(Cleric of) New President of Egypt: "Our Capital 'Shall Be Jerusalem, Allah Willing"

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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,423
8,090
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And therefor we are not allowed to criticize or condemn it? You know, I strongly disagree with that position. It's not our decision, but in a globalized world, it will affect us. It definitely will affect women's rights and those few, young political activists that actually started the Arab Spring.

I think that sucks, I'm sorry if you don't.

So what? We should decide for them?

Most of the world has quite strong feelings about American politics but I don't see you taking those into account (and you shouldn't).

A country can't grow as a democracy unless you give it the freedom and time to do so.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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So what? We should decide for them?

Most of the world has quite strong feelings about American politics but I don't see you taking those into account (and you shouldn't).

A country can't grow as a democracy unless you give it the freedom and time to do so.

Did you notice Pingvin is from Sweden? I don't think he's saying the west should decide for the Arab world, he's just saying it's a bad sign.
 

Karl Agathon

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2010
1,081
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If you want to bet on that outcome (or even just Egypt declaring war in general), please PM me. I'll give very favorable odds.

I know some Israel haters are deeply immersed in a collective circle jerk orgasm thinking that Egypt will now decalre war against Israel. I wonder if they have taken into account that Israel might umm well, actually fight back? Or maybe that doesnt fit into their Jew annihilation fantasies.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
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I know some Israel haters are deeply immersed in a collective circle jerk orgasm thinking that Egypt will now decalre war against Israel. I wonder if they have taken into account that Israel might umm well, actually fight back? Or maybe that doesnt fit into their Jew annihilation fantasies.

You hang out on Stormfront?
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
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So what? We should decide for them?

So what? I think I made my point: I do not like the idea of theocracies, they usually end up being undemocratic. I wish the Egyptians would postpone the election for a year or two and allow real political parties to form. The choice was between a relic of the old regime or an Islamist. Obviously, 49% of the eligible voters thought it was enough of a farce to not bother. Can it still be called a democratic election?

Most of the world has quite strong feelings about American politics but I don't see you taking those into account (and you shouldn't).

I'm Swedish, that makes me genetically unable to appreciate American foreign politics.

A country can't grow as a democracy unless you give it the freedom and time to do so.

And if the "democratically elected" (51% of those eligible to vote votes) take those freedoms away? What if the new regime doesn't respect human rights? What if minorities such as Christians and Jews no longer are welcome to practice their believes in their own country? What if women are turned into Saudi-style second citizens? You know, just because people are allowed to vote doesn't guarantee everything is fine.

A bad sign of what?

Of what happens when a region that is so dominated by religion gets the choice of a military regime or becoming an Islamist theocracy.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,368
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So what? We should decide for them?

Most of the world has quite strong feelings about American politics but I don't see you taking those into account (and you shouldn't).

A country can't grow as a democracy unless you give it the freedom and time to do so.

And how far should those freedoms extend? I think most people would look poorly on Germany if they said their Capital should be Paris, on Russia if they said their capital should be Berlin, on North Korea if they said their Capital should be Seoul. IMO the allowed freedom to grown should not be so encompassing that it includes threatening nearby countries.

Unless they get a free pass because its Israel?
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,717
874
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Well thankfully, at least for now, the Muslim Brotherhood does not have control of the military. I hope it stays that way. But regardless, what kind of statement is that for a new president to make? It's practically a declaration of war.

How is renaming their capital a declaration of war? :sneaky:

He did say god willing, so they probably just sit back and see if god gives them Jerusalem. If not oh well.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Of what happens when a region that is so dominated by religion gets the choice of a military regime or becoming an Islamist theocracy.

The US was dominated by religion for a very long time and we were never a theocracy or military dictatorship (civil war emergency powers are different).
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
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You're right, they should cease to exist. I'm sure they'll get right on that for you and Egypt.



I guess we need more carriers in the Mediterranean.

The enterprize is stationed there now isn't it? I figured it was stationed in the kill zone just for that purpose to be killed. Its the ship that would create the most hype.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
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This part of the world is a joke a burden to humanity. Sad part it is the truth is right in front of any who look . Rockchild. has zero hebrew bloodlines. He is however a Jew/ SO the State of Israel is a religious state a zionist state. The Names are familiar.

http://jubilee2012.50webs.com/war.htm
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,591
474
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woooo democrocy!

