CNet - "Perspective: It's back to school for IT"

[acole1]

It's back to school for IT

I thought you all might be interested in this article and the thought provoking comments made by some readers at the end.

It seems like all Mr. Blake is saying is that CS is an outdated degree, and that IS (Info. Systems) would be a better choice, although he doesn't realize that is what he is saying. Instead, he attempts to validate CS as directly viable to business development, if only we could change it....

In CS, all students are learning is coding and theory, whereas in IS you get a full blown business degree, and a healthy dose of programming and systems knowledge as well. How can you even start to know how to integrate a system when you don't know how a business works?

This is where CS is a failure. It is a specialized, technical degree, and IS's job is to use these CS people to create systems that work together for the good of the business. IMO there is no use trying to morph a CS degree into a more "business friendly" degree, because such a degree already exists!

CS = code junkie
IS = use code from code junkie to work into buis. goals

If you start to blend these two degrees you will lose the specialization each one offers. One person cannot write the code and figure out how to integrate it into the highly complex business structure in the best way possible.

It's like having the accountant ordering servers... sure he knows what fits into the budget, but he has no idea what the needs of the company are concerning server hardware.

Well I'm sure I have stirred up quite a hatred for myself, so I will end now.
Those of you who might be more experienced on this issue, please enlighten me on your perspectives. Your comments will be taken with an extremely large grain of salt.

*puts on flame suit*

So...
Can/should CS by melded into IS to form a single business friendly unit?
Or do they need to be kept separate so each can specialize in his/her own area?

 

[Jack Ryan]

There will always be problems when resources are looked at by their degree rather than the individual.

 

[Blazin Trav]

Well I guess that's one way to look at it...

 

[spidey07]

Not really. You still need code monkeys to do the code. They serve their purpose.

Modern IT has really invovled into it's own strategic business unit.

 

[acole1]

Very true... some people have different skill sets.

Job skills are more like a spectrum than black and white, this skill or that skill.

 

[yllus]

*snorts* Mr. Blake is full of it.

I'll be the first to say that the vast majority of programming jobs could be filled with technically competent monkeys. That said, I find the vast majority of "IT professionals" whose education was meant to blend business principles with a technical background actually end up halfassing both sides of their supposed skillset. The real jewel is the person who's properly and thoroughly schooled with a Computer Science degree - yes, that includes years of learning theory that has no direct application to the real world - who then has the presence of mind to translate over that knowledge when confronted with a business objective.

Comp sci programs should stay comp sci programs, and business programs should stay business programs. I have yet to see a workable blending of the two programs accomplished in a four-year degree.

 

[razor2025]

or.. just diversify your own diploma. My plan is to get certificate from my school's management school along with my major in CS. I like some CS, but I rather not be 100% code monkey. I also have interest in business and social studies, so it really depends on the person.

 

[AbsolutDealage]

What's with all the bad-mouthing the programmers in this thread? Anyways...

At least where I went to school, it went something like this: You start off in Computer/Electrical Engineering. Those that can't hack it drop down to a CS degree. Those that can't hack that move down to an IT degree. The IT degree almost seemed like a joke. Only a very few people chose that degree out of the box... many of them were forced into it by not being up to the challenge of a more technical major.

So, you either end up with a person who wanted to get a Business degree, but skip some of the classes in favor of some first year programming classes, or you get a person who couldn't hack it in CE/CS and decided to try and put those wasted credits towards a degree. Not a good combo if you ask me.

If you really want to be a manager in an IT organization, then have at it... I know I don't want anything to do with it. In any case, I'm happy handling the code and leaving the "business" to others.

 

[acole1]

Originally posted by: AbsolutDealage
What's with all the bad-mouthing the programmers in this thread? Anyways...

At least where I went to school, it went something like this: You start off in Computer/Electrical Engineering. Those that can't hack it drop down to a CS degree. Those that can't hack that move down to an IT degree. The IT degree almost seemed like a joke. Only a very few people chose that degree out of the box... many of them were forced into it by not being up to the challenge of a more technical major.

So, you either end up with a person who wanted to get a Business degree, but skip some of the classes in favor of some first year programming classes, or you get a person who couldn't hack it in CE/CS and decided to try and put those wasted credits towards a degree. Not a good combo if you ask me.

If you really want to be a manager in an IT organization, then have at it... I know I don't want anything to do with it. In any case, I'm happy handling the code and leaving the "business" to others.

I might fall into your "couldn't make it" group (if you can call it that) and that is why I am going for an IS degree (not an IT degree ).

