy, that's fine, I'll agree to dis-agree.
My philosophy is similar, but it does not take the highly-flawed short term view as is required to even think that it might be possible to justify nazism or slavery.

Productive workers are happy workers. Slaves are not happy. Slaves are not as productive as paid workers. It's a cold way of reasoning it out, and it's not the entire reason that I reject such things as slavery, it's just to show that slavery is not justified if such a system is properly adhered to.

As for nazism, look what happened to it! That alone is suffient to show that a proper, long-term view of the matter should have scared anyone away from nazism. The collapse of nazism was perfectly predictable.

That said, I reject Kant's "categorical imperative" so at the same time I do not believe that an action must be able to be made universal for it to be moral.

ZV
 

Crypticburn

Senior member
Jul 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

lol;

well, I'm not here to 'convert' anyone, certainly not someone like an Atheist who has faith in a lack of God; But if anyone had experienced the dramatic change of situation i have he would want to yell from the roof tops about it as well :)

i understand that there's been to much of that 'round here so I'm trying to share but use a little more tact than yelling in the middle of the street.

and I've actually gotten into some 1-3K word posts at a time, 20 page long discussions with atheists... such is how I've found answers enough to satisfy myself, if not someone who has faith in a lack of God.

but that's not what I'm trying to do here, just want to share what important is going on with me with my old friends *like yourself* on the off-topic board.


I have to respond to this statement (emphasis all mine). Just to start, I consider myself an atheist. I lack faith in god(s)/supernatural being(s), but this requires no faith on my part. It is the job of the person making the claim to support and justify their claim. Since I've seen no evidence supporting the existance of Zeus/Yahweh/Jehovah/Shiva/etc, I do not believe they exist. This belief requires no faith on my part.

Crypticburn
 

Crypticburn

Senior member
Jul 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: Chrishuff1
Thats why people won't accept Christ, because they put logic and all this other crap into it rather then just believing. It will surely be a sight to see on the judgment day when all those who have put down Christianity finally realize the truth. Many tears will be shed....

This is awesome flamebait! I enjoy your close-minded views, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter! Please be sure to send me a stack weekly, as I would like to warm my house... *cough* distribute it to my neighbors.

You blindly accept your triumvirate of supreme being(s), and just as blindly dismiss all others. We'll see when meet Allah/Buddah/nothing/etc. If one follows your process, blindly dismissing christianity is another solution.

Crypticburn
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: Crypticburn

I have to respond to this statement (emphasis all mine). Just to start, I consider myself an atheist. I lack faith in god(s)/supernatural being(s), but this requires no faith on my part. It is the job of the person making the claim to support and justify their claim. Since I've seen no evidence supporting the existance of Zeus/Yahweh/Jehovah/Shiva/etc, I do not believe they exist. This belief requires no faith on my part.

Crypticburn
This is just semantics, but unless you refuse to admit that it is possible for a god to exist, then you're not an atheist, you're a strong agnostic. The definition of atheism is a doctrine that no diety exists. In other words, strict atheism is a positive statement that no god, gods, or goddesses exist and all positive claims require proof or faith. However, 99.9% of the time when people use the term "atheist" they really mean that they are a "strong agnostic", of which the definition is someone who believes either that the majority of the evidence we have points to a lack of a diety, or that there is not sufficient evidence for a diety but who admits that it is not possible to have conclusive evidence either way.

ZV
 

Semper Fi

Golden Member
Dec 2, 1999
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Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

You missed the point and/or did not comprehend the original post. It isn't about religion, it's about a personal relationship with Christ.
They are not one and the same. Religion does not save a person, Jesus Christ does. :sun:

If you claim to be an atheist, then atheism is your religion. (The belief is pursued with zeal and has become a religion.)
 

