cold weather- car start struggles

[thedeliman]

hi,

just saw a recent thread by Wag in boston about this topic, and wanted to see if there are add'l thoughts on the subject. (very appropriate, since i have to drive to a job interview the next day)

my car is a 2yo civic, and it's basically a lemon as far as starting is concerned. even in good weather, it can occasionally take 3-5 seconds of cranking to start (count it; it's a long time).

now that it's some insane # like 30 below here in boston, i've been having a worse time starting. now, when i turn the key, it's like the car dies for a second, then shudders back to life 2 seconds later and barely turns over.

just got the ignition system checked out, but they said there's no problem. i somehow don't fully believe that.

any advice on what I should look for/how to solve this? (short of packing snow around the engine block for insulation )

cheers :beer:

 

[Windogg]

Your sig is incorrect

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Bad battery?

My 93 LX takes about half a second to turn over, even in those -30 days.

- M4H

 

[Eli]

I agree, sounds like a weak battery.

If it's not.. maybe you've not changed the oil in the last 2 years?

Or you mistakenly filled the engine up with gear oil?

If that's not it.. malfunctioning sensor.

 

[thedeliman]

i can't quite remember if it was ralph wiggum or homer.
either way, time for a new simpsons line for the signature...

 

[thedeliman]

i am starting to suspect it's a weak battery. SO-I guess I'll bring it to some other reputable shop, have them check/fix it, and ask honda village to reimburse me (since it specifically says on their invoice that "battery and alternator tested fine")? any suggestions for the boston area?

what is a malfunctioning sensor, and how does it affect turnover time?

i change my oil religiously every 3 months...maybe a bit excessive, dunno...



thanx!

 

[TechnoKid]

What kind of civic? And how many miles?

I'd take it to another shop. That one obviously couldn't diagnose your problem, it is clearly evident that you have one. On a two year old car, there's not much that I can think of that could cause it to have trouble starting.

My first guess as with any car is to have the ignition (distributor), fuel (fuel pressure regulator, pump), and starter relay and ignition relay checked out. Injectors may be clogged, or perhaps your fuel filter is bad. Get the spark plugs checked too; they could be worn or fouled somehow and causeing the engine to miss when it's trying to start, causing the "shudder to life" that you mention. Maybe the engine isn't properly grounded to the chassis (I've seen this before). Point is, there is a host of things that could be wrong, but your civic is pretty new.

edit: also, what kind and what weight of oil are you using?

 

[thedeliman]

thx for reply-

civic lx. oil type is 5w20 (don't know if that's the weight or even a winterized version, however; they simply put in whatever they want during the oil change)

man- all those possibilities... now where am i gonna find a dealer willing to go thru even 1/4 of that, especially since my car is still ON warranty (if it were off warranty, they'd go nuts and probably suggest even more expensive diagnostic tests than those you've mentioned here)...

more realistically- should I go to a reputable private mechanic, have this problem carefully diagnosed/fixed, then demand a refund from the honda dealer?

 

[thedeliman]

oh btw- i only have ~12,000 miles

 

[CraigRT]

sounds like a leaky fuel injection system or something.. weak battery or not, the car either won't start, or will just crank slowly until it starts (should be about the same amount of time also) it shouldn't literally take 3-5 seconds. that IS a long time on a new car.

 

[Thegonagle]

Go to a different dealership or request that a different tech have a look at it. Describe the symptoms accurately. If it has trouble when the engine is cold, they won't get far diagnosing a warm engine, so expect to leave the car overnight.

As an aside, I bet your alternator and battery are both fine.

 

[shekondar]

Are you using the right gas (using the octane level recommended by the mfr.)? My truck will barely start if I use gas with too high octane. Also, try getting gas from a different station (there's this one place I can't buy gas from because my truck always runs like sh!t on their gas).

 

I have an 04 subaru that kinda struggles in the cold.
This year has been really cold, so I just attribute it to that.

 

[thedeliman]

i think i did leave the car overnight once last year, "couldn't reproduce customer complaint" (that seems to be a popular catch-phrase among a few warranty-entitled service bills that I've seen).

i mean, i've been having a problem with difficult starts almost soon after buying the car, but 2 quick observations: a) it would almost always be the first start of the day (warm or cold weather), with subsequent starts (eg, after buying groceries) <b> much </b> easier;
b) it's really bad this winter, but still the same pattern (first start after a very long period is extremely bad, subsequent starts are ok).

btw-anyone from the boston area that knows of a reputable mechanic?
all of your input is appreciated!
-karl

 

[Evadman]

If ti is turning over at normal speed, then it is unlikely to be the battery. If it gets worse when cold, it is likely that the engine is not getting enough fuel enrichment during starting. An engine needs more fuel when cold then at nromal op temp. Remember chokes? Well, FI engines do not have chokes. They require another method of fuel enrichment. This could be either an eincrease in fuel pressure (done py the pressure regulator) or a dedicated cold start injector. I believe your vehicle uses increased fuel pressure.

Have the place you take it do a fuel pressure and volume test. It should still be under warranty. For warranty work, it usually has to go to a dealer. Not neccessarly the dealer you got it from though.

 

[Ornery]

You don't, by any chance, hold your foot down on the gas pedal while cranking, do you?

 

[thedeliman]

thx for reply

no, foot is not on the gas pedal while cranking.

also, problem is best summed up as "bad" in fair weather and definitely "worse" in cold weather. It always seems to be worst during the first crank of the day, and problem disappears during the 2nd, 3rd, etc... ignitions of the day (for example, it's a pain to start the car to go buy groceries in the AM, but not a problem after I'm done buying groceries)

i *have* been told to turn the key to ACC, wait five seconds, then actually crank. That worked for a short while, but is pretty much useless now.

-karl

 

[deftron]

Throw water on it

 

[boyRacer]

i say dirty throttle body...

actually it could be lots of things...

 

[KEV1N]

My girlfriend's 02 Civic does the same thing... and my 04 Accord has done it on occassion. The reason (excuse?) is that the ECU tries to start the engine as lean as possible to control emissions. You have to turn the key to ACC until the fuel gauge registers, indicating you've built up enough fuel pressure. Then crank it. You could also try holding the gas pedal 1/2 way down while cranking.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: thedeliman
thx for reply

no, foot is not on the gas pedal while cranking.

also, problem is best summed up as "bad" in fair weather and definitely "worse" in cold weather. It always seems to be worst during the first crank of the day, and problem disappears during the 2nd, 3rd, etc... ignitions of the day (for example, it's a pain to start the car to go buy groceries in the AM, but not a problem after I'm done buying groceries)

i *have* been told to turn the key to ACC, wait five seconds, then actually crank. That worked for a short while, but is pretty much useless now.

-karl

I agree with Evad, sounds fuel-pressure related. Maybe your fuel pump is somewhat defective.

 

[Willoughbyva]

If it isn't under warranty you could try (I forget which) Advance or Auto Zone autoparts stores and they will check your battery for free.

 

[thedeliman]

updates:

1) I "demanded satisfaction" from Honda (wrote a legalese letter to Honda) under the lemon law of MA, requiring them to send a more qualified technician to look at my car. I am sick of chasing this problem with no solution off & on for the past 2 yrs.

2) if they can't fix the problem, then one of the things I'll do in the meantime is go to the pros who know what they're doing (Good Time Garage by the Car Talk brothers in Cambridge). I have the address if someone needs it.

will keep you guys posted.

Thanks!
karl