Coal-fed lunacy in corn cob country

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
green car congress
The City Council of Des Moines, Iowa, is trying to decide between two competing proposals for a $200-million, 100 million gallon per year ethanol plant?one powered by coal, the other by natural gas?and is currently divided on which project to select. The report now goes into the decision mix.

Frontline?s analysis of a plant that would produce 50 million gallons of ethanol a year show a coal-powered facility would release as much as 207,000 tons of carbon dioxide a year while a natural gas-powered plant would emit 108,000 tons.
It's nice when it comes home to roost that ethanol from corn is so ridiculous that even corn country is looking for other methods.

Curiously some supporters of the coal plan are even claiming that using coal today will facilitate the development of switchgrass burners . . . must be Clear Skies and Healthy Forest advocates as well.:roll:

One of the posts after the article probably captures the issue best . . . basically the plants are for money NOT for energy independence and even less so for conservation or pollution control. Thank goodness for California . . .
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
It's pretty bad how regional interests can corrupt policies. Tobacco farmers had way too much political power for way too long; now it's corn farmers/industry. Why do we see unhealthy high fructose corn syrup in so many foods? The corn industry can get it in?

It's too bad Iowa has disproportionate influence over the presidential candidates...
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Why am I not surprised?
Don't we have a long history in the US of regional farming interests trumping everything?
King Cotton even caused a civil war.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,841
6,381
126
Originally posted by: OrganizedChaos
why not just burn the corn for electricity?

hehe, probably a good idea. Until someone figures out that Hay and Straw will work just as well. Then the Corn Farmer will be driving his tractor all over the Capitol Lawn.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
green car congress
The City Council of Des Moines, Iowa, is trying to decide between two competing proposals for a $200-million, 100 million gallon per year ethanol plant?one powered by coal, the other by natural gas?and is currently divided on which project to select. The report now goes into the decision mix.

Frontline?s analysis of a plant that would produce 50 million gallons of ethanol a year show a coal-powered facility would release as much as 207,000 tons of carbon dioxide a year while a natural gas-powered plant would emit 108,000 tons.
It's nice when it comes home to roost that ethanol from corn is so ridiculous that even corn country is looking for other methods.

Curiously some supporters of the coal plan are even claiming that using coal today will facilitate the development of switchgrass burners . . . must be Clear Skies and Healthy Forest advocates as well.:roll:

One of the posts after the article probably captures the issue best . . . basically the plants are for money NOT for energy independence and even less so for conservation or pollution control. Thank goodness for California . . .

I've known for quite some time Iowa and many of it's residents hate America.

That has been evident by rabid radical posters here that come up with America hating things worse than many Texans even here.

Are there any real Americans left in Iowa?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: OrganizedChaos
why not just burn the corn for electricity?
Because it would be much more efficient to use the corn to feed a hamster army. I bought stock in hamster-wheel-producers. It's the future of power generation!
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: OrganizedChaos
why not just burn the corn for electricity?
Because it would be much more efficient to use the corn to feed a hamster army. I bought stock in hamster-wheel-producers. It's the future of power generation!

Any ones you can suggest?

 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Heh, I'm on your side, and I'm from Iowa, but reside in Texas. Just thought I'd point that pointless fact out.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,700
48,484
136
Because it would be much more efficient to use the corn to feed a hamster army. I bought stock in hamster-wheel-producers. It's the future of power generation!

:laugh:





It's amazing to me no one of influence in Iowa seems to have heard about soy or switchgrass, or simply doesn't care. But at least some are catching on to the bs that is ethanol via corn.

Craig, I believe high fructose corn syrup reached it's level of use due to simple economics, it's one of the cheapest sweeteners around. But I agree with your point about corporate muscle determining the path for political and social issues, definetely one of capitalism's lamer aspects.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
This is the shear stupidity of the ethanol industry.
Lets burn a bunch of natural gas or coal to make less efficient fuel for cars.

I cant imagine turning that coal into gas is any less efficient, but it doesnt subsidize the farmers.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
This is the shear stupidity of the ethanol industry.
Lets burn a bunch of natural gas or coal to make less efficient fuel for cars.

