CNG

[NeoV]

By now we've all seen and heard the commercials about the alleged good things that come with using Compressed Natural Gas as fuel for our cars/trucks.

90% less pollution prodcued
about 50% cheaper to buy
abundant supply right here in America


So where is the catch? What are McCain and Obama's views on this?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: NeoV
-snip-
So where is the catch?

Conversion costs for vehicles.

Lack of refuelling stations etc.

Fern

 

[andy04]

Originally posted by: NeoV
By now we've all seen and heard the commercials about the alleged good things that come with using Compressed Natural Gas as fuel for our cars/trucks.

90% less pollution prodcued
about 50% cheaper to buy
abundant supply right here in America


So where is the catch? What are McCain and Obama's views on this?

their campaigns are financed by Oild giants and bio fuel companies. If we use CNG the foreign oil companies who have Billions or trillions invested in US will be very disappointed. CNG is what the common ppl want not the politicians so just forget about it...
Even if some starts it the govt will come down it such legislation in the name of safety concerns that the project will be doomed.

 

[andy04]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: NeoV
-snip-
So where is the catch?

Conversion costs for vehicles.

Lack of refuelling stations etc.

Fern

conversion costs very less one in large scale it will probably be around 500

Propane tanks are available everywhere and lots of Cabs run on them

 

[frostedflakes]

To me, it doesn't make much sense to retool our infrastructure for another fossil fuel. Granted, CNG has some advantages as a transitional fuel, for example, I think it's possible to use existing residential gas lines for vehicle refueling. But people would still have to buy a new car or get their current vehicle converted. If we're going to go through the effort, why not go all out and just switch to biofuels?

 

[GTKeeper]

The oil companies don't like the idea...

It can definitely be brought on slowly... look at countries in Europe that are using gas. In Poland where I am from originally, gas is a pretty big hit and it was implemented quickly. The key was that you don't replace gasoline stations with CNG stations, but you add CNG stations so people still have a choice. Then let the market figure it out.

Old crappy 10 year old Polish cars were easily convertable to CNG for about 1,000-2,000 a pop. Taxi drivers made their money back in 1 year.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
To me, it doesn't make much sense to retool our infrastructure for another fossil fuel. Granted, CNG has some advantages as a transitional fuel, for example, I think it's possible to use existing residential gas lines for vehicle refueling. But people would still have to buy a new car or get their current vehicle converted. If we're going to go through the effort, why not go all out and just switch to biofuels?

You don't need to retool anything. Just add CNG stations.... tanks don't have to be stored underground.

Biofuels are much more costly than CNG, and conversion costs of existing cars are small.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
To me, it doesn't make much sense to retool our infrastructure for another fossil fuel. Granted, CNG has some advantages as a transitional fuel, for example, I think it's possible to use existing residential gas lines for vehicle refueling. But people would still have to buy a new car or get their current vehicle converted. If we're going to go through the effort, why not go all out and just switch to biofuels?

Home CNG refueling takes over night, you need high preassure compressors to do quick fueling (I owned a CNG car for years, sold it when I moved to San Diego as it doesnt have the infrastructure that LA does for CNG).

As for biofules, they are all currently very very evil. Bio-engineered algea is very promissing but a decade out. All the others are causing problems as food stock becomes more valuable as energy and is driving up food prices globally.

 

[cliftonite]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: NeoV
-snip-
So where is the catch?

Conversion costs for vehicles.

Lack of refuelling stations etc.

Fern

Can a CNG vehicle be refueled at home (provided there is an existing gas line)?

 

[frostedflakes]

Cellulosic ethanol doesn't affect the price of food and is viable right now. Current production cost is about $2.25/gal I think, but economics of scale should bring it down (a lot of the current plants are still pilot-scale). It's expected to cost $1/gal by 2012. And it will only get cheaper as we figure out more efficient ways to convert biomass to fuel, whereas fossil fuels will get more expensive because they are a finite resource.

That's why it doesn't make sense to me. Let's say we invest heavily in converting America to CNG, and 10 years down the road when it's finally done, we hit peak natural gas and are now in the same boat, scrambling for a new fuel.

I have no problem with letting the market pursue natural gas if they want to, I just don't think the government should be encouraging it as part of their energy policy, as it's a step backwards IMO.

 

[bsobel]

Can a CNG vehicle be refueled at home (provided there is an existing gas line)?

Home refueling systems exist, they load about the equivalent of a gallon per hour (home gas lines are very low preassure, so the equipment has to preassurize and fill tanks at typically 3600psi). Google for Fuelmaker, they are one of the larger manfuacturers of such units.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Cellulosic ethanol doesn't affect the price of food and is viable right now. Current production cost is about $2.25/gal I think, but economics of scale should bring it down (a lot of the current plants are still pilot-scale). It's expected to cost $1/gal by 2012.

The 2.25 price is equivlaent to oil at $120bp. As far at the $1 by 2012, that is a research target, not a production target. Its a good technology, but its also a decade out in high volume.