I started in CSE, but I really just didn't want to do the math... it was a lot, and I didn't enjoy it. So why do something you don't enjoy? That's why I switched over... I wasn't some sort of "drop out" as the engineering folk like to paint us.

They like to think they are some sort of *elite group* since they have a technical degree... hate to break it to you, but you're not that special (Not you absolut, but others in your field).

A Buis degree is no piece of cake; I just enjoy it a lot more than I would have an engineering degree.

 

[imported_elwood]

I'm sure businesses would just love paying one person for the work of two people.

Kind of reminds me of a job listing on careerbuilders that was looking for a computer tech/programmer. HAH!

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: yllus
*snorts* Mr. Blake is full of it.

I'll be the first to say that the vast majority of programming jobs could be filled with technically competent monkeys. That said, I find the vast majority of "IT professionals" whose education was meant to blend business principles with a technical background actually end up halfassing both sides of their supposed skillset. The real jewel is the person who's properly and thoroughly schooled with a Computer Science degree - yes, that includes years of learning theory that has no direct application to the real world - who then has the presence of mind to translate over that knowledge when confronted with a business objective.

Comp sci programs should stay comp sci programs, and business programs should stay business programs. I have yet to see a workable blending of the two programs accomplished in a four-year degree.

I agree completely.

In my experience with CS and IS degrees, an IS degree is totally inadequate when it comes to enterprise software development. An IS degree will prepare you to be a business analyst for software projects, but you will not have the necessary skills to develop enterprise code.

Our company recruits heavily from colleges, and our focus for recruiting is to find bright, talented technical people with good communication skills. It is easier to teach a technical person business skills than it is to teach a business person coding skills.

That said, CS programs should integrate more business analysis and technical writing into their curricula. "Code monkeys" can be hired more easily and cheaply overseas; the true value in today's job market is a blend of technical competence with business and communication savvy.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MrChad
I agree completely.

In my experience with CS and IS degrees, an IS degree is totally inadequate when it comes to enterprise software development. An IS degree will prepare you to be a business analyst for software projects, but you will not have the necessary skills to develop enterprise code.

Our company recruits heavily from colleges, and our focus for recruiting is to find bright, talented technical people with good communication skills. It is easier to teach a technical person business skills than it is to teach a business person coding skills.

That said, CS programs should integrate more business analysis and technical writing into their curricula. "Code monkeys" can be hired more easily and cheaply overseas; the true value in today's job market is a blend of technical competence with business and communication savvy.

That's the whole point. CS doesn't teach this and gives a HUGE leg up on people pursuing an IS or MIS degree.

Basically the IS/MIS guy will be the boss of the CS. That's the pecking order.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: MrChad
I agree completely.

In my experience with CS and IS degrees, an IS degree is totally inadequate when it comes to enterprise software development. An IS degree will prepare you to be a business analyst for software projects, but you will not have the necessary skills to develop enterprise code.

Our company recruits heavily from colleges, and our focus for recruiting is to find bright, talented technical people with good communication skills. It is easier to teach a technical person business skills than it is to teach a business person coding skills.

That said, CS programs should integrate more business analysis and technical writing into their curricula. "Code monkeys" can be hired more easily and cheaply overseas; the true value in today's job market is a blend of technical competence with business and communication savvy.

That's the whole point. CS doesn't teach this and gives a HUGE leg up on people pursuing an IS or MIS degree.

Basically the IS/MIS guy will be the boss of the CS. That's the pecking order.

It all depends on how you focus your career. I graduated in CS and now I lead teams of both BAs and programmers. I started my career with my technical skills, but that's not how I'm going to finish it.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: yllus
*snorts* Mr. Blake is full of it.

I'll be the first to say that the vast majority of programming jobs could be filled with technically competent monkeys. That said, I find the vast majority of "IT professionals" whose education was meant to blend business principles with a technical background actually end up halfassing both sides of their supposed skillset. The real jewel is the person who's properly and thoroughly schooled with a Computer Science degree - yes, that includes years of learning theory that has no direct application to the real world - who then has the presence of mind to translate over that knowledge when confronted with a business objective.

Comp sci programs should stay comp sci programs, and business programs should stay business programs. I have yet to see a workable blending of the two programs accomplished in a four-year degree.

I agree completely.

In my experience with CS and IS degrees, an IS degree is totally inadequate when it comes to enterprise software development. An IS degree will prepare you to be a business analyst for software projects, but you will not have the necessary skills to develop enterprise code.

Our company recruits heavily from colleges, and our focus for recruiting is to find bright, talented technical people with good communication skills. It is easier to teach a technical person business skills than it is to teach a business person coding skills.