I cant imagine turning that coal into gas is any less efficient, but it doesnt subsidize the farmers.

Actually, farming for the first time in many, many years is starting to look like a profitable business again.

And its a double egded sword. While ethanol is a step in the right direction, its gonna hurt. As an example, a ethanol plant close to where I grew up took half of all the corn produced in something like 3 counties. Thats a HUGE amount of corn. And I know of something like 5 more plants going up in the area.

Point is, the move to ethanol will make crop prices skyrocket. Almost every crop is up at least 50% per bushel if not much more. The downside is, your everyday Joe is going to feel it in the grocery store and wonder why his food is getting so expensive.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Craig, I believe high fructose corn syrup reached it's level of use due to simple economics, it's one of the cheapest sweeteners around. But I agree with your point about corporate muscle determining the path for political and social issues, definetely one of capitalism's lamer aspects.

Thanks for the response.

Right, but what role did government policies such as subsidies play in it being one of the cheapest sweeteners around?

And the people making the buck off selling it had no price to pay for the health issues it causes, just as with tobacco farmers.

I don't know of a more important issue now than getting the power of money in our system reduced so that the good of the nation comes ahead of short-sighted profits.

We need a movement to get rid of the 'corporation is a legal person' status.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Genx87
This is the shear stupidity of the ethanol industry.
Lets burn a bunch of natural gas or coal to make less efficient fuel for cars.

I cant imagine turning that coal into gas is any less efficient, but it doesnt subsidize the farmers.

Actually, farming for the first time in many, many years is starting to look like a profitable business again.

And its a double egded sword. While ethanol is a step in the right direction, its gonna hurt. As an example, a ethanol plant close to where I grew up took half of all the corn produced in something like 3 counties. Thats a HUGE amount of corn. And I know of something like 5 more plants going up in the area.

Point is, the move to ethanol will make crop prices skyrocket. Almost every crop is up at least 50% per bushel if not much more. The downside is, your everyday Joe is going to feel it in the grocery store and wonder why his food is getting so expensive.


I dont see how burning coal to make ethanol so we can put it into our vehicles and get 25% less gas mileage for the same price as gasoline is a step in the right direction. Especially since it isnt even cheaper and is subsidized to the hilt. You take the subsidies off this dud and there is no way this would stand a chance in the current marketplace.


 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Genx87
This is the shear stupidity of the ethanol industry.
Lets burn a bunch of natural gas or coal to make less efficient fuel for cars.

I cant imagine turning that coal into gas is any less efficient, but it doesnt subsidize the farmers.

Actually, farming for the first time in many, many years is starting to look like a profitable business again.

And its a double egded sword. While ethanol is a step in the right direction, its gonna hurt. As an example, a ethanol plant close to where I grew up took half of all the corn produced in something like 3 counties. Thats a HUGE amount of corn. And I know of something like 5 more plants going up in the area.

Point is, the move to ethanol will make crop prices skyrocket. Almost every crop is up at least 50% per bushel if not much more. The downside is, your everyday Joe is going to feel it in the grocery store and wonder why his food is getting so expensive.


I dont see how burning coal to make ethanol so we can put it into our vehicles and get 25% less gas mileage for the same price as gasoline is a step in the right direction. Especially since it isnt even cheaper and is subsidized to the hilt. You take the subsidies off this dud and there is no way this would stand a chance in the current marketplace.

Didn't you know that the US has enough coal for the next 250+ years? Geez it's getting cleaner all the time, you need to watch more of industry ads made by energy companies. Those kids are so cute and they know a lot about CLEAN energy!!!

In fact the entire ad campaign makes me warm and fuzzy inside, awww :heart:
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Yes, HFCS is heavily subsidized to be cheap, while cane sugar is protected to be expensive. This is fact. This is why America is the only nation on earth that uses HFCS more than sugar.