Shanteli

Senior member
Aug 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: Semper_Fi
Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

You missed the point and/or did not comprehend the original post. It isn't about religion, it's about a personal relationship with Christ.
They are not one and the same. Religion does not save a person, Jesus Christ does. :sun:

If you claim to be an atheist, then atheism is your religion. (The belief is pursued with zeal and has become a religion.)

I didn't "claim" to be anything. And you are wrong...if you have a personal relationship with Christ it means that you must believe in him meaning that you are a Christian or some split off of that religion. So this post IS in fact about religion.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: przero
Zenmervolt - Leviticus 19:18
Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

I don't see how that is suggestive of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". One can love one's neighbor without there being any action on the feeling.

ZV
To love one-another is to try to behave in that manner.
I could argue semantics, but that wouldn't get this anywhere so I'll accept your statement. It doesn't diminish my point, however. Confucius, a man who had no contact with either Judaism or Christianity was able to pull the "grestest commandment" out of thin air because it was (and remains) spectacularly self-evident to any thinking man.

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Chunkee is right on with his assessment of your presumption that it hurts people to be helped... by the logic you put forth slavery Nazism and anything else that requires "might makes right" as it's basis is justified.

if that's your philosophy, that's fine, I'll agree to dis-agree.
My philosophy is similar, but it does not take the highly-flawed short term view as is required to even think that it might be possible to justify nazism or slavery.

Productive workers are happy workers. Slaves are not happy. Slaves are not as productive as paid workers. It's a cold way of reasoning it out, and it's not the entire reason that I reject such things as slavery, it's just to show that slavery is not justified if such a system is properly adhered to.

As for nazism, look what happened to it! That alone is suffient to show that a proper, long-term view of the matter should have scared anyone away from nazism. The collapse of nazism was perfectly predictable.

That said, I reject Kant's "categorical imperative" so at the same time I do not believe that an action must be able to be made universal for it to be moral.

ZV


thanks for outlining why morality should not be relativistic to utility... we just never know for sure what's properly 'utilitarian', and things like killing those that are a drag on society is done.

but i know for sure that if you live a Godly life you'll have the best life you can.

So this post IS in fact about religion.
depends on your personal definition of religion.

i believe that religion is a particular set of dogmatic-laws that you adhere to as part of your spiritual convictions.

having a spiritual connection, and having spiritual convictions does not make for something religious, what makes something religious it when you do things because of the spiritual.

for example:
my relationship with the Lord Jesus, and God Almighty is not a religious thing, just a matter of spiritual connection.

when i sayif you ask Jesus to be lord of your life, coming to him with a humble heart, accepting of his eternal forgiveness you to will be filled with the Love of God it's not religious, just statements about a relationship I've benefited from.

BUT:
what people do because of a spiritual relationship, not the relationship itself, but the life changes, is the religion.

if i said "you must be baptized, take the lords supper, and say 'meka leka hi, meka hiny ho' 20 times a day in order to be saved" then it's religious.

but then the definition of 'religion' in the court system today is so wide that you could say encouraging kids to brush their teeth is 'promoting a religion'
 

Staver

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
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LordMagnusKain. I am happy for you as is God. You actually came to the right place to strengthen your faith. I'd love it if you PM your personal experience.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
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Good for you. Not my cup of tea. I am not quick to accept prepackaged spirituality. If I ever have an epiphany and become spiritual, I doubt it will be one of the existing religions.
 

Semper Fi

Golden Member
Dec 2, 1999
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I didn't say you claimed to be anything. Hence the if. Perhaps I should've typed 'A person' instead of 'you'.

A person can claim to believe in God and not accept the salvation of Christ. Religion is the belief in God or a supernatural being and how a person expresses their beliefs.

When most people hear or use the term religion it is to signify an institution, for example the Roman Catholic Church, Southern Baptist...

A relationship with Christ is much more than that.

I think I can understand your point. However, this post is about the saving grace of Christ. So yes, religion is involved, but not what the post is about.

Try to see it from my point of view for a second

LordMagnusKain---BUT:
what people do because of a spiritual relationship, not the relationship itself, but the life changes, is the religion.

