College Football Question

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MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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In college football, if I am not mistaken, you are down once the ballholder's knee hits the ground.

I was just flipping channels and they are showing last year's UCLA/USC game and I noticed that the holder on an extra point had his knee down.

Shouldn't the play be dead the moment he catches the ball? Or is there a special rule for holding kicks? Or is that just overlooked by the refs?

MotionMan (Who knows a LOT about football rules otherwise, but never thought about this before)
 

95SS

Golden Member
Nov 30, 2003
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NCAA Rule 4-1-3 - A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: a.When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar, when a runner is out of bounds, or when a runner is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II). b.When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule)
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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NCAA Rule 4-1-3 - A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: a.When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar, when a runner is out of bounds, or when a runner is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II). b.When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule)

Well, there you go.

Thanks.

MotionMan
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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by definition, the extra point holder is not a "runner"... unless he has run with the ball.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,123
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Well, there you go.

Thanks.

MotionMan

I just re-read the bolded part after a good nights sleep. That actually does not answer the question because that exception applies to the kicker, not the holder.

The mystery continues.

MotionMan
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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I wish they would allow players to tackle each other after the whistle. It'll help weed out the pansies and hopefully make them whine less by the time they get to the NFL.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
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I just re-read the bolded part after a good nights sleep. That actually does not answer the question because that exception applies to the kicker, not the holder.

The mystery continues.

MotionMan

The exception is written for the ball, not any specific person. "the ball may be ... advanced."
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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The exception is written for the ball, not any specific person. "the ball may be ... advanced."

It still does not answer the question why the ball is not dead when a holder with his knee down catches the ball.

The rule bolded above refers to the ball and a player who "has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate". It does not say anything about the holding teammate and his knee.

MotionMan
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
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It still does not answer the question why the ball is not dead when a holder with his knee down catches the ball.

The rule bolded above refers to the ball and a player who "has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate". It does not say anything about the holding teammate and his knee.

MotionMan

Put the lawyer glasses on. When a kick is simulated, there's an exception to the rule. It doesn't specify which player has that exception, just that some player has to simulate the kick. Well, it sort of does, but it grants a general exception "the ball may be advanced" when the condition is met.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,123
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Put the lawyer glasses on. When a kick is simulated, there's an exception to the rule. It doesn't specify which player has that exception, just that some player has to simulate the kick. Well, it sort of does, but it grants a general exception "the ball may be advanced" when the condition is met.

Interesting way of looking at it and I guess it can be interpreted to include the "teammate" in the exception (i.e. as you said, focus on the ball).

Maybe I should go back to sleep ;)

MotionMan
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Did you read that somewhere (link?) or did you make that up?

MotionMan

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR09.pdf

rule 2, Section 27, Article 3, B

A holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking
tee. During a scrimmage-kick play, he remains the holder until no player
is in position to make the kick or, if the ball is kicked, until the kicker​
has had a reasonable time to regain his balance.


rule 2, section 27, ARTICLE 7

a. The runner is a player in possession of a live ball or
simulating possession of a live ball.​
b. A ball carrier is a runner in possession of a live ball.



By rule the holder is given a seperate and distinctly different definition from a ball carrier and therefore, should not be considered a ball carrier.

He is the holder until he ceases to be the holder, at which time if he is still in posession of the ball, he is then considered a ball carrier/runner.



Confirmed by http://en.allexperts.com/q/Football-Instruction-2069/2010/8/Placekick-holder-knee.htm by Vic Winnek (NCAA Football Official)

 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR09.pdf




By rule the holder is given a seperate and distinctly different definition from a ball carrier and therefore, should not be considered a ball carrier.

He is the holder until he ceases to be the holder, at which time if he is still in posession of the ball, he is then considered a ball carrier/runner.



Confirmed by http://en.allexperts.com/q/Football-Instruction-2069/2010/8/Placekick-holder-knee.htm by Vic Winnek (NCAA Football Official)

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Now THAT is an answer.

Thanks.

/thread.

MotionMan
 
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