Ethanol (C2H6O) is essentially the oxygenated room temperature liquid version of the alkane hydrocarbon, ethane (C2H6). As ethane is a main component in almost all fossil fuel sources (i.e. oil and coal, but especially natural gas), it is easy to make ethanol from them. However, the idea is to find a way to have ethanol be a renewable fuel, and not just another fossil fuel derivative.
 

newmachineoverlord

Senior member
Jan 22, 2006
484
0
0
Obviously coal is only a short term energy solution, and releases terrible quantities of carbon dioxide, sulfur, and mercury. The simple solution is a carbon tax, sulfur tax, and mercury tax. All those pollutants could be reclaimed at the source (most of them for a modest cost) if there was an economic incentive to do so. Such taxes should be high enough to internalize the externalities.

The obvious and immediate benefit of using coal to provide the energy for the distillation step of ethanol purification is that coal is not made from oil, and has relatively stable low prices and high domestic production. Using coal to provide energy for transportation provides a badly needed alternative to oil. Natural gas prices are also volatile and are far more intertwined with oil prices due to their position in the home heating market. Less than 16% of the energy used in producing ethanol comes from oil, so it is a very effective method at diversifying the transportation energy portfolio. Ethanol could be made entirely using renewable energy, but coal prices are artificially low due to subsidies and lack of internalization of the cost of negative externalities.

Regarding use of ethanol in transport, the higher octane rating of ethanol allows for the use of higher compression rations, and greater overall energy efficiency. MIT has designed an engine with 30% greater fuel efficiency by taking advantage of ethanol. Laying the groundwork for ethanol distribution and production now will allow far superior fuel efficiency in 2010 when vehicles based on the MIT design finally reach the market. The reduced mileage in current vehicles is simply because they are optimized for gasoline, not ethanol. http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/engine.html

There was a recent discover article about clean coal, and it wouldn't be that hard to make coal burning much less harmful. If this was done, then the real problem would be that it's a nonrenewable resource, and we should be eliminating dependencies on nonrenewable resources. http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-06/features/clean-coal-technology/

So what measures do you think would be best to support renewable energy? A net carbon tax is the most obvious, with allowances for carbon trading so that a company could create forests to offset emissions. A graduated permanent increase in the carbon tax over fifty years would send the proper signal to investors to side with renewables, while avoiding sudden price shocks.

Edit: Corrected in response to cyclowizard's coherent, factually based, well reasoned and explained post below. Even a very large cost for removing mercury could potentially be dwarfed by negative health effects and decreased product value to the fishing industry of coal induced mercury contamination. Mercury levels of the pregnant mother have been shown to be negatively correlated with the child's IQ, so to some extent coal may be blamed for the dumbing down of _____. The economic impact of this effect defies accurate estimation. IMHO the whole coal industry should truly be taxed out of existence, but gradually (30-100 years) so that alternatives can be made economically.

The problem of measuring low concentration contaminants is a pervasive one in environmental regulation, and the methods of dealing with this problem have thus far been often flawed. One method to be avoided is assuming a certain level above the measurement threshold if none is detected, as this discourages further improvements below the base measurement threshold.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Oh goody, it seems the that Tom Vilsack, Democratic Governor of.......IOWA.... just announced he is running for President.
He says his qualification is he helped get corn turned into ethanol.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,966
5,052
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Genx87
This is the shear stupidity of the ethanol industry.
Lets burn a bunch of natural gas or coal to make less efficient fuel for cars.

I cant imagine turning that coal into gas is any less efficient, but it doesnt subsidize the farmers.

Actually, farming for the first time in many, many years is starting to look like a profitable business again.

And its a double egded sword. While ethanol is a step in the right direction, its gonna hurt. As an example, a ethanol plant close to where I grew up took half of all the corn produced in something like 3 counties. Thats a HUGE amount of corn. And I know of something like 5 more plants going up in the area.

Point is, the move to ethanol will make crop prices skyrocket. Almost every crop is up at least 50% per bushel if not much more. The downside is, your everyday Joe is going to feel it in the grocery store and wonder why his food is getting so expensive.