 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
Good for you. Not my cup of tea. I am not quick to accept prepackaged spirituality. If I ever have an epiphany and become spiritual, I doubt it will be one of the existing religions.

If you seek out what is good you will find it, don't dismiss the basis of a bunch of mans flawed institutions as flawed itself.. they wouldn't have done nearly as well as they have if it where not for a basis of truth;

i suggest you read what you can find and then just open your heart to what you find are words of true good.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Ahem. It is not the truth, because as you say in your very same post, "there is no proving or disproving God absolutely", so by definition, it is your opinion.

Just think, you could be spreading misinformation around. God must be very angry at you.
the facts of the situation are the facts of the situation, if you ask I'll let you know what those are, what actually happened is not disputable, only a personal interpretation of them.
No no.. That isn't what I meant.

I'm not denying what happened to you. I cannot, it is your experience; not mine.

However, I can question why you believe it/they/whatever happened, just as easily as I can question anything else that is zealously presented as being fact.

I should try and clarify my beliefs, or something. I don't consider myself a blind, close-minded fool in the slightest. Like I've said, I used to believe... but my mind has doubts because of things I have learned over the last few years. Does that make me a bad person? No, of course not.. I'm the same person I always was. Except now, I believe differently, I have a different outlook on life, and it is certainly not negative.

It's kinda like.. I learned everything I knew before, from my Dad. But the somewhat ironic thing is that.. He's also taught me how not to be. I see how he tries to work things, and how it doesen't work for him. So, especially now that I have so many other questions, I really start to question his whole belief system, frankly.

He doesen't understand the way the world works. He uses spiritual metaphors and other such "old world" explinations to explain things. I don't need those type of things to explain such simple concepts as weather, so of course I do not believe those things. For him, it helps explain the "bigger picture"(which is composed of non-tangible concepts and things that require no logical thought.. just faith), because it all fits together. But my picture is bigger and far more detailed since I understand concepts like high and low pressure, the jet stream, convection, tornados, hurricanes, etc. That is just one example, to get my point across.

Religion and "mystical" beliefs' purpose is to explain the unexplainable.

Where do you draw the line? There are certainly people that are more intelligent than I, that understand the world and it's workings far better.

I guess the point of that is to say that I basically do not believe in and do not require mystical explinations for things. There are certainly things that I don't know, and there are things that nobody knows yet, but I'm a firm believer that everything has a logical explination.

I know there are things that we don't know. I do believe in some form of "karma", in the way that every action and thought you have effects you and things around you(and even the things not so around you) in ways that we don't quite understand yet.

Some VERY interesting IMO, books kind-of skirting this subject are The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins, Secrets of the Soil by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird(which I haven't personally read yet), and The Secret Life of Your Cells by Robert S. Stone.

Very interesting and mind-expanding stuff.

Anyway.. I'm not close-minded enough to believe that I know it all, or that there is absolutely no "God", or that there is absolutely a God for that matter..

I just have some major problems with God-fearing religion.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: SammySon
How many people have had better lives because there is no god?

How many people have had better lives because of the salvation of God?

The existence of God and Salvation doesn?t prove logically correct or incorrect; but it does prove good and Positive:

So, would you rather be logically unsure, or spiritually good?
How many people have died in the name of religion and god?
rolleye.gif

A lot fewer than have died in the name of Christ than godless ideologies. Just count the number that have have been killed in the Soviet Union and China alone.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Ahem. It is not the truth, because as you say in your very same post, "there is no proving or disproving God absolutely", so by definition, it is your opinion.

Just think, you could be spreading misinformation around. God must be very angry at you.
the facts of the situation are the facts of the situation, if you ask I'll let you know what those are, what actually happened is not disputable, only a personal interpretation of them.
No no.. That isn't what I meant.

I'm not denying what happened to you. I cannot, it is your experience; not mine.