That said, CS programs should integrate more business analysis and technical writing into their curricula. "Code monkeys" can be hired more easily and cheaply overseas; the true value in today's job market is a blend of technical competence with business and communication savvy.

I was going to say much the same thing as you guys. I don't think somebody that hasn't been "in the trenches" will be able to provide good leadership in a tech-oriented company. It isn't a coincidence that successful tech companies have a culture which exalts the true geek/techie. And lets not forget the fact that pretty much all startups are founded by techies who decided they'd build a decent product and figure out the pesky business thing later on.

It all comes down to the fact that understanding business needs is far easier than aquiring a proper, rigorous technical background.

 

[jaybert]

how did i know that when I read the thread title you would be posting in it? I like how you can generalize ALL CS degrees.

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: MrChad
I agree completely.

In my experience with CS and IS degrees, an IS degree is totally inadequate when it comes to enterprise software development. An IS degree will prepare you to be a business analyst for software projects, but you will not have the necessary skills to develop enterprise code.

Our company recruits heavily from colleges, and our focus for recruiting is to find bright, talented technical people with good communication skills. It is easier to teach a technical person business skills than it is to teach a business person coding skills.

That said, CS programs should integrate more business analysis and technical writing into their curricula. "Code monkeys" can be hired more easily and cheaply overseas; the true value in today's job market is a blend of technical competence with business and communication savvy.

That's the whole point. CS doesn't teach this and gives a HUGE leg up on people pursuing an IS or MIS degree.

Basically the IS/MIS guy will be the boss of the CS. That's the pecking order.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Not really. You still need code monkeys to do the code. They serve their purpose.

Modern IT has really involved into it's own strategic business unit.

Most of the entry level code monkey jobs are heading overseas, though. If you're looking for an entry level tech job when you get out of college, IS might be a better choice.

That said, I still think that you're better off with a Marketing or Management degree. The tech industry just isn't as fun as it was during the dot-com boom.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: jaybert
how did i know that when I read the thread title you would be posting in it? I like how you can generalize ALL CS degrees.

Sorry. It's the truth. I've dealt with many CS guys that just simply cannot and will not "get it". They are ineffective with dealing with people, delegating, understanding organational strucutre, politics, the needs of the business, etc.

Sure there are exceptions the to rule. But you cannot deny the lack of basic professional skills neccessary for graduates in the IT field.

Wanna be a code monkey? Do CS.

Want to make a ton of money? Go IS/IT.

By the way, I'm CS/EE. I agree that the degree programs haven't kept up with the market. This is the shift that's been happening over the last 5 years after Y2K.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

business people are WORTHLESS without technical people to actually do the work

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
business people are WORTHLESS without technical people to actually do the work

true, but the business people make a whole lot more money and pay the technical people peanuts. Being a technical person will not get you very far.

 

[Stuxnet]

It would be a waste of time for someone with a CS degree to go back to school to get a degree in IS. NO COMPANY is going to give a crap about the distinction between the two.

That said, it would be much more beneficial for someone with a CS degree to instead go to graduate school and get an MBA. THAT is a killer combo.

 

[eakers]

Sadly, I deal better with code than people.

 

[Auryg]

Luckily my school allows you to specialize how you want - medical, business, math and theory oriented, and web development.

There are core classes and then you have to choose your specialty. I think it's a great system, and allows students to have a niche.

You can also make your own specialty, which is what I think i'll do- a mix of business and web development.

 

[mugs]

I have a degree in computer science with a focus in Business Information Systems. I had to take over 40 credits in IS-related classes. So take THAT, JACK

 

[acemcmac]

Originally posted by: mugs
I have a degree in computer science with a focus in Business Information Systems. I had to take over 40 credits in IS-related classes. So take THAT, JACK

Same. CS major + Econ minor.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
business people are WORTHLESS without technical people to actually do the work

true, but the business people make a whole lot more money and pay the technical people peanuts. Being a technical person will not get you very far.

Dude, we're talking about education here, not careers. The 'business side' you talk so much about can be picked up very quickly by any competent person during their normal work. If they want to and are suited for it, a technical person can easily move into management and be much more successful than someone with cursory, theoretical knowledge of the technical concept.

That was certainly true in the last place I worked, where every director and VP I knew of in charge of any part of the actual product (Blackberry) was either an engineering or a CS grad. And that is certainly the true in the tech industry as a whole, where the vast majority of successful companies were started by techies.
http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/18/egan-r...nology_06egang_cx_mn_0818techrich.html


My point is, if you want to work in the tech industry, get a good tech education. If you're suited to it and it interests you, you can easily make the jump to management, and if not, you can still do well being a techie. But there is no need to waste precious time and money on a substandard education.