I dont see how burning coal to make ethanol so we can put it into our vehicles and get 25% less gas mileage for the same price as gasoline is a step in the right direction. Especially since it isnt even cheaper and is subsidized to the hilt. You take the subsidies off this dud and there is no way this would stand a chance in the current marketplace.

It's not the same price as gasoline, it's 30 to 75 cents cheaper per gallon in most states.

I am sure you are aware that it takes energy to pump, refine and transport petroleum as well.

It also may surprise you that gasoline in the U.S. is "subsidized to the hilt".
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
Obviously coal is only a short term energy solution, and releases terrible quantities of carbon dioxide, sulfur, and mercury. The simple solution is a carbon tax, sulfur tax, and mercury tax. All those pollutants could be reclaimed at the source for a modest cost if there was an economic incentive to do so. Such taxes should be high enough to internalize the externalities.
Huh? I don't think so. Mercury is emitted at such low concentrations that measuring it is extremely difficult. In fact, one of my friends here just finished a masters thesis on how to do it. Removing something on the part-per-trillion level is ridiculously complex, as traditional mass transfer operations don't work well, since they rely on concentration gradients as the driving force. Since 10^-12 is pretty close to 0, there's not much of a concentration gradient to work with. The solution my department is working on involves capturing the mercury using nanoparticles (which must be synthesized, then added to the furnace). This is not a modest cost when one considers how much coal is burned and how much material would be used. In other words, the technology to do what you're suggesting does not exist yet, especially not for a cost-effective solution.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
Obviously coal is only a short term energy solution, and releases terrible quantities of carbon dioxide, sulfur, and mercury. The simple solution is a carbon tax, sulfur tax, and mercury tax. All those pollutants could be reclaimed at the source for a modest cost if there was an economic incentive to do so. Such taxes should be high enough to internalize the externalities.
Huh? I don't think so. Mercury is emitted at such low concentrations that measuring it is extremely difficult. In fact, one of my friends here just finished a masters thesis on how to do it. Removing something on the part-per-trillion level is ridiculously complex, as traditional mass transfer operations don't work well, since they rely on concentration gradients as the driving force. Since 10^-12 is pretty close to 0, there's not much of a concentration gradient to work with. The solution my department is working on involves capturing the mercury using nanoparticles (which must be synthesized, then added to the furnace). This is not a modest cost when one considers how much coal is burned and how much material would be used. In other words, the technology to do what you're suggesting does not exist yet, especially not for a cost-effective solution.


The good news is the current SO2 scrubbers catch alot of the mercury emissions. And alot of scrubbers are being installed due the new clear skies rules.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Skip the corn, go back to WWII Nazi technology and convert coal to liquid fuel.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
We should just feed corn to beasts of burden, and have those beasts power a generator, and use the electricity to make hydrogen from water to power the hydrogen bmw.
That means we would be powering the BMW with corn :D
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont see how burning coal to make ethanol so we can put it into our vehicles and get 25% less gas mileage for the same price as gasoline is a step in the right direction. Especially since it isnt even cheaper and is subsidized to the hilt. You take the subsidies off this dud and there is no way this would stand a chance in the current marketplace.

The reasoning is that it makes the gas burn cleaner, and produces less smog-forming, or toxic pollutants and helps catalytic converters work more efficiently.

For a number of years, gas manufacturers have been mandated to add 'oxygenates' to their fuel in order to improve combustion quality. The favored additive has been MTBE (methyl-tert-butyl ether) - this worked well, but unfortunately it's highly toxic, carcinogenic and has a tendency to leak out of storage tanks and into groundwater.

Because of this, most States have now banned the use of MTBE, so gas companies are looking very hard for alternatives - and the number 2 choice is ethanol. Low toxicity, biodegradeable and not too expensive - unfortunately, it's not as effective as MTBE, so you need loads of it - and it carries much less energy than gas, so mileage isn't as good.

Although corn ethanol has a lot of political talk, most people in the industry realise that trying to make ethanol from corn is essentially wasted effort - the amount of effort needed, and the value of the product is only viable in the presence of low corn prices and subsidies. However, ethanol is easily and cheaply made from coal or Nat gas - and without the supply issues and logistical problems of corn.