However, I can question why you believe it/they/whatever happened, just as easily as I can question anything else that is zealously presented as being fact.
ok i got ya, this is how i see it:

if you try as hard as you can to push a crushing stone off of you, and fail constantly, eventually ask for help, then the next time you push the stone off it's Finlay gone... you can say "i did it myself" or you can give credit where credit is due.

I should try and clarify my beliefs, or something. I don't consider myself a blind, close-minded fool in the slightest. Like I've said, I used to believe... but my mind has doubts because of things I have learned over the last few years. Does that make me a bad person? No, of course not.. I'm the same person I always was. Except now, I believe differently, I have a different outlook on life, and it is certainly not negative.
everyone questions their faith, if you palce faith and see it's return you can learn to trust in it.

It's kinda like.. I learned everything I knew before, from my Dad. But the somewhat ironic thing is that.. He's also taught me how not to be. I see how he tries to work things, and how it doesen't work for him. So, especially now that I have so many other questions, I really start to question his whole belief system, frankly.
my parents where the definition of what not to be like... all while my dad said he was a Christian... but you never know the heart of anyone else, so you can never tell what's actualy going on.

He doesen't understand the way the world works. He uses spiritual metaphors and other such "old world" explinations to explain things. I don't need those type of things to explain such simple concepts as weather, so of course I do not believe those things. For him, it helps explain the "bigger picture"(which is composed of non-tangible concepts and things that require no logical thought.. just faith), because it all fits together. But my picture is bigger and far more detailed since I understand concepts like high and low pressure, the jet stream, convection, tornados, hurricanes, etc. That is just one example, to get my point across.
God gives us the ability to reason, and in having faith in him we are not asked to set that aside... not by God at lest, maybe by some humans who have trouble graping the bigger picture... but in the end there is always something grander that we can't quite wrap our minds around.
Religion and "mystical" beliefs' purpose is to explain the unexplainable

Where do you draw the line? There are certainly people that are more intelligent than I, that understand the world and it's workings far better.
for me, explaining how things work in no way changes the fact that a greater power set it all in motion.

maybe someone believes that a god makes it rain, while another in high pressure systems hitting low pressure systems causing rain... the scientific definition is much more usefully, but the mystical one isn't necessarily 'wrong' is he?

one person says gravitons hold us to the ground, another the will of God.. well how do you define a graviton? the way i see it, working out exactly how God's creation functions does not mean that God does not make i function.
I guess the point of that is to say that I basically do not believe in and do not require mystical explinations for things. There are certainly things that I don't know, and there are things that nobody knows yet, but I'm a firm believer that everything has a logical explination.
I agree, every thing does have a logical explanation; I believe God created a universe of order, everything that happens is because of a law that can be clearly defined qualified quantified and maped...

But that in no way means that God didn't set it all up.. look at the complexities, the laws of governance of existence, who or what defined it all? God defines himself that He is that anything is.

I know there are things that we don't know. I do believe in some form of "karma", in the way that every action and thought you have effects you and things around you(and even the things not so around you) in ways that we don't quite understand yet.
when it comes to that aspect of life, i have no idea, but i do know that psychological speaking freedom from the karma debts of the past through Jesus is quite powerful.

Some VERY interesting IMO, books kind-of skirting this subject are The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins, Secrets of the Soil by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird(which I haven't personally read yet), and The Secret Life of Your Cells by Robert S. Stone.
"the God molecule" is an interesting book about DMT, the chemical in the brain that is released when you have a 'spiritual' experience. But that this exists does not God disprove, it simply proves that it requiters faith to believe in God. I believe if you put faith in God he will not disappoint.


Anyway.. I'm not close-minded enough to believe that I know it all, or that there is absolutely no "God", or that there is absolutely a God for that matter..

I just have some major problems with God-fearing religion.
I still say that logical uncertainty is nothing in comparison to being spiritually blessed.