More a matter of us turning a blind eye toward Hosni Mubarak's anti-democratic abuses then when he gets thrown out...

People aren't going to vote for any candidate who is even remotely friendly to the west because after all we (on some level) let them have Mubarak for decades, and it tasted like shit.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

  • 22px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png
    Egypt – Egyptian Army: 1,005 M1A1s. Tanks co-produced by the US and Egypt for the Egyptian army.[79] Another 125 Tanks have been ordered.[80]



Which means nothing unless you have soldiers that are tactically and technically proficient,

not only in their use but also in the required maintenance and upkeep of the complex systems in that tank as well as having access to the necessary logistics in order to do so,

not just during wartime but also during peacetime were training realistically is paramount.

Why Arabs Lose Wars
September 2, 2002
At lot has been written lately about why Arab armies so consistently lose wars with non-Arabs. These reasons also explain why Arab nations, and many other Third World nations as well, also have trouble establishing democratic governments or prosperous economies. A lot of it has to do with culture, especially culture influenced by Islam. Some of the reasons for these failures are;

  • Most Arab countries are a patchwork of different tribes and groups, and Arab leaders survive by playing one group off against another. Loyalty is to one's group, not the nation. Most countries are dominated by a single group that is usually a minority (Bedouins in Jordan, Alawites in Syria, Sunnis in Iraq, Nejdis in Saudi Arabia). All of which means that officers are assigned not by merit but by loyalty and tribal affiliation.
  • Islamic schools favor rote memorization, especially of scripture. Most Islamic scholars are hostile to the concept of interpreting the Koran (considered the word of God as given to His prophet Mohammed). This has resulted in looking down on Western troops that will look something up that they don't know. Arabs prefer to fake it, and pretend it's all in their head. Improvisation and innovation is generally discouraged. Arab armies go by the book, Western armies rewrite the book and thus usually win.
  • There is no real NCO corps. Officers and enlisted troops are treated like two different social castes and there is no effort to bridge the gap using career NCOs. Enlisted personnel are treated harshly. Training accidents that would end the careers of US officers are commonplace in Arab armies, and nobody cares.
  • Officers are despised by their troops, and this does not bother the officers much it all. Many Arab officers simply cannot understand how treating the troops decently will make them better soldiers.
  • Paranoia prevents adequate training. Arab tyrants insist that their military units have little contact with each other, thus insuring that no general can became powerful enough to overthrow them. Units are purposely kept from working together or training on a large scale. Arab generals don't have as broad a knowledge of their armedforces as do their Western counterparts. Promotions are based more on political reliability than combat proficiency. Arab leaders prefer to be feared, rather than respected, by their soldiers. This approach leads to poorly trained armies and low morale. A few rousing speeches about "Moslem brotherhood" before a war starts does little to repair the damage.
  • Arab officers often do not trust each other. While an American infantry officer can be reasonably confident that the artillery officers will conduct their bombardment on time and on target, Arab infantry officers seriously doubt that their artillery will do its job on time or on target. This is a fatal attitude in combat.
  • Arab military leaders consider it acceptable to lie to subordinates and allies in order to further their personal agenda. This had catastrophic consequences during all of the Arab-Israeli wars and continues to make peace difficult between Israelis and Palestinians. When called out on this behavior, Arabs will assert that they were "misunderstood."
  • While American officers and NCOs are only too happy to impart their wisdom and skill to others (teaching is the ultimate expression of prestige), Arab officers try to keep any technical information and manuals secret. To Arabs, the value and prestige of an individual is based not on what he can teach, but on what he knows that no one else knows.
  • While American officers thrive on competition among themselves, Arab officers avoid this as the loser would be humiliated. Better for everyone to fail together than for competition to be allowed, even if it eventually benefits everyone.
  • Americans are taught leadership and technology; Arab officers are taught only technology. Leadership is given little attention as officers are assumed to know this by virtue of their social status as officers.
  • Initiative is considered a dangerous trait. So subordinates prefer to fail rather than make an independent decision. Battles are micromanaged by senior generals, who prefer to suffer defeat rather than lose control of their subordinates. Even worse, an Arab officer will not tell a US ally why he cannot make the decision (or even that he cannot make it), leaving US officers angry and frustrated because the Arabs won't make a decision. The Arab officers simply will not admit that they do not have that authority.
  • Lack of initiative makes it difficult for Arab armies to maintain modern weapons. Complex modern weapons require on the spot maintenance, and that means delegating authority, information, and tools. Arab armies avoid doing this and prefer to use easier to control central repair shops. This makes the timely maintenance of weapons difficult.
  • Security is maniacal. Everything even vaguely military is top secret. While US Army promotion lists are routinely published, this rarely happens in Arab armies. Officers are suddenly transferred without warning to keep them from forging alliances or networks. Any team spirit among officers is discouraged.
  • All these traits were reinforced, from the 1950s to the 1990s, by Soviet advisors. To the Russians, anything military was secret, enlisted personnel were scum, there was no functional NCO system, and everyone was paranoid about everyone else. These were not "communist" traits, but Russian customs that had existed for centuries and were adopted by the communists to make their dictatorship more secure from rebellion. Arab dictators avidly accepted this kind of advice, but are still concerned about how rapidly the communist dictatorships all came tumbling down between 1989-91.
Such a system can produce fearsome looking armies, but not a force that can survive an encounter with well trained and led soldiers.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
First of all, I totally reject and condemn any explanation for the fall of Mubarak being caused by some nebulous world wide Jewish conspiracy. As I believe its purely anti-Semitic hokum that has been responsible for a lot of mainly European Christian stinking thinking.