 

[frostedflakes]

An engine designed for ethanol can achieve fuel economy similar to gasoline engines. Their lower energy density is only part of the equation -- Alcohols have properties that allow them to be burned more efficiently than gasoline. For example, you can run alcohol fuels at some pretty insane compression ratios.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: andy04

Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

conversion costs very less one in large scale it will probably be around 500

Propane tanks are available everywhere and lots of Cabs run on them

If you're trying to say that conversion costs will fall to $500, I have a hard time believing that.

The gas tank must be removed, and the other tanks purchased and installed etc. I can't see that being done that cheaply.

If you just wanna throw a tank in your existing trunk, might be cheaper but your range will be rather limited (and trunk space limited).

Fern

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: andy04

Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

conversion costs very less one in large scale it will probably be around 500

Propane tanks are available everywhere and lots of Cabs run on them

If you're trying to say that conversion costs will fall to $500, I have a hard time believing that.

The gas tank must be removed, and the other tanks purchased and installed etc. I can't see that being done that cheaply.

If you just wanna throw a tank in your existing trunk, might be cheaper but your range will be rather limited (and trunk space limited).

Fern

I spent about 2k ADDING 3 additional tanks to a factory CNG vehicle. The delta is about 3-5k on average for conversion. No way it falls to $500 as the tanks are just too heavy (need beefer suspension) and too expensive for that to happen.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
An engine designed for ethanol can achieve fuel economy similar to gasoline engines. Their lower energy density is only part of the equation -- Alcohols have properties that allow them to be burned more efficiently than gasoline. For example, you can run alcohol fuels at some pretty insane compression ratios.

Yep, a lot of tuners have switched to E85 so they can run their turbos at insane boost levels. E85 has lower energy density but is 105 octane.


Converting a regular gas engine car to CNG is no big deal. A couple tanks in the trunk (lose some trunk space) and new fuel lines, then hacking the ECU.

 

[Drako]

Isn't the biggest issue with CNG the safety issue? I thought that was the biggest stumbling block.

 

[piasabird]

In South America some countries have cars that run on both Gas and Propane. They made it a law that cars had to made dual use.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: piasabird
In South America some countries have cars that run on both Gas and Propane. They made it a law that cars had to made dual use.

Duel gas/cng are also available in the US. They were very common in AZ for some time as their was tax benefits to buying them (even if the owner only still used gas only, which kinda defeated the point of the program)

 

[Drakkon]

See what happened in AZ:
http://www.stateline.org/live/...geId=1&contentId=14196
It was a poorly managed program but it was enough to scare the rest of the states away from offering a similar deal. It set back CNG in very significant ways. However it got a few people I know really nice trucks back in the late 90's and had them converted to use CNG (which they never use) and regular fuel - ended up getting back like $5k in tax credits for it.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Drako
Isn't the biggest issue with CNG the safety issue? I thought that was the biggest stumbling block.

No, its generally considered safer than gas vehicles. The tanks are tough and CNG only ignites at certain densities. In a bad accident the gas tends to simply dissipate unlike gas which doesnt and tends to ignite.

 

[bsobel]

Converting a regular gas engine car to CNG is no big deal. A couple tanks in the trunk (lose some trunk space) and new fuel lines, then hacking the ECU.

True its straightforward, but its generally tanks, lines, filler, suspension, ecu to make it all work. Those tanks are *heavy* especially if you have enough to get decent range (with the added 3 tanks I got about 280 miles range, base range was about 140 miles).

Bill

 

[racolvin]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Converting a regular gas engine car to CNG is no big deal. A couple tanks in the trunk (lose some trunk space) and new fuel lines, then hacking the ECU.

True its straightforward, but its generally tanks, lines, filler, suspension, ecu to make it all work. Those tanks are *heavy* especially if you have enough to get decent range (with the added 3 tanks I got about 280 miles range, base range was about 140 miles).

Bill

Good heavens, what size tanks were they? I mean 4 tanks / 280 miles range is just 70 miles per tank...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: piasabird
In South America some countries have cars that run on both Gas and Propane. They made it a law that cars had to made dual use.

Duel gas/cng are also available in the US. They were very common in AZ for some time as their was tax benefits to buying them (even if the owner only still used gas only, which kinda defeated the point of the program)

Brazil even has cars the next generation beyond Flex-Fuel, and can run straight gas, E25, E85, E100, or CNG.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
The oil companies don't like the idea...

It can definitely be brought on slowly... look at countries in Europe that are using gas. In Poland where I am from originally, gas is a pretty big hit and it was implemented quickly. The key was that you don't replace gasoline stations with CNG stations, but you add CNG stations so people still have a choice. Then let the market figure it out.

Old crappy 10 year old Polish cars were easily convertable to CNG for about 1,000-2,000 a pop. Taxi drivers made their money back in 1 year.

So how many vehicles are there in the US? Can't wait to see the government bill on that one.

Hmm, I wonder what type of buisness good ole mr. pickens runs.