But still we can go back in world history some 3000 years and find that Egypt was one of the world dominant powers at the time. And ask why, what was true then, has never been true ever since? Maybe part of the cause may be climate change, as rain fall moved further north, as the rising power of first Greece and then Rome could support larger populations and hence armies. And then as the climate warmed to the North, most of Europe became potential farmland.

The we can say something else, while ancient Egypt was one of the first world nations to organize their people into a national workforce and start using engineering to build cities and monuments, Egyptian leaders wasted those efforts to build pyramids that really benefited no one. Not so with the rising power of Rome, as they built roads and aqueducts, and systems of trade to extend their empire. While the Roman legions already led the world on organized warfare. So even before the time of Christ, Egypt became a Roman possession.

Ever since, Egypt has never regained its former power, despite being the largest Arab nation blessed with Nile River that floods every year. Plus Egypt has the economic benefits of the Suez canal and has finally has completed the Azwan dam. And with good and wise leadership it is finally poised to become an economic powerhouse.

As we can also go back 60 years to Nassar, maybe a feel good leader for Egypt, as Nassar made a bid to lead the Arab world. But in so doing, Nassar over reached, and found himself on the wrong end of the US, the Brits, and France and set Egypt back decades as a result. And also found the Western powers backing Israel as a counter balance to Egypt.

As a result in terms of Western help and economic development aid to Egypt and its people, Israel was subsidized to the tune of many thousands of dollars per capita of population, while the Egyptian people got less than $8.00 a year per capita under the rule of Mubarak. And worse yet, Mubarak and his cronies pocketed any Western aid money and the Egyptian people never saw a penny of it.

Which largely explains why Murarak fell when the Arab spring occurred because greedy Hosni even forgot to enrich the Egyptian military. As we have to understand something else. Because the leaders of the street protests were largely young Western educated asking why the lootocracy of Murarak was not benefiting the people of Egypt as they wanted reforms. Nor were they all that anti-Semitic or pro-islmic, as their grievances were mainly economic. As their main agenda was Mubarak had to go. And they won when the Egyptian army refused to shoot their own people.

Sadly, IMHO, the young technocrats who lead the revolution and had the right ideas for the future, forgot to organize politically and offer a slate of election candidates. And as they instead rested on their laurels, it was Egyptian opportunity lost at least in the short term.

And as a result, the candidates who stood for election were mainly ex-Murarak toads, members of the formerly outlawed Muslim brotherhood, or even more extreme reactionary Salift Islamic nuts who also organized into a political party.

So given the basic fact that the Egyptian electorate will not vote to return to Mubarak type rule, the winner was going to be either a MB member or a even more nutty Salfist,

Cheer up, we could have gotten a Salfist. And who knows, if Mursi, as a formerly jailed head of state, can prove even to be even 25% as wise as Nelson Mandela, both Egypt and the larger mid-east will be better off for it.